Off_White Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 quote: Originally posted by shredmaximus: Seriously though...what do people think of rapping vs lowering off a questionable anchor? It seems to me rapping would be the way to go but what do I know??? If your anchor is sketchy, I'd lower for sure, staying clipped through the pieces you placed on the lead. Just like Anna did. I don't think the load from lowering is much more than rappelling. Anna, Sayjay's advice was right on the money. I'd add the suggestion (should you decide that trad leading is something you want to pursue) that you play with gear placement at every opportunity, from the ground. Walk along the base and put stuff in, then have someone with experience critique your placements. Glad to hear your scare turned out alright, and thanks for bringing it up, there are probably a number of folks on this board for whom all this is good information to read and digest. Quote
hasbeen Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 Shred: Why would there have been lees force on the anchor on rappel than when lowering? Who would have built the rappel anchor? It seems to me that if Anna had rapped off the climb the results would have been far worse. As for the force issue, it seems to me that being lowered on a single strand that went from the belayer on the ground through the topmost anchor and through all of the pro leading up to would have a provided many "force absorbers" in the form of rope stretch, the dynamics of the bely and the friction generated by running through whatever pro was already in. The rap, on the other hand would have involved a double stand through the top anchor with almost no rope stretch (at lease at the start of the rap and no intermediate pro to generate any friction or absorb any force. Moreover, if the rap were set up by pulling the rope through the intermediate pro, there would have been nothing to catch Anna when the anchor pulled. On the second issue, Anna would still have built the anchor and it does not sound like that would have led to a different result. I have to vote against the rappel... Just my $.02, however. Quote
bellemontagne Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 when you lower someone, in effect the carabiner (ring, etc) connected to the anchor essentially becomes a pully of sorts. So, it is possible that any force placed on that anchor could be magnified by x2. Am I correct, or am I truly off base, anyone, anyone?? I would say that if the anchor is sketchy, I would rap. However, that kinda depends. That's where technical knowledge, solid judgement, wisdon, and experience come into play. Just like Erik says - there are no hard and fast rules - different situations call for different techniques. If you had rapped off, you probably would have decked and would not be here right now Since he lowered you off from the ground, the rope was still running through pieces of pro (like the piton) and that caught ya. Quote
glacier_dup1 Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 Aside from being caught on the fixed pin, I think in general it is 'safer' to rap in the case of a bad anchor. The forces on an anchor are much less when rapping than lowering - simply - You have the weight/force of one person (rappeller) rather than two (climber and belayer) acting on the anchor. I'm sure Petzl or one of the other techy knowitall pages has the info - also perhaps check one of the 'How to' books - I seem to remember something on this topic in the Twight light alpinism book. Quote
forrest_m Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 anna, I am glad that you are ok. I think you have gotten some good advice about how (if you choose to) you might go about learning to lead in a safer, more controlled fashion. a few other topics have come up that I’d like to address: sayjay wrote: quote: Personally, I think that the fact that most people get into climbing trad these days by starting off in the gym or on sport routes then move on to wanting to lead trad is causing too many people to have an experience like Anna's. one often encounters the attitude that if you aren’t pushing yourself all the time, you are somehow missing out or not “really” climbing. and I would argue that the greatest rewards in climbing do come when you push your limits. but the baby steps are fundamental, placing gear and making anchors are technical skills that require a lot of time to master. if you were to take flying lessons, you would spend a LOT of time doing “boring” stuff like sitting on the ground going through your pre-flight over and over, memorizing the layout of the controls, etc. before proceeding to short level flights. noone would accuse you of not “pushing” your limits while you were still learning the basics. because sport climbing makes it easy for people to lead almost at their limit very quickly, many people don’t realize that trad climbing is as much more complicated that sport climbing as flying a plane vs. driving a car. (lots of people do a lot of unsafe things while sport climbing, also, but that’s another thread…) another thing we tend to dance around is the face the climbing really is dangerous. I know I spent a lot of years telling my loved ones that “actually, it’s really safe,” and fooled myself for a long time into believing that all those people in ANAM had made mistakes that I was too clever to make. I