equalizing with daisy chain

[salbrecher]

I can't really think of a reason why it wouldn't be ok to equalize a gear anchor with a daisy chain, or two if you didn't have a sling. Is there?

[Alpinfox]

Individual loops on a daisy are not very strong (some manufacturers list ~3 or 4kN). A modest lead fall can EASILY generate that much force. This would cause extension of the anchor system. Whether that "zippering" of the daisy would act like a screamer and dissipate some energy or result in the anchor pro being subjected to a larger force is something that someone with a better physics background than myself will have to answer.

[nalo]

Some company, I think It is metolius, makes a product similar to a daisy chain that is strong enough for equilization. basically, its a bunch of 12 inch sewn runners that pass through each other, like links in a regular chain. Each link is as strong as your standard sewn runner. good luck and dont die

[John Frieh]

In a pinch you could assuming you only clipped endpoints as end to end daisies are as strong as sewn slings (like fox explained: individual pockets are very weak). The daisies would have to be unattached to you (i.e no girth hitched through your harness… which wouldn't matter as one should always attach ones self to the anchor with the rope). As daisies are so short and have only two ends you could only get a two piece anchor.

 

WRT Nalo's comment: the PAS from metolius is not stronger than other slings end to end... the metolius one allows for the clipping of individual pockets with out risking blowing at pocket at low loads.

 

Make sense?

[iain]

Daisy chains are often much more worn than regular runners.

 

The "zippering" of a daisy is certainly not a safety feature!!! When the pockets rip out, the webbing is damaged at the pocket tacks. When you do slow pull on them, the webbing breaks at the pocket tacks after they rip. You can even break a daisy without all the pockets ripping. They are strong but I would not consider them runner-strength end-to-end, and I would definitely want the rope in the anchor as a back-up.

[chris_w]

I'd say if that is all you have, then use it. My understanding of the daisy chain is that it's use if for static loads, not shock loads like a leader fall.

 

If you need to adjust the length, you shouldn't clip a biner into two loops. There is a chance the biner is only attached to the stitching between the loops and not the main stitching (which is stronger and the proper way.

 

I put an overhand knot between the first and second loop so I can double clip the daisy. When I double clip, there still is a chance that some stitching will blow but I will still be protected from the main stitching.

[matt_m]

Short Answer - No, don't do it.

 

Long Answer - This has been debated at length but for almost all situations, a Daisy chain does not provide enough strength to be used as an anchor. BD's tech guy a while back did testing on daises and found that when a pocket does blow it ALSO significantly weakens the chain end-to-end. I personal recommend against using a daisy and wholly think the PAS is THE way to go for this sort of thing. A lot of people still insist on the daisy because it's less expensive. If you want to go less expensive a 2 foot runner works fine a lot of the time or a 3 foot with a knot or two in it.

 

Daisies are aid gear so you don't drop you stuff NOT an anchor solution.

Edited October 1, 2004 by matt_m

[ken4ord]

My friend was out here this weeekend and he was just as surprised as I was to see how many people use daisies to anchor in. He also showed me something I never thought of, where somebody shortening up to the anchor can be released from the anchor. Here is the scenario, check it for yourself. So if you take the last loop and clip into the anchor, but it is too long and you want to shorten it up, be closer to the anchor. A common short cut is to clip one of the loops that is closer to your harness into the biner without unclipping the end loop. The problem is that if the loops blow out it releases the person from being anchored in. Also, when you do this you load the stitches with an outward pull, which weaker than across. Granted a bit of force is still needed to blow out the loops, but I personally would not want to risk that. My suggestion is to learn how to tie a clove hitch with the rope, it make you dynamic to the anchor, it is adjustable with out having to open your biner, and you don't need to have some silly sling wrapped around your harness while you are climbing. Furthermore as for buliding anchor with a daisy I would reccomend against it for basically the same reasons stated above. If you are out of slings use the rope to anchor yourself to the peices individually, (check out Freedom of the Hills and John Longs, Anchors book on how to do this, it is very easy, again just need to know how to tie a clove hitch).

 

 

Yes, I meant clove hitch instead of girth hitch. Sorry.

