Ireneo_Funes Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I want to figure out a good system for self-belaying on a solo TR setup. What do you folks who do a lot of solo toproping use for a belay? I've known folks who used a GriGri or a ropeman. I even saw a guy using a prussik once with no backup, which I thought was a little sketchy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_Simpkins Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I fix it at the top. When climbing take up slack with gri-gri. Tie a backup knot below gri-gri and clip in every once in a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Hi Dan: I have resorted to dropping a line and just tieing overhands or figue 8s and clipping in to those as you climb. It's a lead fall if you bothch it, but so what. Otherwise, I have 2 solo devices. Soloist and a Silent Partner, but you can use a jumar for TR too, don't want to take a fall onto any slack though, I've seen it used and used it myself many times before I got the solo devices. http://www.wrenindustries.com/ I still find myself soing the knot in the rope thing occasionally when a partner forgets to show and I want some vertical anyway. Gri Gri works too, ask Joseph H, he lead solos all the time with one. I'd sell one of these, probably the silent parner. How's $150 sound? Good condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stavrogin Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 i've had good luck usings an ushba basic ascender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ireneo_Funes Posted October 28, 2004 Author Share Posted October 28, 2004 Thanks Bill S. & Bill C. I just got a gri-gri and like the idea of getting some different uses out of it as long as it's reasonably safe. What's the big advantage of the soloist or the silent partner over the gri-gri? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b-rock Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 I've used a gri-gri many times. Usually I'll tie a few back up knots. RBW got me into using a steal biner because it's easy to get it crossloaded. Watched TG a few weeks ago follow free with an Ushba, pretty neat device. The advantage to that (or any ascender) is that you can fix or weight the rope at the bottom and you'll get a pretty good self feed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 A quicklink can replace that steel biner. I have the ushba ascender. It's a bit freaky being able to see so much daylight around the rope when you are climbing with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbw1966 Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 "teel biners" not actually accurate--its a steel quicklink. You can pick one up at Home Repo for pretty cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b-rock Posted October 28, 2004 Share Posted October 28, 2004 Right. Well I started with a quicklink but then I bought a locking steel biner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 the ushba, or the troll rocker, is way better than A) a jumar or B) a grigri. a cause its smoother and way less likely to crossload, and b cause you dont have to feed rope through. you don't want to know what happens if you fall on a big loop of slack you didnt find a rest to pull thru your gri gri. the main advantage of the quicklink is its long and skinny so doesnt crossload the way a biner does. self belay devices like to wander down the spine of a pearbiner as you climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCKY Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 I have used the rock exotica soloist The ushba basic accender for a top rope but you can't lead with it like the soloist but than again leading with the soloist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 I have used the rock exotica soloist I use the Soloist for TR'ing. I liked it better than Petzl Shunt, Gibbs, etc. The Soloist works better with thin 9.6mm ish lines. Also anchor the rope at the bottom for better feeding. You can borrow my Soloist (Rent to Own!) if your interested in trying it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ireneo_Funes Posted October 29, 2004 Author Share Posted October 29, 2004 Thanks guys, good information. Good idea on the quicklink vs. the pearbiner; I probably wouldn't have thought of that. I've heard that some people back themselves up by tying knots in a separate line (could be the other half of the rope you're climbing on if the pitch isn't more than 25-30m) and clipping into them. Seems like this would be smoother than tying backup knots mid-climb in the rope you're using to belay yourself. Any of you use a separate line for backup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin_Matlock Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 I've been interested in this too and have done some research on this. Let me say in advance that I've not done any soloing before and simply offer some of this random info that I’ve picked up as food for thought (use at your own discretion): -Yeah on what Bill said... Joseph H seems to be pretty knowledgeable soloing. Don't know him, but from what I've read of his posts, sounds like he might be a good info source if he doesn't mind the questions (Joseph – hope you don’t mind me volunteering you, and if you EVER hold a clinic let me know ). -About the grigri: at the gym I climb at, the route setters solo using grigris when setting lines. Looks really straight forward and they don't backup (but one could argue that a gym and real rock are hardly comparable). They just need to get to a decent jug in which the free hand can take up the slack on the tail end of the rope. -About the advantages of the soloist/silent partner over the grigri, is that the wren products are suppose to be self-feeding (the silent partner using a clove hitch). The grigri requires you to pull the slack through by hand. I have also seen altered grigris that are more true “self feeders”. I'm sure there could be lots of discussion about how safe/unsafe this practice is. Do a