Yellow Jacket Tower Squabble

[catbirdseat]

Except someone with experience will be able to pick an objective they are comfortable climbing and be able to make an assessment on there partners skill level after having a 5 minute conversation with them. The beginning mountaineers rely on the mountaineers to do that for them. On climbs that are to difficult for them to do without the "leader".

I might as well address Eric8's comment. The Everett Branch handles this differently than other branches. All climb signups are with the leader. No one can sign up for a climb unless the leader allows it. Leaders are encouraged to talk on the phone with the person to get a sense of their fitness to be on the climb.

 

Man, CBS, this does NOTHING as far as judging the LEADER...the noob is supposed to be a noob, duh!

Jeeze Rudy, communication on the telephone is two-way. What is to stop the student from asking questions of the leader? He might be a noob, but he can find out how many years experience a leader has, for example or whether the leader has done the route before.

 

Dude, if you go in for laser eye surgery, you don't know shit about being a doctor, do you? What kinds of questions do you ask?

[Off_White]

2. A beginner miltipitch does NOT exist. It's a freaking oxymoron.

 

Here's a route made to order by Kevin Pogue as a beginner multipitch. 5 (half rope) pitches of 5.7 face at Castle Rock Ranch (next to City of Rocks) with close regular bolt placements (you can see three below the climber in the photo).

 

[minx]

damn i'm exhausted from all that BS.

 

1) octavius, climb the damn climb and evaluate the protection when you get there.

 

2) to all those whining about this thread being disrespectful to the fallen climber--it's not. no one is critiquing his personal decsions or actions. it was a natural starting point for yet another holyfuckingdogawful thread about the mountaineers.

 

3) i've seen enough of the mountaineers to be scared. healthy respect for climbing is one thing, quivering intimidation is dangerous. i don't care how much gear you haul up the climb, a lack of ability to think independently and make decisions is dangerous.

 

3b) just b/c you've got a big group, your gaiters, your seattle sombrero, the latte from the north bend starbucks where you met your group of 30 to carpool to the TH for the tooth doesn't mean you're safe (to paraphrase someone).

 

4) Mister E--this is the petty squabble forum

 

5) why is zippering up an easy pitch on ingalls dangerous? it's not. being billed as a mentor and not being confident enough to climb ingalls with a reasonable amount of gear is. a newbie shouldn't be viewing this type of climber as mentor. this climber still needs a mentor and is still in the newbie phase him or herself. that's why it's dangerous. someone is relying too much on a rookie's judgements

 

6) i will never climb YJT just b/c it will remind me of this thread.

 

continue on-

[Off_White]

i will never climb YJT just b/c it will remind me of this thread.

 

Post of the day and it's not even 8:30 yet.

[tanstaafl]

You should spend 2 (or even 3) full season cleaning boatloads of gear behind an experienced leader before you even think about leading. period.

 

Yo Ross, you hear that? You should NOT be leading 5.11 gear routes, dude, you should STILL BE FOLLOWING!! Come down from there right now!

[minx]

i'm pretty sure that there are lots of people out there leading that are in total violation of korup's guidelines.

[RuMR]

Post deleted by RuMR

[RuMR]

damn i'm exhausted from all that BS.

 

1) octavius, climb the damn climb and evaluate the protection when you get there.

 

2) to all those whining about this thread being disrespectful to the fallen climber--it's not. no one is critiquing his personal decsions or actions. it was a natural starting point for yet another holyfuckingdogawful thread about the mountaineers.

 

3) i've seen enough of the mountaineers to be scared. healthy respect for climbing is one thing, quivering intimidation is dangerous. i don't care how much gear you haul up the climb, a lack of ability to think independently and make decisions is dangerous.

 

3b) just b/c you've got a big group, your gaiters, your seattle sombrero, the latte from the north bend starbucks where you met your group of 30 to carpool to the TH for the tooth doesn't mean you're safe (to paraphrase someone).

 

4) Mister E--this is the petty squabble forum

 

5) why is zippering up an easy pitch on ingalls dangerous? it's not. being billed as a mentor and not being confident enough to climb ingalls with a reasonable amount of gear is. a newbie shouldn't be viewing this type of climber as mentor. this climber still needs a mentor and is still in the newbie phase him or herself. that's why it's dangerous. someone is relying too much on a rookie's judgements

 

6) i will never climb YJT just b/c it will remind me of this thread.

