erden Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Off White: It might be most appropriate to ride your bike from Vantage to Everest basecamp with the plaque and install it there, since Goran's (sorry Erden, haven't figured out the umlaut thing) legacy is much greater than anything Vantage has to offer. Something like this will happen Off White, just wait for my update. My proposal is in the works for Göran sizing that suggestion. As for the plaque/carving at the climb - that is where he died, and that is where it has most meaning, IMHO. Although he came close, Göran did not die at Everest. Please note that there is a separate chunk of rock, much like a tombstone magically separated from the climbs around it. The inscription is on it, and it looks good. I was the one to go at it with a chisel, I will take the flak for it. I will listen to the concensus before I enhance the lettering. Before forming your opinions, EVERYONE, I invite you to see the place, sit next to that rock and smell the air at the base of Air Guitar. Then tell me what you think. Please do that for Göran. Erden. BTW - you can cut and post Göran from this post... [ 10-08-2002, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: erden ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Erden: I haven't been out there in a couple of years but I like what you are proposing as far as a memorial at the base of the climb is concerned. I also like the idea that some others have proposed concerning naming a new route in his memory. The Eve Dearborn Memorial Route comes to mind as an inspiring tribute to a fallen climber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erden Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 While discussing the inscription at the base of the climb, please consider Renata's input as well posted on Kropp Aventyr. "021007 Nepal group Since I left Nepal I have not yet hade any conversation with the group that I originally was leading to Everest Base camp. When I left I made sure that they where properly taken care of with extra staff and sherpas so that they could continue their trek. Just a few hours ago I spoke with our agent, Peak Promotion, and got confirmed that everybody is doing ok. The group is now on their way back to Namche, Lukla and will arrive in Kathmandu within a few days. Unfortunately it seams like not everybody reached Base Camp, but some of those who did, made a small ceremony to remember Goran by. When I was flown out from Tengboche, it was a clear day and I saw some of the peaks that Goran has climbed and some of those that we where hoping of doing together. Right now, I do not know if I will return again, it is hard to imagine being in the mountains without him. In spite of what has happened I still believe that climbing is a safe sport but yes, accidents due happen. I know that Goran would never have wanted anyone to stop climbing because of this. On the contrary, he wanted people to follow their dreams no matter what. Goran may not have been the kind of pioneer that discovered new continents, I believe he did something far greater. He woke the adventurer in each and every one of us, and letting ourselves be the explorer. Today we went to visit the site of the accident. It was a very beautiful place with peaceful surroundings, very much warmth and a fantastic view that stretched beyond eternity. In the rock next to his last route it was carved: Always thumbs up Kropp on Topp! Goran lives The first sentence carries the spirit, the second bears the witness and in the last one lies the truth; Goran lives, do not let him die. Renata Chlumska" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_Certa Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Attitude: I noticed that Bill's website is still up. Does anyone plan on archiving the route information before it disappears? quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: attitude, That's a good idea. But who do you contact in order to take the info without stealing is the real question. His wife or family I suppose. I never knew the guy.. Just archiving it without asking is sort of stealing in a way. The person to ask is me - I am the personal representative of the Estate of William Robins, which now has the copyright to the material on the site. I have access to Bill's website and have copies of all of his notes, route information, photographs and computer files. I plan to keep the site up for quite some time (i.e., years). Paul [ 10-08-2002, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Paul Certa ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: Let not forget that long time Coullee developer/advocate Bill Robbins died this year. He spent who knows how many hundreds of hours developing and advocating for the area. I noticed that Bill's website is still up. Does anyone plan on archiving the route information before it disappears? [ 10-08-2002, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Attitude ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 attitude, That's a good idea. But who do you contact in order to take the info without stealing is the real question. His wife or family I suppose. I never knew the guy.. Just archiving it without asking is sort of stealing in a way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 9, 2002 Author Share Posted October 9, 2002 It is only stealing if you don't attribute. If you copy the info and note your source you are just Referencing. For instance if Smoot noted that 98% of his route info comes from Beckey, Burdo, Kramar etc. then he'd still be a copycat but at least a legit one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 I agree. I suggest finding a new route in the alpine, riding our bikes there and climbing it and naming it the Goran Kropp memorial or something like that. Sort of like Eve Dearborn route on Index. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dru: It is only stealing if you don't attribute. If you copy the info and note your source you are just Referencing. For instance if Smoot noted that 98% of his route info comes from Beckey, Burdo, Kramar etc. then he'd still be a copycat but at least a legit one. It'd be simple for me to do but I wouldn't go there without approval from someone in his family or a climbing friend.