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Anna

I've been humbled

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Tyrone Shoes, Mr. Chips = two peas in a pod! you heard it hear first folks! both canada, reg 9/02! you guys are being trolled my friends, enjoy

 

I got through canada and am now finishing alaska in ANAM.

[laf]

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Tyrone and Chips,

You two dudes are really cool. I want to be like you when I grow up. Keep the faith brothers and keep spreading the love. Later, trask

 

[ 11-01-2002, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: trask ]

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No, I decided not to call them stupid cock suckers with shit for brains. I'm trying not to be so rude, but when fucksticks like these two chodes show up, all I can think about is how cool it'd be to slam their nutz in a vice. But I'm not going to say that. [big Grin]

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quote:

Originally posted by Off White:

Dude, its the internet, we're all pretty insubstantial. Experience suggests that we're much more polite in the flesh, I didn't see a single eye-gouging hair-pulling fist-swinging tussle at the entire rope up.

So true. I walked away earlier today from what I thought was a pretty interesting thread about learning from such an experience and how to get back on the trad horse; coming back this eve and WHOA!, I see all shit broke loose! Glad that Anna and Shredmax can see above it all. I didn't make the L-worth gig, but I fer sure gotta make the next rope-up.

 

Cheers [big Drink]

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quote:

Originally posted by shredmaximus:

Seriously though...what do people think of rapping vs lowering off a questionable anchor? It seems to me rapping would be the way to go but what do I know???

well, if an anchor is shakey in a way that jostling the pieces around could make them come out, then the process of switching from being on belay to being on rappell could make your anchor pull.

i'd stick with lowering: the less time you spend farting around on a weak anchor the better...

also, if you *had to* have a bad anchor because you are in a spot that doesn't take gear well but there's a spot below you that does take gear well, you could be lowered to that point, set a few good pieces, and clip the rope there. so if your upper anchor blows you'll fall on the lower anchor.

all pretty desperate stuff, tho, that i'd rather avoid having to think about in the first place...

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quote:

Originally posted by shredmaximus:

Seriously though...what do people think of rapping vs lowering off a questionable anchor? It seems to me rapping would be the way to go but what do I know???

If your anchor is sketchy, I'd lower for sure, staying clipped through the pieces you placed on the lead. Just like Anna did. I don't think the load from lowering is much more than rappelling.

 

Anna, Sayjay's advice was right on the money. I'd add the suggestion (should you decide that trad leading is something you want to pursue) that you play with gear placement at every opportunity, from the ground. Walk along the base and put stuff in, then have someone with experience critique your placements.

 

Glad to hear your scare turned out alright, and thanks for bringing it up, there are probably a number of folks on this board for whom all this is good information to read and digest.

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Shred: Why would there have been lees force on the anchor on rappel than when lowering? Who would have built the rappel anchor? It seems to me that if Anna had rapped off the climb the results would have been far worse. As for the force issue, it seems to me that being lowered on a single strand that went from the belayer on the ground through the topmost anchor and through all of the pro leading up to would have a provided many "force absorbers" in the form of rope stretch, the dynamics of the bely and the friction generated by running through whatever pro was already in. The rap, on the other hand would have involved a double stand through the top anchor with almost no rope stretch (at lease at the start of the rap and no intermediate pro to generate any friction or absorb any force. Moreover, if the rap were set up by pulling the rope through the intermediate pro, there would have been nothing to catch Anna when the anchor pulled. On the second issue, Anna would still have built the anchor and it does not sound like that would have led to a different result. I have to vote against the rappel... Just my $.02, however.

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when you lower someone, in effect the carabiner (ring, etc) connected to the anchor essentially becomes a pully of sorts. So, it is possible that any force placed on that anchor could be magnified by x2. Am I correct, or am I truly off base, anyone, anyone??

 

I would say that if the anchor is sketchy, I would rap. However, that kinda depends. That's where technical knowledge, solid judgement, wisdon, and experience come into play. Just like Erik says - there are no hard and fast rules - different situations call for different techniques. If you had rapped off, you probably would have decked and would not be here right now [Frown] Since he lowered you off from the ground, the rope was still running through pieces of pro (like the piton) and that caught ya.

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Aside from being caught on the fixed pin, I think in general it is 'safer' to rap in the case of a bad anchor. The forces on an anchor are much less when rapping than lowering - simply - You have the weight/force of one person (rappeller) rather than two (climber and belayer) acting on the anchor.

 

I'm sure Petzl or one of the other techy knowitall pages has the info - also perhaps check one of the 'How to' books - I seem to remember something on this topic in the Twight light alpinism book.