 

continue on-

 

SPOT ON!

[TimL]

Two things people don't seem to realize:

1. Leading is not a beginner, or even novice, skill. You should spend 2 (or even 3) full season cleaning boatloads of gear behind an experienced leader before you even think about leading. period. Cams have made the process seem trivial, when there is considerable nuance and experience involved. It isn't differential equations or advanced aeronautical enginnering, but it is damn serious, and the margin for error is small.

2. A beginner miltipitch does NOT exist. It's a freaking oxymoron.

 

Holy shit, I guess you really need a margin for safety. Two or three seasons cleaning gear! Your crazy. I think this is how you advance from being a 5.3 gear leader to a 5.4c gear leader in just 5 years.

 

Think about when this sport started. Their were no safety measures, no helmets or belay devices. I for one started climbing outside. I followed one 5.6 pitch at Index. Then I lead it. Really, it wasn't that hard. By the end of the year I was leading 5.9 at Index, onsite. I'd hate to think were I would be if I followed someone for 2 or 3 years. Wow, thats a crazy statement. Grow some balls.

 

I think the most important aspect is developing your "lead head". The technical aspects of placing gear, especialy in granite, are fairly easy.

 

I do think the most important issue out of all of this is that the poor guy who had the accident has a speedy recovery. Its easy to spray on the net if your not the one in the hospital.

[olyclimber]

Hello, I'm from Colorado, and I'm looking to climb this Yellowjacket Tower. How many quickdraws I need to bring?

[minx]

just enough, but be sure not to bring too many or you'll be wrong

[mattp]

Mountie bashing is great sport and all, but there are a couple of points I think have been underemphasized here:

 

(1) This and most similar accidents seem to happen on non-technical or vaguely technical terrain where rock climbing prowess is not much of a factor. I have seen plenty of strong rock climbers who could not safely navigate a messy gully or slippery slab and who would have NO business leading a group of inexperienced clmbers on such terrain.

 

(2) In this particular instance, we still don't really know if anybody did anything any of us would deem stupid.

 

(3) The Mountaineers and just about any other climbing school tend to develop funny safety policies and inconsistent yet generally timid approaches to many climbing situations because that is what a large organization tend to do. I've had friends come out of a mountaineers course with funny ideas about how much gear is needed for a particular type of climb or whatever, but I don't blame that on the organization.

[Stefan]

TO: The guy who had the accident on Yellow Jacket Tower

 

MESSAGE: I know you are going to read this thread.

 

I am sorry for your accident. I am happy that you are alive and I wish you a successful recovery. I have been there. I hope you continue climbing after you recover.

[tomtom]

my recommendation to noobs...run from the mounties until you are experienced. Get competent instruction, through friends or pony up $$$ and hire decent guides.

Yes, an experienced climber will show you how to rap off the end of the rope safely.

[catbirdseat]

my recommendation to noobs...run from the mounties until you are experienced. Get competent instruction, through friends or pony up $$$ and hire decent guides.

Yes, an experienced climber will show you how to rap off the end of the rope safely.

Shit Tom that was low blow.

[cj001f]

Its easy to spray on the net if your not the one in the hospital.

If you are awake and aware most hospitals have free wifi....

[Gary_Yngve]

Wasn't nearly as bad as Rockguy's accusation/criticism of the late L.I. that was deleted by Iceguy.

 

I don't blame Tom. There's been too many cheap shots being taken at the Mounties, many by folks who really don't know what's going on inside.

[Gary_Yngve]

 

hmmm...the medical board at least guarantees some level of competency to the people it certifies...you saying the mounties do this? They don't...

 

I think climb "leaders" (what a fuckin' joke that is) should be a minimum of 3 levels (numbers, not letters) over a route that they are bringing new people up. It seems like these clowns that are "leading" the trip are complete jokes and are damn near at their very own limit...its insane...my recommendation to noobs...run from the mounties until you are experienced. Get competent instruction, through friends or pony up $$$ and hire decent guides.

 

RUMR, you are pretty ignorant of what actually happens. Let me explain to you how the Seattle branch works

 

a party of six for a basic rock climb consists of:

1 Climb Leader

2 Rope Leads

3 Basic Students

 

A Basic Student has passed fieldtrips on knots and simple anchors, belaying, elementary climbing, ice axe / self-arrest, and escaping the belay.