Edited October 5, 2004 by ken4ord

[Squid]

Ken-

I've never seen an anchor constructed by girth-hitching the rope to the anchor. I've seen slings girth-hitched, and I use the rope clove-hitched, but I'm a little confused on how to girth-hitch the rope (maybe I'm just slow this morning).

Can you direct me to pages in FotH, or to a website that would illustrate this?

[thelawgoddess]

i'm thinking he meant clove hitch.

[Squid]

yup, but the glowing prospect of learning something new keeps me on the edge of my seat.

[ken4ord]

Dope my bad, I'll fix that. Yes clove hitch.

[Squid]

You tease!

 

I was all excited and everything.

[willstrickland]

So if you take the last loop and clip into the anchor, but it is too long and you want to shorten it up, be closer to the anchor. A common short cut is to clip one of the loops that is closer to your harness into the biner without unclipping the end loop. The problem is that if the loops blow out it releases the person from being anchored in

 

 

This doesn't make sense to me. If you have clipped the end loop, and DON'T unclip it, but then clip an intermediate loop into the same biner as well...now having two non-adjacent loops clipped...how would it fail?

 

The only way I can conceptualize this happening is if you clip two adjacent loops into the same biner, where you are then relying purely on the stitching between those two loops as your lifeline.

 

I anchor in with a spectra daisy all the time (in addition to the rope) and I routinely shorten it by clipping off another loop. As long as the end loop stays clipped and you don't clip the adjacent one, there is no issue. Worst case is you zipper pockets until you reach the end loop at which point you have a weaker sewn-sling type configuration going on. Hell even if that blows out, you've got the rope into the anchor.

[iain]

Depending on the twisting in the daisy chain between the loops you have clipped, you could become unclipped in a loop-ripping fall.

 

Here's a graphic from when it was discussed before here:

[RuMR]

So if you take the last loop and clip into the anchor, but it is too long and you want to shorten it up, be closer to the anchor. A common short cut is to clip one of the loops that is closer to your harness into the biner without unclipping the end loop. The problem is that if the loops blow out it releases the person from being anchored in

 

 

This doesn't make sense to me. If you have clipped the end loop, and DON'T unclip it, but then clip an intermediate loop into the same biner as well...now having two non-adjacent loops clipped...how would it fail?

 

The only way I can conceptualize this happening is if you clip two adjacent loops into the same biner, where you are then relying purely on the stitching between those two loops as your lifeline.

 

I anchor in with a spectra daisy all the time (in addition to the rope) and I routinely shorten it by clipping off another loop. As long as the end loop stays clipped and you don't clip the adjacent one, there is no issue. Worst case is you zipper pockets until you reach the end loop at which point you have a weaker sewn-sling type configuration going on. Hell even if that blows out, you've got the rope into the anchor.

 

no will, if you pop all of the intermediate pockets you will be outside the main loop...go build one out of a strip of paper and staples and try it at your desk...plus, you'll get some funny looks from your coworkers...hahahaha

[selkirk]

Depending on the twisting in the daisy chain between the loops you have clipped, you could become unclipped in a loop-ripping fall.

 

Here's a graphic from when it was discussed before here:

 

50/50 aren't very good odds. Can change that though if you through and overhand in the last loop on the daisy where your biner is, or girth hitch the daisy to the biner. Then even if all the pockets rip your still tied in due to the knot. Either that or just get one of the metolius jobbies.

[willstrickland]

Gotcha. I think an important factor is that the end loops are not stiched the same way the pockets are, they are stiched much more heavily and more like a sewn sling. I.e. they are full strength.

 

If you can blow the stiching on the end pocket...which is what would have to happen for this scenario to play out, then you would also have blown apart a normal sewn sling. If you can do that, you're toofahking fat, so loose some weight beyotch.

 

I am always backed up w/ the rope anyway. And I really don't see how you could even hope to generate enough force to rip the end loop tacking without taking a full length factor 2 onto the daisy.

[Alpinfox]

In the above diagram, why is it 50%? Seems like if you clip ANY two loops with a single biner and all the loops blew out the biner would be outside the circle. Seems like it should be 100%? Am I stupid?