know most of the obvious responses to this: some kinds of climbing are more dangerous than others, you could get hit by a car on the street, etc. But if we are honest with ourselves, we will realize that by climbing, we are deliberately taking risks and we should keep our eyes open to the price should we might pay. I think a lot of people pay lip service to this, because they like the thrill of participating in an “extreme” sport, of doing something that others think is foolhardy, without really believing that they themselves might be hurt. To me, this is like climbing with your eyes closed. It can be pretty hard on a sunny afternoon at Smith, but I truly believe that one of the best ways to reduce the risks is to keep in the back of your mind that every decision you make while climbing may have life & death consequences. [ 11-01-2002, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: forrest_m ] Quote
Greg_W Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Anna: ...and not get paid for it . As always, a suitable, mutually beneficial cumpensatory arrangement can always be reached Quote
Anna Posted November 2, 2002 Author Posted November 2, 2002 No worries Shred..we all come from this with a little more knowledge. Rappelling down didn't even enter my train of thought. Lowering felt like the best option cuz I wanted down...it didn't feel right, it was really exposed.....I should have known better, AAAGGGHHH! What was I thinking? I didn't know where the first pitch bolt anchors were, didn't know how to really place gear, didn't know really how to set an anchor, I hadn't climbed in four months, only lead trad once before...the whole situation shouts WATCH OUT! Live (thank God!) and learn. Thanks again and again for the wealth of knowledge submitted. Quote
allthumbs Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 Hi Allison. We're glad you approve. Have a great day! Quote
Greg_W Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 quote: Originally posted by trask: Hi Allison. We're glad you approve. Have a great day! I hate the "new" Trask. Quote
Mr._Chips Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 Sounds to me that Anna had no right heading up that climb in the first place. If you had little idea on how to set an anchor, then what were your intentions when you reached the top of the pitch??? And how about the second, did he/she feel comfortable seconding on an anchor set by a questionably "experienced" climber. Sounds like your climbing friends should have and could have help you make a safer and proper decision. Yes, climbers have close calls, but it sounds like you are not a climber who should have been leading that type of climb. You were not positive on how to set gear on trad climbs, HELLO big RED FLAG there. Learn to recognize the inherit risks of not being confident with the fundamentals first, then get up on a route. If you are just "pretty sure" you know how to place gear, take a course or practice until you are. It's people like you that make non-climbers believe that climbing is not safe. Sorry to rag on you like this, but this is also directed to your climbing friends who allowed you to lead up that route. You were lucky, very lucky. Quote
Anna Posted November 2, 2002 Author Posted November 2, 2002 Shame on you Greg I have taken all these suggestions and I think doing lots and lots of sport leads (well when I feel comfortable leading again) is what my next step is going to be. Thanks to all of you! Now I just need to get some time off work and school to do it! I also think the gym might help me out even though I am not a real big fan of them. Cheers Quote
Lambone Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Mr. Chips: Sounds to me that Anna had no right heading up that climb in the first place. If you had little idea on how to set an anchor, then what were your intentions when you reached the top of the pitch??? And how about the second, did he/she feel comfortable seconding on an anchor set by a questionably "experienced" climber. Sounds like your climbing friends should have and could have help you make a safer and proper decision. Yes, climbers have close calls, but it sounds like you are not a climber who should have been leading that type of climb. You were not positive on how to set gear on trad climbs, HELLO big RED FLAG there. Learn to recognize the inherit risks of not being confident with the fundamentals first, then get up on a route. If you are just "pretty sure" you know how to place gear, take a course or practice until you are. It's people like you that make non-climbers believe that climbing is not safe. Sorry to rag on you like this, but this is also directed to your climbing friends who allowed you to lead up that route. You were lucky, very lucky. "no right" Man fuck you. who are you to determine who has a right to climb something or not. What a croc of shit. Yeah, maybe she wasn't quite ready yet...but thats a completly different thing than saying she had no right to be there...you suck Quote
Mr._Chips Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 You know, it just angers me on how blatently stupid you were for heading up on that climb. Reading your last entry spells out so many no-brainer hints that you were not prepared at all for climbing. HUMBLED is not the word to use here. Quote