 

A Rope Lead has passed the Basic Course (done a minimum of three climbs plus fieldtrips), passed a 2-day fieldtrip on gear placement, and passed a 1-day fieldtrip of leading multipitch trad. Rope Leads are encouraged to practice on their own before going with students, but it cannot be enforced.

 

A Climb Leader has done a large number of climbs (including climbs at the Intermediate level), acted as a Mentored Leader (where the real leader backs off and lets the Mentored Leader take charge) on several climbs, and has been approved by the climbing committee. The main problem with CLs is they are "for life," as I understand, so folks who get rusty are still in the system. This could be a problem. But the worse problem is if you make more stringent rules, you lose CLs.

[minx]

Wasn't nearly as bad as Rockguy's accusation/criticism of the late L.I. that was deleted by Iceguy.

 

I don't blame Tom. There's been too many cheap shots being taken at the Mounties, many by folks who really don't know what's going on inside.

 

Gary, for a lot of us it doesn't matter what's going on inside the organization. It's the end result that counts.

 

They can be bickering, restructuring, striving for improvement, rethinking, reevaluating til the cows come home and it makes not one lick of difference to me. What does make a difference is:

1) not hearing stories about their members getting hurt

 

2) not having to plan my weekend around where a herd/flock/gaggle/pod of mounties is planning to climb

3) not spending inordinate amounts of time on a route if i happen to get stuck by them

4) not being chastized by them for doing things differently and thus "unsafely"

5) not having to feel awkward b/c someone says "i finished the basic course" and then having to explain that I need to know more b/c that doesn't make me feel confident in you as a partner.

 

6)turning out competent, knowlegabe, self-reliant climbers.

 

i am not inherently opposed to "club climbing and learning". i'm not even sure that on a per climb ratio or per climber ratio that they have more accidents.

 

what i am sure of is that clussterfucks seem to follow them and that the completion of the basic course gives the participant a false sense of their ability. so many of them learn so little in that course. what they do learn is to be paralyzed by over cautiousness.

Edited May 24, 2006 by minx

[DirtyHarry]

Minx, ITS BEEN APPROVED BY THE CLIMBING COMMITTEE.

 

What part of that did you not understand!?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

hmmm...the medical board at least guarantees some level of competency to the people it certifies...you saying the mounties do this? They don't...

 

I think climb "leaders" (what a fuckin' joke that is) should be a minimum of 3 levels (numbers, not letters) over a route that they are bringing new people up. It seems like these clowns that are "leading" the trip are complete jokes and are damn near at their very own limit...its insane...my recommendation to noobs...run from the mounties until you are experienced. Get competent instruction, through friends or pony up $$$ and hire decent guides.

 

RUMR, you are pretty ignorant of what actually happens. Let me explain to you how the Seattle branch works

 

a party of six for a basic rock climb consists of:

1 Climb Leader

2 Rope Leads

3 Basic Students

 

A Basic Student has passed fieldtrips on knots and simple anchors, belaying, elementary climbing, ice axe / self-arrest, and escaping the belay.

 

A Rope Lead has passed the Basic Course (done a minimum of three climbs plus fieldtrips), passed a 2-day fieldtrip on gear placement, and passed a 1-day fieldtrip of leading multipitch trad. Rope Leads are encouraged to practice on their own before going with students, but it cannot be enforced.

 

A Climb Leader has done a large number of climbs (including climbs at the Intermediate level), acted as a Mentored Leader (where the real leader backs off and lets the Mentored Leader take charge) on several climbs, and has been approved by the climbing committee. The main problem with CLs is they are "for life," as I understand, so folks who get rusty are still in the system. This could be a problem. But the worse problem is if you make more stringent rules, you lose CLs.

 

Exactly, Gary.

 

All the Mounties "guarantee" about a rope lead or a climbing leader is that they have fulfilled the requirements enumerated above. There is no "guarantee" that CLs are "safer" than those who learn to climb elsewhere, or are "safe" at all. But you do know the minimum baseline that all CLs have met. It seems that the peanut gallery here loves to jump to conclusions and make claims on behalf of the Mounties and attribute those claims to the Mounties with no basis whatsoever. Prove me wrong and post a link to any literature published by the Mounties that proves otherwise. As I recall the Mounties explicitly tell new students that they are not a guide service, and can not guarantee anyone's safety because climbing is inherently dangerous, and you can get hurt and die, even on a field trip.