 

My understanding of the daisy chain is that it's use if for static loads, not shock loads like a leader fall.

 

There is no intrinsic difference between a "static" load and a "shock" load. Force = force. It is true that leader falls tend to generate higher forces than smaller falls. Duh.

 

Except in a wierd aid climbing or "via feratta" system, a daisy/sling anchor is never going to be the only connection to the anchor in a fall. For example, if a leader takes a factor two fall (no pro between them and the belayer) and the belayer is belaying directly from his/her harness without a redirection through the anchor, there is still rope in the system that will stretch and disperse energy.

 

Remember, there is no such thing as an immovable object (except for Trask's mom).

 

Re: Will's comment about stitching. My daisy (Fixe brand) has 5 bar tacks at every loop so I think it's stronger than most. However, the way the carabiner would pull against the stitching in a daisy is different than the way the stitching gets pulled in a standard sling. With a daisy loop, the carabiner kind of pries the stitching apart... I can't explain that very well, but if you try to visualize it, you'll understand what I mean. I would guess that much less force would be needed to rip a daisy loop with five tacks than a standard sling with five tacks.

 

[ken4ord]

50% or 100% coming unclipped, I'll have to check that, I don't really care personally cause I don't use that set up. The chances of blowing out stitching, is low, maybe never has happened, who knows.

 

I guess I just don't understand why use a daisy chain? What is the advantage of using a daisy chain and locking biner (for an application that they are not designed for) over just using a locking biner and the rope? I have yet to see any advantages using a daisy. Though I can think of advantages to using the rope and locker over using a daisy and locker. (1) your dynamically attached to the anchor (though sometimes it is minimal), (2) You can adjust the distance from the anchor to almost any length you want, dependant on how much slack you have after you have pulled up all the rope, (3) adjusting the anchor length you should never have to unclip or open your locking biner for any reason, (4) one less item you have to bring along. Anyone have any answers to why daisies are more advantageous, please share?

[Bug]

I do not carry a daisy chain unless I am aiding and then it pisses me off how often it gets hung up on everything.

Don't let the salesmen screw you. Spend your money on another draw or piece.

[Alpinfox]

Anyone have any answers to why daisies are more advantageous, please share?

 

Think single pitch climbin' Ken. When you get to the top of a pitch and need to thread the rope through the chains to get down, you can't be tied in with the rope. So you use a daisy or sling. Slings aren't length adjustable, which can be a pain in the arse for awkwardly placed anchors. That's why people use daisies. I don't use daisies except for aid climbing. I use a sling and/or rope and a locking biner for anchoring.

 

Attaching with daisy or sling to the anchor rather than rope also helps reduce clusterfuck potential on multipitch routes. Not a big deal for folks that are experienced at stacking the rope and swapping leads etc.

 

There is nothing unsafe about using a daisy to anchor oneself assuming you do not belay directly off of your harness. If you must belay directly from your harness without redirecting the rope through the anchor, make sure you are anchored with something full-strength (the rope or a sling).

[Bill_Simpkins]

Use the rope.

[chucK]

Other than the obvious aid-climbing answer I've found a daisy useful when rapping multiple pitches and when climbing with three people where you end up switching ropes a lot. In both of these cases anchoring with the rope is not in the cards.

 

Yes, you can anchor with a sling, but it's not as convenient (length is not adjustable) and unless you're carrying a sling especially for anchoring yourself (in which case you might as well be carrying a daisy) sometimes you end up at an anchor without a sling.

 

Also, if climbing with just one rope, the daisy makes a convenient second tie-off.

 

If I'm climbing with two people, with two ropes, and there's not going to be 10+ raps to get off the thing, or in some alpine situation where every bit of weight is important, I won't bring my daisy. Otherwise, it can come in handy.

[Bill_Simpkins]

I agree, on rappells or 3 people is more convenient to have a sling. I don't carry a daisey because I can just use a sling. The daisy just gets in the way (for me).

There is a cool trick you can do with a caribiner to shorten and lengthen slings real fast without tying knots.

If the sling is too long, just clip a biner to one side of the loop and rap one side of the sling around the spine of the biner.

Generally though, a cows tail is a good length for me for hanging rap stations.