mattp Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 I agree with the suggestions made above that climbers who are moving from the gym into "trad" climbing should be encouraged to learn to lead on easy climbs but I disagree with SayJay's suggestion that this should be a focal issue in trying to encourage climbers to make that transition safely. I say this for two reasons. First, from what I've seen of beginning leaders, they rarely if ever fall when faced with a difficult move that is near their limit but much more often fall when they pull off a loose rock or slip on a grassy ledge or otherwise fall when they were not expecting to. Yes, there are those who are willing to throw theirselves at hard climbing before they know how to protect it properly, but most new leaders will back down before they reach anything near their technical ability. Second, I think there are all kinds of skills needed to lead a trad climb safely, and these include learning to place gear but they also include a lot more than that. Routefinding and being able to assess where in the terrain ahead they will be able to stop and place pro or set a belay, anticipating rope drag and compensating for it, setting up a retreat, rapelling where there may be loose rocks or flakes ready to snag the rope when you pull it... Coming from the gym, trad climbing is a whole new sport and I think Forrest stated this quite well. Hone your gear placement skills on easy climbs -- or even on the ground -- but I think you will learn a lot more about gear placement by doing as Kurt suggested and climbing A-1 cracks. Most of that other stuff that you have to learn in order to be a competent trad leader can only be learned by doing lots of climbing, on climbs that are generally more complex and demanding than most of the 5.2's that I can think of. And sorry, safety folks, but I disagree with the idea that climbing skills can always be learned in a safe setting or that we can improve incrementally without sometimes throwing ourselves at something that may be over our head. I'm probably arguing this point only because I misunderstood what was said, however. Just ask Mitch. Quote
bolt_clipper Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 Start slowly, on bolted stuff. Take it easy, and don't get on anything long, committing, or runout. And when you do get back to trad, go REAL SLOW, and practice on easy, sewn-up climbs. You were lucky, but you're fine, so don't dwell on what could have happened. Live and learn, but don't obsess. Quote
Lambone Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Anna: Shame on you Greg I have taken all these suggestions and I think doing lots and lots of sport leads (well when I feel comfortable leading again) is what my next step is going to be. Thanks to all of you! Now I just need to get some time off work and school to do it! I also think the gym might help me out even though I am not a real big fan of them. Cheers Anna, My recomendation is to perhaps take a course on anchors and protection, possibly at a gym or with a guide, and don't be afraid to stick with trad climbing. Many people believe that they have to sport/gym climb for a long time for a while before they are ready to get into trad. Not true. Sport/gym climbing can be a rut that may hinder your trad climbing ability in the future. I toproped for a long time before leading, and learned how protection worked by placing my own toprope anchors (the bluffs of Devil's Lake Wi are perfect for this) then I got a meger rack and worked my way up the grades leading roues that I had toproped many times. It wasn't untill several years later that I did my first "sport climb." This worked for me, so in my opinion I think you should stick with it. You'll find folks who are willing to show you, if not...pay them, it's worth it. Quote
Mr._Chips Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 Hey LAME - BONE, It's not about who has a right to climb a route because the climb is there, it's about who has the right to climb because they are prepared - experienced - and at least have some confidence. Read the posts by ANNA herself, she pretty much admits that she had no "right" to be on that climb. Maybe you should give your head a shake pal. If a friend of yours said to you, "ya, I have not climbed for 4 months, I have very little idea on how to place natural gear, I am not feeling good about this, I am not familiar with this climb at all, I don't know how to set an anchor, I don't know where the anchor is etc. etc. " would YOU say "c'mon dude, just climb it, you can do it, ROck on man." (puff-puff)???? THINK ABOUT IT LAME-O. Quote
texplorer Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 posts and pagetops stink after 3 pages -Tex Quote
Mr._Chips Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 I did not say Anna was NOT cool, (cool is an ambiguos word anyway), just read the posts and try and see my point here. She needs to not put the cart before the ox. Quote
Dru Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 what are you doing inside on such a gorgeous day wanker i myself am typing this on my quokka enabled web phone from 7000m on the west facew of k2. i will let you know when i send. Quote
Mr._Chips Posted November 2, 2002 Posted November 2, 2002 HOLY SHIT! Me too but I am about 1500feet above you, c'mon up and we can have some chai and work this out. This is an acclimation day anyway. Quote
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