Ice-Sporto Litter

[MervGriffin]

Went up to the Tooth yesterday and passed that attrocious bolted overhanging "mixed climb" that someone must think is really special. If this line of closely-spaced bolts in a wilderness area isn't bad enough, it is presently festooned with quick-draws and 'biners from bottom to top. Whoever is responsible should go in and collect their garbage.

[Alex]

I would like to respectfully correct Merv. The Rap Wall is outside the wilderness boundary, as is the Tooth and Bryant Peak.

 

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=47.4568&lon=-121.4562&size=s&symshow=n&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25

 

Please take your anti-bolting stance elsewhere.

 

Thanks, Alex

[iain]

[Cpt.Caveman]

Please take your anti-bolting stance elsewhere.

 

Not acceptable to be "anti bolt" on this web site.

 

Because the majority advocate it here. DARE to be free thinking and you will get your post removed and shoved in spray.

 

Maybe I should bust out the crowbar again. I am feeling feisty and willstrickland is in town. This place is fucking disgusting sometimes. The moderators are more arrogant than the sprayers.

[ashw_justin]

You'll ruin somebody's pinkpointing saga!

[MervGriffin]

Please take your anti-bolting stance elsewhere.

 

What Caveman said.

 

So...is there an official party dogma here in which apparently unpopular viewpoints are to be shown the door?

 

REGARDLESS of whether "Rap Wall" is in a designated wilderness area or not, a lot of gear has been left (abandoned?), so whoever is responsible should go in and collect their extensive garbage which litters a beautiful mountain area.

 

Maybe you should take an awareness workshop from these guys:

 

Leave No Trace

[DPS]

 

Maybe I should bust out the crowbar again. I am feeling feisty and willstrickland is in town.

 

Have I got a bolted crack for you then.

[Greg_W]

Is anyone other than Roger Strong developing that area? Alex?

[NYC007]

is it the line thats in the new BD catalogs? Ghost Dog

[Alex]

Several things:

 

Dwyaner, I personally am not pro-bolt or anti-bolt. However I take exception when anyone attacks something this sensitive using false statements, especially when it is you, with your past record on this issue. I find you hypocritical when you take your podium about these routes in particular when there is a well-established ski area half a mile away, in this same "beautiful mountain area", and bolted crags exist nearby with longer approaches than this crag. If you want to rant away about bolts, do so, but don't post lies. If you want the trash removed, you are certainly welcome to go remove the draws and return them to the person who is currently attempting to redpoint that route. (If you want to make a career of removing trash, you should go to Smith Rock.) If you just want to chop some bolts or howl about the injustice done to the rock, then there are pleanty others that exist in other beautiful mountain areas of Washington more remote than Alpental, the most heavily used recreation areas within 50 miles of Seattle, that anyone could point you at.

 

Ray, "this place is fucking disgusting sometimes. The moderators are more arrogant than the sprayers. " Its funny you always draw this distinction between moderators and other board members when it suits. I am not a modertor of this forum, I am a climber. Its too bad you don't think that someone who is a moderator could be free-thinking, a climber, and a moderator all at the same time.

 

Greg_W, not to my knowledge.

 

NYC007, yes, Ghost Dog. Last I heard from Roger he was stuck in Alaska, but is one hang away from the <edit>pinkpoint </edit>.

Edited September 9, 2004 by Alex

[ashw_justin]

coughcoughahpinkpointcough. Oh, pardon me.

[fern]

 

What is the lie here? And what does the proximity of a ski area have to do with it? You can't see the ski area from where this crag is. If those bolts didn't have bright red and yellow draws hanging from them then Merv never would have even seen them to get all affronted. Some people believe in minimizing visual impact wherever possible.

[MervGriffin]

Several things:

Dwyaner, I personally am not pro-bolt or anti-bolt.

 

Then why do you ask me to "take my anti-bolt stance elsewhere?"

 

However I take exception when anyone attacks something this sensitive using false statements, especially when it is you, with your past record on this issue.

 

The only incorrect statement I may have made was whether it was within the wilderness boundaries and I stand corrected on that point. So you do acknowledge that it is sensitive or controversial? Why act surprised and outraged that someone doesn't like it?

 

I find you hypocritical when you take your podium about these routes in particular when there is a well-established ski area half a mile away, in this same "beautiful mountain area", and bolted crags exist nearby with longer approaches than this crag.

 

The existence of a nearby ski area does not excuse inappropriate behavior on a smaller scale. A few minutes hike away from Alpental and you're in a beautiful mountain area. Do you find the way up-valley ugly? I must disagree.

 

If you want to rant away about bolts, do so, but don't post lies.

 

Where are the lies? A lie is an intentional attempt to deceive. If I was wrong about the wilderness designation, than I acknowledge my mistake. Where are the other so-called lies? Do you think leaving gear all over the place is somehow O.K. because the site is just outside the boundary? As far as the other nearby sporty areas are concerned, I'm not familiar with them but my stance would probably be the same: keep them out of the mountains. I am addressing "Rap Wall" in particular because I personally saw this mess yesterday. The bolts are bad enough, but how can you justify leaving a mass of gear hanging from them?