web search on this topic if interested. Also, some of the devices mentioned in this post require the use of a chest harness. This is just to assure that in the event of a fall that you load the rope in an upright position. -Don't forget that most of these devices require at minimum a 10mm or so rope. Too narrow and the caming device won't get enough drag to engage. -Some of the ascenders (like my old Wild Country Ropeman) have a cam with small barbs in which to grip the rope. I've read this has been shown to SHRED ropes sometimes during hard falls. This device was never intended for self belaying, but you could probably get away with it. It looks like the wedges with larger-tooth profile would be much gentler. -Quite a few people will tell you DON'T SOLO! It's stupid and dangerous, blah blah blah. Again, I'm sure that could be a major thread on it's own, but don't be surprised if you are doing it and someone flips you shit about how foolish you are. Personally, I think it's just a matter of choice. Sorry this is just a jumble of thoughts, but that's sort of how they came out. Have fun and let me know how you make out (if you try it)... I'm interested if it's as straight forward as it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 -About the advantages of the soloist/silent partner over the grigri, is that the wren products are suppose to be self-feeding (the silent partner using a clove hitch). The grigri requires you to pull the slack through by hand. I have also seen altered grigris that are more true “self feeders”. I'm sure there could be lots of discussion about how safe/unsafe this practice is. Do a web search on this topic if interested. Also, some of the devices mentioned in this post require the use of a chest harness. This is just to assure that in the event of a fall that you load the rope in an upright position. -Don't forget that most of these devices require at minimum a 10mm or so rope. Too narrow and the caming device won't get enough drag to engage. You've never tried a Soloist w/a 10.5mm/11mm rope. They don't self feed. Smaller is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billygoat Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Dru's got it right. For top rope soloing, the Troll or Yates Rocker (same same) It is the best, safest and easiest on the rope. It is solely made for this application. $90 new Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k.rose Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Having used the gri-gri on a fixed line now for several years for solo toproping I've come to the conclusion that it kinda sucks. What I use now is a mini-traxion on a fixed line and its far superior no more having to pull slack periodically as the device travels up the rope as you climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin_Matlock Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Having used the gri-gri on a fixed line now for several years for solo toproping I've come to the conclusion that it kinda sucks. What I use now is a mini-traxion on a fixed line and its far superior no more having to pull slack periodically as the device travels up the rope as you climb. k.rose - Looks like this has those small barbs. You ever Any problems with rope shred during hard falls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k.rose Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 The few time I've felt I was going to fall I simply pulled on the rope below the device which cinches it up then it's just like weighting a jumar, no rope damage. Generally I use this set up on climbs in the 5.8 to easy 5.10 range stuff you can do multiple laps on to develop a pump as opposed to using it to really push my free climing ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Hi all, Yes, I've done a lot of roped soloing (free and aid) over the years and the bottom line for me is I always feel horrified the first pitch or two, or the first half hour (whichever is shorter) and then the experience just transforms into one that's utterly and completely sublime and serene - even better if no one else is around. However, keep in mind it is also an exceptionally clear and powerful mirror that on more than one occassion has sent me packing from the rock because it showed me I didn't have my shit together that day. It is as self-reliant as you can get without ditching the rope and free soloing and for the right folks I highly recommend it. It is also faster than climbing with a partner once you have an act down with it. As far as how can you tell if you should do a roped solo - you'll know because one day partnering won't work out and it will either be rope soloing, bouldering, or going home - which you choose to do will probably be pretty definitive. I started roped soloing during my first trip to Boulder in '75. I'd call people from the climbers board at Boulder Mountaineering and have a great conversation, set up a time to meet, and then just before hanging up they'd ask me where I was from and I'd say, "Illinois", and suddenly they'd remember a dental appointment. On a day that happened I saw the Yosemite Roped Solo (YSR) technique in a book at the store and said, well, what the hell. I had planned on going up to Castle Rock in Boulder Canyon so went up there and ended up using some slings for aiders and giving it a whirl on "The Aid Roof". Never having aided before, I ended up a swirling, comedic mass of rope and slings (a nearby belayer almost dropped his partner he was laughing so hard). I ended up dropping back to the ground with the middle of the rope, re-aided it, and finally figured it all out. The next day I did the Bastille Crack and ran into Brashears and Wunsch at the top while they were working on "Rain" and got to give the crux on that a whirl as well and after that had no problem with partners - but I've been in love with roped soloing ever since. And really, my first real roped solo on the Bastille Crack (with just nuts back then) is probably still one of my fondest climbing experiences (repeated