Dru Posted October 7, 2002 Share Posted October 7, 2002 Thought I would put this on a different thread than the Goran (with Umlaut over O) Kropp accident thread. I disagree with renaming a route such as Erdens proposal to rename Air Guitar. Not only is it confusing to those familiar with the old name but what do you do if someone else dies on it - change the name again? The North Face of the Eiger 1938 route might have its name changed 20 or 30 times by now. I think instead of associating the name with the accident site the best thing is to climb something new and name it in homage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 7, 2002 Share Posted October 7, 2002 Dr. Flash Amazing was thinking the same thing, but decided to keep his trouble-making mouth shut. Since your Canadianness has brought it up, though ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegetablebelay Posted October 7, 2002 Share Posted October 7, 2002 I agree. The carving in the rock is a nice enough memorial IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 7, 2002 Share Posted October 7, 2002 See, the Doctor was thinking that the carving or the parking lot memorial idea were good. But having too many remembrances dilutes some of the specialness of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted October 7, 2002 Share Posted October 7, 2002 with that I agree DFA. One thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted October 7, 2002 Share Posted October 7, 2002 I think carving is the less prefered choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegetablebelay Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: I think carving is the less prefered choice. Is that because it's such a pristine and unspoiled area? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigA Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dru: I think instead of associating the name with the accident site the best thing is to climb something new and name it in homage. I couldn't agree more. A nice memorial on site is good, but renaming the route I do not like. No disrespect intended, it just seems more adventurous (and that was the nature of Göran) adventurous! Craig [ 10-07-2002, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: CraigA ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erden Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 Keep posting your opinions here, I will relay the common wisdom to the family. They are kind and genuine people; and they know and respect traditions. Regardless of the concensus, the family and I will refer to the climb as Air Flute from here on among us. Thank you for having the sanity to move this topic into its own thread of discussion. Erden. [ 10-07-2002, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: erden ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 In all due respect I think Air Guitar name should rename. May we all think of Göran if we hear or do this climb with a loud nad\or famous guitar riff (which one you may choose in your own mind) since he is a memorable and notable person in history With a memory like that everyone will have a unique but positive thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erden Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: In all due respect I think Air Guitar name should rename. May we all think of Göran if we hear or do this climb with a loud nad\or famous guitar riff (which one you may choose in your own mind) since he is a memorable and notable person in history With a memory like that everyone will have a unique but positive thought see Erden. [ 10-07-2002, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: erden ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 quote: Originally posted by vegetablebelay: quote:Originally posted by Peter Puget: I think carving is the less prefered choice. Is that because it's such a pristine and unspoiled area? No because for a variety of reasons I am not sure it is good precedent to set. I also believe that a set up like that at Fisherman's Terminal where the memorial is in memory of all fisherman sailing from Seattle is a good paradigm to follow. Let not forget that long time Coullee developer/advocate Bill Robbins died this year. He spent who knows how many hundreds of hours developing and advocating for the area. While I personally didn't agree with much of what he had to say I believe that his enthusiasm and love of the area should not be forgotten. Sadly over time many Coulee climbers will die climbing either at Vantage or far away. Some of us will know them some of us will not but their memories are all important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 I think it's a nice idea Erden, but I don't think renaming the route would be the best thing to try and acomplish. Goran fell on Air Guitar, and I think it should remain. Plus although I never met him, he sounds like the type of guy who would want us all to climb it and -on in his memory. Then again, I don't really climb out there, so my opinion may not be worth much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erden Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Lambone: Then again, I don't really climb out there, so my opinion may not be worth much. It is a vote, and as long as it is voiced, it counts. Erden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidW Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 I don't climb enough at Vantage to consider my opinion should carry much weight however I too tend to disfavor changing names. While I don't have any problem with carving thats done with some quality and style I have to agree with Mr. Puget that it does raise the issue of precedents. I'd say carve one for Bill too although then how do you deal all the other tragic ends that have occurred around our state..... are some people more deserving than others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 8, 2002 Author Share Posted October 8, 2002 Some people have friends willing to make the effort. Others have friends content to remember them without the plaques and stuff. To each their own. Its not like the dead person cares one way or other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 Memorials are for the living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 DavidW - I agree that's why I favor one simple memorial. Carving at the base seems out of place to me in any event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkrueger Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 Just because something is on the Internet, it doesn't mean that it is free for the taking. Images, words, and ideas are still copyrighted and trademarked, even though the law has been slow to keep up with the pace of the Internet. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should... As for renaming Air Guitar, I think it is a bad idea. As has been mentioned, it sets a bad precedent, contributes to confusion, and ignores tradition. I stood under that climb this summer, marveled at the beauty of the line, took a photo for inspiration, and added it to my tick list. When I do send it, it will now be all the more meaningful to me. And as far as a memorial is concerned, I think the best idea is a route in Goran's name - it honors him by doing what he lived for, doesn't require approval from any establishment, and is free. I think carving in the rock, even with the best intentions, is not aligned with a trad climber's values of preserving the rock as it is. A memorial honoring all contributors and tragedies is a wonderful idea, but this raises the questions of site approval and funding... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 8, 2002 Author Share Posted October 8, 2002 Yeah eventually you end up with a huge pile of junk emblazoned with names etc like below K2, Everest, The Eiger, Rainier and Si. [ 10-08-2002, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Dru ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_warfield Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 I believe that Bill Robins' routes will be documented in the next Vantage guide and that Yoder has most, if not all, of the route info on the web site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 quote: Originally posted by jkrueger: Just because something is on the Internet, it doesn't mean that it is free for the taking. Images, words, and ideas are still copyrighted and trademarked, even though the law has been slow to keep up with the pace of the Internet. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should... ... Seems like in this instance, though, the idea is to preserve some valuable information in a non-sneaky kind of way in order to keep it available, which sounds like the original intent. 'Tis a far cry from copying the info, crediting yourself with it, and selling it or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidW Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 Not to fan any flames here........ I offered to help erden carve but am willing to stand down in deference to prevailing opinion. has anyone here climbed at Indian Creek? It seems modern carving is graffitti....... but ancient carving is history..... at what point does a given alteration to the rock become a treasure as opposed to a travesty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted October 8, 2002 Share Posted October 8, 2002 DFA surmises that as an integral part of Native American culture and a potentially informative artifact of a now nonexistent people, pictographs are of legitimate historical value, and are thus treasured. Modern rock chippage, however, is not a part of American culture. There are many other media at our disposal to communicate and commemorate, rendering buggering with rocks obsolete, thus making modern rock-tinkering, in some eyes, a travesty. However, as a sport climber who frequently finds himself desperately clinging to chipped grips, far be it from the Doctor to condemn a chipped memorial; the above is just DFA's dos centavos on modern vs. ancient rock modification. [ 10-08-2002, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Dr Flash Amazing ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 8, 2002 Author Share Posted October 8, 2002 If you carve on the rock at frenchaman's coulee the rock piece with the carving will flake off by next week anyways right Mayb the carving should be on an already exfoliated chunk likethat Rodchester pic of the big piece with the bolt and quickdraw attached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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