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anna, I am glad that you are ok. I think you have gotten some good advice about how (if you choose to) you might go about learning to lead in a safer, more controlled fashion. a few other topics have come up that I’d like to address:

 

sayjay wrote:

quote:

Personally, I think that the fact that most people get into climbing trad these days by starting off in the gym or on sport routes then move on to wanting to lead trad is causing too many people to have an experience like Anna's.

one often encounters the attitude that if you aren’t pushing yourself all the time, you are somehow missing out or not “really” climbing. and I would argue that the greatest rewards in climbing do come when you push your limits. but the baby steps are fundamental, placing gear and making anchors are technical skills that require a lot of time to master. if you were to take flying lessons, you would spend a LOT of time doing “boring” stuff like sitting on the ground going through your pre-flight over and over, memorizing the layout of the controls, etc. before proceeding to short level flights. noone would accuse you of not “pushing” your limits while you were still learning the basics. because sport climbing makes it easy for people to lead almost at their limit very quickly, many people don’t realize that trad climbing is as much more complicated that sport climbing as flying a plane vs. driving a car. (lots of people do a lot of unsafe things while sport climbing, also, but that’s another thread…)

 

another thing we tend to dance around is the face the climbing really is dangerous. I know I spent a lot of years telling my loved ones that “actually, it’s really safe,” and fooled myself for a long time into believing that all those people in ANAM had made mistakes that I was too clever to make. I know most of the obvious responses to this: some kinds of climbing are more dangerous than others, you could get hit by a car on the street, etc. But if we are honest with ourselves, we will realize that by climbing, we are deliberately taking risks and we should keep our eyes open to the price should we might pay. I think a lot of people pay lip service to this, because they like the thrill of participating in an “extreme” sport, of doing something that others think is foolhardy, without really believing that they themselves might be hurt. To me, this is like climbing with your eyes closed. It can be pretty hard on a sunny afternoon at Smith, but I truly believe that one of the best ways to reduce the risks is to keep in the back of your mind that every decision you make while climbing may have life & death consequences.

 

[ 11-01-2002, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: forrest_m ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Anna:

...and not get paid for it
[big Grin]
.

As always, a suitable, mutually beneficial cumpensatory arrangement can always be reached [big Grin]

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No worries Shred..we all come from this with a little more knowledge.

 

Rappelling down didn't even enter my train of thought. Lowering felt like the best option cuz I wanted down...it didn't feel right, it was really exposed.....I should have known better, AAAGGGHHH! What was I thinking? I didn't know where the first pitch bolt anchors were, didn't know how to really place gear, didn't know really how to set an anchor, I hadn't climbed in four months, only lead trad once before...the whole situation shouts WATCH OUT! Live (thank God!) and learn.

 

Thanks again and again for the wealth of knowledge submitted.

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quote:

Originally posted by trask:

Hi Allison. We're glad you approve. Have a great day!
[smile]

[hell no][hell no][Mad] I hate the "new" Trask. [Wink]

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Sounds to me that Anna had no right heading up that climb in the first place. If you had little idea on how to set an anchor, then what were your intentions when you reached the top of the pitch??? And how about the second, did he/she feel comfortable seconding on an anchor set by a questionably "experienced" climber. Sounds like your climbing friends should have and could have help you make a safer and proper decision. Yes, climbers have close calls, but it sounds like you are not a climber who should have been leading that type of climb. You were not positive on how to set gear on trad climbs, HELLO big RED FLAG there. Learn to recognize the inherit risks of not being confident with the fundamentals first, then get up on a route. If you are just "pretty sure" you know how to place gear, take a course or practice until you are. It's people like you that make non-climbers believe that climbing is not safe. Sorry to rag on you like this, but this is also directed to your climbing friends who allowed you to lead up that route. You were lucky, very lucky.

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Shame on you Greg [big Grin][big Grin]

 

I have taken all these suggestions and I think doing lots and lots of sport leads (well when I feel comfortable leading again) is what my next step is going to be. Thanks to all of you! Now I just need to get some time off work and school to do it! I also think the gym might help me out even though I am not a real big fan of them.

 

Cheers

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quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Chips:

Sounds to me that Anna had no right heading up that climb in the first place. If you had little idea on how to set an anchor, then what were your intentions when you reached the top of the pitch??? And how about the second, did he/she feel comfortable seconding on an anchor set by a questionably "experienced" climber. Sounds like your climbing friends should have and could have help you make a safer and proper decision. Yes, climbers have close calls, but it sounds like you are not a climber who should have been leading that type of climb. You were not positive on how to set gear on trad climbs, HELLO big RED FLAG there. Learn to recognize the inherit risks of not being confident with the fundamentals first, then get up on a route. If you are just "pretty sure" you know how to place gear, take a course or practice until you are. It's people like you that make non-climbers believe that climbing is not safe. Sorry to rag on you like this, but this is also directed to your climbing friends who allowed you to lead up that route. You were lucky, very lucky.

"no right"

 

Man fuck you. who are you to determine who has a right to climb something or not. What a croc of shit.

 

Yeah, maybe she wasn't quite ready yet...but thats a completly different thing than saying she had no right to be there...you suck [Mad]

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