 

If you want the trash removed, you are certainly welcome to go remove the draws and return them to the person who is currently attempting to redpoint that route.

 

Thanks for the invitation. I'm sure there are several folks here who wouldn't mind removing abandoned litter.

 

(If you want to make a career of removing trash, you should go to Smith Rock.)

 

It's not a career. And the situation at Smith sucks too.

 

If you just want to chop some bolts or howl about the injustice done to the rock, then there are pleanty others that exist in other beautiful mountain areas of Washington more remote than Alpental, the most heavily used recreation areas within 50 miles of Seattle, that anyone could point you at.

 

Perhaps we should start by cleaning up our own backyard?

 

P.S. Check into that "Leave No Trace" seminar. I think I might have seen a link to it on your own web-site?

[Dru]

it seems like quite a few people got mad when Argentinian party removed fixed hardware (rap rings) from Der Toof, nearby. Double standard? Or would removing these draws cause a similar outcry....

[Cpt.Caveman]

Ray, "this place is fucking disgusting sometimes. The moderators are more arrogant than the sprayers. " Its funny you always draw this distinction between moderators and other board members when it suits. I am not a modertor of this forum, I am a climber. Its too bad you don't think that someone who is a moderator could be free-thinking, a climber, and a moderator all at the same time.

 

When it suits? What example have you when a mod here has done anything for me? Other than remove posts that are valid and worthy of discussion many times.

 

If you want we can meet up and discuss in person.

 

Personally I've never liked your tone on this board from the get go and tried to get along. But the truth is that you are somewhat more arrogant than most here and offer beta on shit you don't know about *all the fucking time*. Armchair punter if you ask me.

 

 

At any rate. I'm back in fine form to shoot the shit. Get used to it.

[minx]

 

might i kindly suggest that we take the tired old bolt/anti-bolt remarks to a new thread in a more appropriate forum? i'm willing to bet that none of you has anything new to add to the debate and that you're not going to change anyone's mind but if you insist upon beating a dead horse take it someplace else.

 

visual impact as a broad topic should probably go someplace else too.

 

have a day,

minx

[ashw_justin]

It's funny how pre-placing gear went from somebody just doing it so they could work a project, to being an assumed and undebated fact of hard bolted climbing. If it is possible (and anything is possible...) to place the draws on lead, then that is how it should be climbed. But then again, alpine climbers leave fixed gear all over the place, in the wilderness so I don't see why they're bitching.

 

What it comes down to is style. Preplacing/leaving gear is bad style. When climbers start doing real redpoints (i.e. no or minimal preplaced gear) of today's testpieces, the pinkpointers are going to feel a little lame.

[catbirdseat]

You can preplace gear all you want, but take it with you when you go home for the day. Is it that difficult to rap off and pull the draws? This isn't a bolt pro/con issue. How long SHOULD one be albe to leave up the gear? A week? A month?

[iain]

It does seem a bit inappropriate to leave the draws up when the person is out of the state (if I read that correctly).

[Cpt.Caveman]

I AM KING OF ROCK POLICE > NO BOLTS AND NO DRAWS IN PLACE.

[specialed]

Mixed ice lines in the aplental area accessed via ski lifts are a great use of the area I think. Bolts or not - I could care less. Though I imagine if bolting not allowed lots of pins would be used - I sure would.

[jon]

blah blah blah

 

<advice>pick your wars</advice>

[mattp]

[Commentary]

Lets see if we can have a real discussion here. Titling a thread "ice sporto litter" and starting out by describing the climb as an "attrocious bolted overhanging "mixed climb" that someone must think is really special," with typical Dwayner-style venom and put-down, reminds me of prior threads based on the premise that sport climbers are cowards who do nothing but deface the rock.

 

Further, the statement that this route was in the wilderness, apart from the "technical" distinction of where the actual legal boundary lies, seemed (to me) a bit exaggerated.

 

In my opinion, the past net effect of threads that started out like this, or headed this direction before they were done, has been to get lots of people mad, drive many users away from the board, and to stifle conversation about important issues.

 

Lets try to keep this discussion more "on track."[/Commentary]

 

I agree with those who feel that leaving the draws in place when you leave the area is poor form. There may be reasons for it in some places, and maybe somebody thought they had a good reason for doing it in this case, but it seems to have become a much more widely accepted practice than I would like to see.

 

Another point that I fear could get lost if we descend to a discussion of whether bolted mixed climbing is OK in the first place is where might such a bolted mixed climb be appropriate? I gotta say, I am not all that psyched about modern "mixed" climbing... but if there was a place anywhere in the State that a climb like this might be appropriate, wouldn't it be at Snoqualmie Pass, just outside the Alpental ski area? As I understand the Ski Area license, this location is indeed probably just a couple hundred yards outside their area.

[iain]

Do people have a problem with the current state of affairs in Canada? Seems like they are a few years ahead in this area and we could learn from decisions made there.

[Dru]

But most of the mixed crags in Canada are not 15m high chunks of rock next to a popular hiking trail... Louise Falls area excepted...