Brad_CA Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 I'm sure this has been posted somewhere before, but is it OK to rap off a sling without putting a biner on there? Also, can someone very simply tell me what the difference is between how double ropes differ from a 10.5 or something? Quote
jonthomp Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 I'm sure this has been posted somewhere before, but is it OK to rap off a sling without putting a biner on there? Don't! This is a good way to die. The rope stretch as you rap can cut the sling. I wouldn't recommend it. Quote
dberdinka Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 If the sling is in good shape upon careful inspection you can rap off a sling. However rope drag will potentially be worse when you need to pull the rope (bad for you) also a rope pulled directly through sling material can "burn" the sling resulting in eventual failure (bad for everyone else). Use your own judgement. Double ropes can have the avantage of reducing rope-drag when used on wandering terrain if used correctly! On big (alpine) routes doubles (or twins - simply thinner versions of doubles) have the advantage of allowing full rope length rappelling without having to carry or drag a second rap/trail line. If your new to climbing and focused on cragging stick to single ropes. Quote
bDubyaH Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 yes you can rap off a sling. just be sure to place your own sling as pulling the rope can start melting the sling i.e. don't use old slings. also use cordlette instead of webbing. double ropes are great for meandering routes, trad and ice climbs(less rope drag) and you have two ropes for rappel. rope management becomes really important Quote
Ryan Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 I rap off of slings all the time in the winter. The key is to only RAP off of the slings and not to be LOWERED...lowering off of a sling will cause the sling to become frayed and in most cases it will break. Whenever the possibility of rapping off of slings is present, I always carry my own webbing with me that I can leave. Rapping off of existing slings is a gamble- inspect and use as you see fit. As for the ropes, double ropes have a diamater of somewhere between 8 and 9 mils, and are designed to be used in conjunction with another double rope, with each rope clipped into an alternate piece of protection. Each rope is capable of holding a fall by itself. This system excels in ice climbing where you can have a backup rope in case something happens where one of your ropes gets cut by ice, crampons, axes, etc. In trad climbing this system is useful on routes that wander...rope drag won't be an issue becuase you can clip ropes to pieces on alternate sides of the route. A 10.5 mm rope is a single line. This type of line can hold more falls than a double rope and is commonly used in sport climbing and clean trad lines. I'm not too familiar with the impact forces of double ropes vs. single ropes- anyone else know what the advantages/disadvantages are in regards to this issue? Quote
dbb Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 A lot of people worry about the ropes jerking back and forth on a webbing rappel, causing the rope to saw at the webbing. There were some interesting home tests done that show this isn't really a problem, and the rope actually breaks before the webbing. Details here: http://mtncommunity.org/dcforum/DCForumID1/1531.html That being said, I'm a little warry of old slings that have been repeatedly rapped off of in this way. Quote
Dru Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 i rap off slings straight maybe 95% of the time and add a quicklink the rest of the time. but i encourage everyone to rap off a biner so there are booty biners out there for me to score Quote
chucK Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 Bootying a biner off a midpitch bail is one thing, but ripping off biners from established rap stations is lame . Quote
jonthomp Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 You're still better off placing a rap ring on the webbing. One less thing to go wrong. I too have rapped off slings only (too cheap to leave a biner), but I still wouldn't recommend it. If you're going to do it, it's definitely worth using your own webbing so you know what quality it is in. Quote
John Frieh Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 Is your life worth the cost of a rap ring? As far as what AMGA teaches (and by no means is this the final definitive correct answer) its a no no. Quote
Dru Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 Bootying a biner off a midpitch bail is one thing, but ripping off biners from established rap stations is lame . one time i got 4 locking biners and 2 spectra slings off orchard rock at peshastin. they were attached to a pair of rap rings Quote