[catbirdseat]

Minx, it is clear to me that most of what you know about the Mountaineers, you read right here in this little 'ol website. Nothing like Spray for facts and information you can count on!

[minx]

CBS-

 

don't make me humiliate you in public.

 

1) my weekend plans are changed b/c a group of 10 mounties has planned to do the hike/climb i had in mind.

2) i personally have witnessed more than one mountie in trouble and helped

3) i've been stuck behind a whole slew of them (8+) on a popular local climb while it took an hour or more for a single pitch to be climbed. Followed by me saying "you know you can't get down from there on a 60 meter rope right?" response being "umm...no"

4) DH recently got stuck behind a whole shmeer of them on another local climb. again, huge unnnecessary delays causing him to be late and me to worry.

5) See #4 for an incident when said mounties left a member of their party w/o a rope to rap down on...duh!

6) witnessed them snow camping in an avvy shute.

7) been chastized on more than one occasion for travelling w/o the enough/appropriate gear. I was out for a trail/snow run...not a major expedition.

8) regularly partnered with one that can't make a decision to save their life....literally.

 

So CBS...STFU. My climbing experience is not limited to nor even much guided by what is said on this board.

[Gary_Yngve]

1) I'd say that most of the accidents with the Mounties don't involve basic students but rather ropeleads/climb leaders. I hope the accident rate will go down. There's been a few too many high-profile accidents lately, but I think it's just an unlucky streak and is solely a result of probability.

 

2) This is annoying. But those areas are crowded with private climbers too. The Mounties are aware of the impact they are having, and they are doing smaller party sizes. They also have online schedules and coordinate among branches so they don't have two parties hitting the same route on the same day.

 

3) A bastard might say, "If you're getting stuck behind the Mounties, you're not climbing hard enough." The good news is that many times you can pass them on the approach or even at a belay if you ask nicely. I've done this on both The Tooth and Ingalls.

 

4) This is annoying. There are some bad apples in the Mounties, and unfortunately it makes the whole barrel smell.

 

5) I don't think it's awkward to ask for a clarification. I learned my lesson from making assumptions about a new partner who said he could swing leads (trad) at 5.9 and wanted to climb Lib Ridge in Spring. He wasn't with the Mounties.

 

6) There definitely are some. I believe the woman who soloed the Nisq Ice Cliff recently is with the Everett Branch. But there are people who really just want to get up Rainier once or are in the class because of their SO and don't give a shit about anything else.

 

I do agree with you that many leave the course being hypersensitive about danger and the "right way" to do something. Maybe it's better for the error to be biased this way rather than the other way.

 

Ken4ord is also correct that some Mounties worship/fear certain (often easy) climbs and develop egos when conquering them. Again, this is a subset. I learn who these people are and avoid them like the plague. I also avoid other Mountie leaders who are known to go slow, have poor judgment regarding weather/turnaround times, and are obsessive about climbing in boots instead of rockshoes. I have my own private list, but it's too touchy of a subject for the list to become public or for there to be "impeachment" hearings to revoke CL status (except in very egregious cases).

[RuMR]

CBS-

 

don't make me humiliate you in public.

 

1) my weekend plans are changed b/c a group of 10 mounties has planned to do the hike/climb i had in mind.

2) i personally have witnessed more than one mountie in trouble and helped

3) i've been stuck behind a whole slew of them (8+) on a popular local climb while it took an hour or more for a single pitch to be climbed. Followed by me saying "you know you can't get down from there on a 60 meter rope right?" response being "umm...no"

4) DH recently got stuck behind a whole shmeer of them on another local climb. again, huge unnnecessary delays causing him to be late and me to worry.

5) See #4 for an incident when said mounties left a member of their party w/o a rope to rap down on...duh!

6) witnessed them snow camping in an avvy shute.

7) been chastized on more than one occasion for travelling w/o the enough/appropriate gear. I was out for a trail/snow run...not a major expedition.

8) regularly partnered with one that can't make a decision to save their life....literally.

 

So CBS...STFU. My climbing experience is not limited to nor even much guided by what is said on this board.

yeah...but do you have all the knot knowledge that CBS has and the superior footwork with mirrored glasses that KK possesses? THought not, so STFU NOOB! Edited May 24, 2006 by RuMR