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 I believe Lowell Skoog commented on this idea in his discussion of a Journal last winter. Because webpages are rather transient, it might be a good idea if someone were to undertake to periodically search for and "archive" what climbing history or route information appears on the web, but on the otherhand we should consider whether this may discourage the sharing of information if somebody has concerns about whether or not their ascent was "worthy" or whether it might generate controversy or something. I believe Clint Cummins set out to archive some of the information about Squire Creek Wall that was posted on the C&S website and that he transcribed and consolidated some of the information and put it on his page for a while (if my memory is correct, he gave credit for the source). Anyway, I think it may now be gone so maybe the original author took offense at this or perhaps Clint Cummins thought better of it for some other reason. What is the protocol for copying information off the net? Wasn't the original idea that everything should be "open source" and isn't that why you have the "view source" option on your web browser? Now that businesses are using the web for commercial activity the original idea may no longer be valid but doesn't somebody who puts something on the web assume that people are going to download and copy and print and manipiulate their information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 I dont know what the laws are but either way I wouldn't just take the guys compiled photos and information without consent. If someone knows the guys friends or family maybe they can contact them. As far as download etc yeah climbers usually dont mind. Some people get upset if you don't ask though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Fair enough Paul. Issue solved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Paul Certa: I have access to Bill's website and have copies of all of his notes, route information, photographs and computer files. I plan to keep the site up for quite some time (i.e., years). Paul Thanks Paul. I'm glad that Bill's work will be preserved. This spring, I was asking this random couple walking down the trail at Vantage for information, and the guy piped up that he had a website. Bill introduced himself and we discussed the routes I had printed from his website. I enjoyed that short conversation we had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Instead of renaming a route or erecting a memorial, how about naming a trail after Bill or Goran? That way, their names would come up in conversation for many, many generations, and perhaps their legends would survive. I also like the new route idea. Hey, how many times have you climbed at Index and been reminded of these guys? [ 10-18-2002, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: pope ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 I like the idea of the carving. And I don't think it inappropriate for it to be near the base of the route, though I wouldn't want to see such a thing be large or obtrusive. I share the concern expressed here for setting a precedent that might encourage others to carve away at the crags for their own reasons, but I don't think it would be bad for climbers to be stimulated to think of Göran in that beautiful location where they might reflect on his life of climbing and nor do I think it would be bad for them to be reminded in such a vivid way that the activitiy they are participating in is a dangerous one. I do not find the crosses you see on the roadsides in many nations to be ghoulish but, rather, provacative in a way that causes us to think about the value of human life and the danger inherant in driving a car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 As tragic as this event is, I'm not sure carving into the rock is something in the spirit of Goran's aesthetics. I don't know him, just saw his film, but he went through so much effort to maintain an aesthetic on his trip. It seems odd to me that this was suggested. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, maybe he loved to carve his name in places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 Goran will be remember for his accomplishments. Remaning the route seems inappropriate, but a memorial could be alright if it seems necessary. My question is: don't you think that his accomplishments are far more substantial than some carving. To me it almost seems to undermine the fact that his accomplishments alone are enough to keep around the memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 9, 2002 Author Share Posted October 9, 2002 Just make sure whatever memorial is erected is not something that would impale you if you fell off and hit it cause irony is a real bitch in situations like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotch-a-Go-Go Posted October 9, 2002 Share Posted October 9, 2002 I didn't know Goran and don't know the route and don't know the area. In fact I don't know shit! But despite that I will send off my opinion, purely as an academic exercise. Don't rename routes, post plaques or carve inscriptions on the routes of our grandchildren please. It may seem a small thing now but start multiplying this kind of activity over time and you can maybe appreciate the impact. Not to take anything away from Goran or those who mourn his passing, generally I just don't think it is a good way to go. Maybe if this topic weren't related to just one person or instance it would be easier to talk about without sounding like a heartless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad[lasma Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 I personlly dont like the idea of renameing the route or the carving--I new route named after him would be good---the best idea I have heard is something in the parking area--something for climbing deaths--not just there but every where-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_detrick Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Hey another climber from ephrata wow. This is a hard subjuct, Göran is the only person to have died from a fall at Vantage, so I don't have no problem with something at the base of the climb. I hope there is no need for more. Bill was a big part of Vantage but he did not die there. If someone wanted to do something for Bill I think a place by the greeter board would be kool. IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spew Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Originally posted by Paul detrick: [QB]Hey another climber from ephrata wow. I live under the cardboard box behind the Mexican restaurant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_detrick Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 Henry is that you? How's the dog's? We have more can's whenever your ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 What? Nobody cares to reminisce? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spew Posted October 10, 2002 Share Posted October 10, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Paul detrick: Henry is that you? How's the dog's? We have more can's whenever your ready. Hey Paul the dogs fine and I could use the cans as I need the money for the big move to the cliff think'n under middle east wall , hey could you score me a burn barrel the dog keeps my feet warm but my ass is starting to get cold. That Mex'ie food was kind of gassy so Im back to the dumster diving behind Zacks . Scored a computer at the dump pluged it in by way of the bathroom window and spliced into the phone line this site was book marked.Traded the cardbord box for a van what a deal, now I have to figure out how to get it to the cliff with flat tires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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