fern Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 also if you don't trust the slings and want to add a new one of your own that you do trust then cut out all the other junky ones. If they're no longer trustworthy then they're just garbage that needs to be cleaned up so do your part. Quote
iain Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 do I need an AMGA approved knife to cut the slings? Quote
lummox Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 rapping off a sling aint no big thing. i wouldnt lower or toprope though i be straight tripping yo without some bling like a biner or screw link a ding. telling you. Quote
Rodchester Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 Can you set a Speed Record for rappelling? Verified....or unverified? Quote
Stumph Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 A carabiner left anywhere is free for the taking, it is garbage on the route. Any anchor with more than two rap-rings has extra that are are free for the taking. Except for bolts, any gear stuck in a crack is free for the taking. Any rap station which has so much webbing that you can't feed your own through has too much garbage on it. I always clean rap stations if necessary (replace the webbing, and leave two rings) an encourage everyone else to as well. Carry a small knife (AMGA approved), enough webbing, and enough rap-rings when you climb to be self-sufficient. And here is a side note, why don't those crag monopolizing, high impacting crowds known as "Mountianeers" justify their existence and replace more rap stations with chains and steel rings? Quote
Dr_Crash Posted May 17, 2004 Posted May 17, 2004 Are you saying a carabiner on a rappel sling is free for the taking, but not a rap ring? Sounds weird to me. I'd leave the biner on for the next guys. RE: the replacement question. I don't know if you were attacking the Mountaineers org or anybody who claims to be a mountaineer (no capital) and doesn't enhance places (s)he uses heavily... In any case, sounds like people who spend a lot of time at an established spot could try to see if Climbing's anchor replacement initiative program would work with them. I'm new to that whole thing but I'll gladly contribute some time if needed. So will you to justify your existence, right? drC Quote
catbirdseat Posted May 18, 2004 Posted May 18, 2004 I want to clarify something about cutting out old rap slings before replacing with your own new one. Cut out all of the worst old ones save the one best and then add your own. That way, it only costs you one sling and you still have one decent backup sling. Don't go on one sling unless there is no other choice (I've done this on more than one occasion). If all the old slings are tattered, I might leave two in addition to my own. Obviously, if there are two slings that look new, I'm going to use them. Why should I waste one of my own? One time there were 16 slings on a horn at East Wilman's Spire. I cut out 8 and decided enough is enough, I didn't want to carry any more junk, and went on the remaining eight(!) Rap rings are an issue of convenience, not of safety. I'm far more likely to use one on a double rope rappel, especially if it is over lower angle terrain. I know this guy named klenke who saves old slings he finds on rap stations to use in the future as backup slings. Of course, when you don't have a job, you learn to economize, as I am beginning to learn. Quote
Stumph Posted May 18, 2004 Posted May 18, 2004 What I was trying to say is that I will take a biner but leave a rap ring. Rap rings are safe, cheap, and lightweight, there is no reason to climb without a few on your rack. I feel that I go far to improve anchors and that scoring a biner now and then is OK. Another note, I was taught for safety to rap off of locking biners (or two opposite-opposed non-locking) not one regular biners. Regular biners run the risk of unclipping. Is that still the norm? And to the response to one or more piece or anchor webbing...If you are reasonable sure there is still some fresh webbing on the anchor it can't hurt to have an extra piece or two, but I have rapped/belayed off of one piece of 1" tubular on many occasions (through mult-anchors of course). Quote
catbirdseat Posted May 18, 2004 Posted May 18, 2004 I've seen bail biners with tape wrapped around the gate to prevent them from opening. Not a bad idea. Quote
lummox Posted May 18, 2004 Posted May 18, 2004 I've seen bail biners with tape wrapped around the gate to prevent them from opening. Not a bad idea. not a good one either. i actually had to rap off anchors this weekend where taped crabiners attached chains to the hangers. fukin gay as a three dollar bill. screwlinks are better and less pricey and lighter and smarter and better looking. Quote
Dru Posted May 18, 2004 Posted May 18, 2004 yeah, if you wrap tape around the gate i have to cut the tape off to booty the biner Quote
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