whenever I'm through there). Anyway, that's how I got started with it, fustration and desperation... So here is a pointer to another thread where I describe the method I now use after Bud Smith finally convinced me to switch over to his method. Now that I have a bunch of experience with it I agree with DWR and Dru relative to going steel with the device attachment to the harness to guard against crossloading. I am very, very precise and specific about the grigri placement on the belay loop and its orientation to me, the rope, and the harness - I further monitor the relative positions of all these components all the time. I'd be more inclined to set it and forget it with steel. But you should be aware that regardless of the technique or device, you need to pay attention to and constantly monitor all device/rope/harness interations - not to the point of preoccupation, just be aware of what's going on as crossloading in a fall is a real concern with the use of any device regardless of the solo technique. Link to thread with post describing my (Bud Smith's) roped solo technique with a grigr As far as rope drag, yeah you have to deal with it, but it's never been a problem at all. I use an unmodified grigri and haven't been at all motivated to mod it due to rope drag. One technical note: you should use some form of Screamer/Air Voyager between your anchors and rope end when leading with roped solo devices. And with regard to other devices: I do have Petzl Mini- and Pro-Traxions, but I hesitate to use them exactly because of the barbed teeth Kevin mentioned will probably do some shredding. I'm not familiar with the Rocker or Ushba device Dru mentioned but I'd be inclined to trust his judgment. My partner for years has used a Soloist for top ropes and leads and generally likes it (or at least still uses it). I personally don't like the whole chest harness arrangement it requires. The Silent Partner really looks like the way to go other than a) it's bigger than a breadbox and b) Packing a device out to the rock that is only used for roped soloing almost too explicitly states "I'm going out to solo" - and to be honest, some days are like that, but most of the times I like to leave my options pretty loose and and do what I feel like when I get there - a grigri more implicitly advertises simply the possibility. Bill's simple approach of dropping a separate rope down the cliff works on short TR-size cliffs. There are lot's of ways to TR it with devices: prusik (sucks), Soloist, Petzl Shunt, Grigri, Mini-Traxion, etc. You can also tie figure eights every so often in it and put two draws (preferrably with lockers on your side) on your belay loop and leap frog them up the knots. You can also lead this way if you'd rather not place pro. Lead normally clipping the figure eights like they were bolts. A lot of these types of approaches to solo TR work better if the bottom of the rope is anchored or weighted (I prefer weighted); but never so tight the rope won't go through mechanical devices if you're using one (though if your leading and clipping an anchored line you may want to fix the bottom to insure the clips will be available). Enjoy - feel free to ask any other questions here or pm me. And if we can do a clinic next summer out at Beacon if anyone is interested... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal_Burton Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 I've been very happy with using a mini-traxion the last few years. They run super smoothly, hardly have to think about it. I use a 9.8 rope that is very new, (shortened by rockfall) and has plenty of spring left in it. This, I hope, will limit the force on the cam/rope connection and lessen the threat of a shred. I've never had any kind of sheath damage while TR'ing with the mini-traxion and I'll pitch off things pretty confidently. I don't do any back-up knots or second rope. Too much trouble. If I was buying a TR-solo-only device I'd get a Troll/Yates Rocker. These also run extremely smoothly and have some designed in slippage at higher forces. The mini-traxion makes a nice little wall hauler as well, so it is somewhat multifunction. For a lengthy analysis of several types of these devices you can thrutch your way through this: www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_pdf/2001/crr01364.pdf Enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JosephH Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Reading Hal's comment, I realize I should be clearer about my comment on "toothed" devices. I agree with Hal and others that in a solo TR situation (which I've done next to none of...) a Petzl Traxion device or any other device with teeth would probably be just fine - it's really only an issue with lead falls and even then it's just a matter of shredding your sheath, the device will still stop you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_pdf/2001/crr01364.pdf This is a very interesting report (166 pages long). It has data on various forces generated by jumarring, climbing TR and lead.. For instance, jumarring or top-rope falls develop about 2kN of force for a 75 kg person. The Ushba Basic ascender cuts the rope at around 5.5 kN. So that's why you won't want to use the Ushba (or an ascender like a Jumar) for a lead belay. Or, like I've seen some people do, extend the device with a sling to your harness instead of clip directly to it. Worth reading. I think there's details on the GriGri modification too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shapp Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 Am I missing something, the dude wanted to know about solo TR TOP ROPING, not leading. All this long discussion of solo leading is wasted words in this thread. If you have to asked on the internet how to do it, I would think twice before trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 29, 2004 Share Posted October 29, 2004 wasted words bla bla bla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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