Abu Gharaib is Little League

[gotterdamerung]

Compared to these ARABS our methods of 'torture' can hardly be defined as that. A few naked pics? Who fucking cares. Get a clue.

 

Who's turn to be indignant? Back to the killing fields for me. Fuck the towelheads. We've apologized. Now let's get over it, and put the focus back on some of these assholes who are far worse. I don't feel bad for those Arabs in Abu Gharaib one tiny bit. They were probably setting IED's on the road trying to blow up little Johnny in his HMMV and now you're all up in arms about the same dude being stripped naked and having his genitals laughed at???

 

I do find it sick that soldiers could be so unprofessional and stupid, but they were reservists so what do you expect? They're civilian clowns in uniform. A year ago they were on the block smoking dope. Bleeding heart Americans better wake up. For all your violence in video games, love of violence in movies, WWF worshipping, tough talking, shit talking, posturing, you all seem pretty soft to me.

 

Saudi Sadists

 

 

"It initially started with punchings and kickings, and that progressed from beating me on the soles of my feet to being hung upside down in a position known as the chicken -- with your feet uppermost and your feet and backside exposed, readily available for beating,” says Sampson. “And between interrogation sessions, I was returned to the same cell and handcuffed to the door, so I couldn't sit down and I couldn't sleep.”

 

He said that after being beating on the soles of his feet and chained to the door, he stood in agony: “There’s no way you can, I could even kneel down in that position, and so I'd be standing on my feet which were swollen, so badly swollen that they were actually exuding plasma through the skin.”

 

[cj001f]

WTF is your point? The US has known the Saudi regime is a bunch of corrupt, psychopathic nuts for decades. Who extort their population for the betterment of themselves, covertly (and not so covertly) fund terrorists and fundamentalists. Who brutalize their own populations, and foreigners (hell, just try to get a visa!)

 

We haven't done squat.

 

They are also the swing oil producer - coincedence?

[AlpineK]

Yep the Saudis are a fucked up bunch.

 

However we went over there to bring freedom and democracy to those guys. It stands to reason that we've got to be pure as the new driven snow when it comes to our behavior. It's not good enough to say that those guys are worse than we are...there should be nothing to compare if we're not to be seen as hypocrits.

[olyclimber]

I believe there is a controversial movie called "Fahrenheit 9/11" that links the Bush family to the Saudis. Mr. Gotterdamerung, I'm not sure if you're just flamebaiting or a blathering idiot, but I would appreciate it if you wouldn't refer to the reservist's over there as "unprofessional and stupid". My best friend is over there as a reserve, and I assure you that he is much more intelligent than you are. But I realize you're just talking trash to get "liberals" riled up. Good luck. I think there are others on this board that state the conservative view point much better, without making an ass of themselves as you have.

[Squid]

..but it might be awhile before you see Fahrenheit 9/11. Disney, concerned that it might lose lucrative tax breaks in the fine state of Florida (governed by Jeb Bush), won't distribute a film guaranteed to irritate knee-jerk conservatives.

You won't hear much about this issue in the US press, most of which is owned by one of the large info-media conglomerates, but luckily the BBC covers this.

The following link is only appropriate for those whose heads won't explode at the concept of uncensored media.

 

edited for drunken grammar

Edited May 10, 2004 by Squid

[Fairweather]

Actually Squid, I read about this on (gasp!) FOX News. Have you ever considered that people go to movies to be entertained, and film company execs simply decided that the $$$ loss from a sub-par film that confuses fact with fiction and is nothing more than the mindless rantings of an overwieight, loud-mouthed lunatic and would be unpalateable to the public at large? Remember, it is only a very, very small radical fringe who would put any credence in the idea that Bush allowed the attacks of 9/11/01 to happen.

 

On an even stranger twist regarding this film; I understand it was Mel Gibson's film company that fronted 5 million dollars to get the project started! WTF? It's a strange world, indeed.

[gotterdamerung]

I believe there is a controversial movie called "Fahrenheit 9/11" that links the Bush family to the Saudis. Mr. Gotterdamerung, I'm not sure if you're just flamebaiting or a blathering idiot, but I would appreciate it if you wouldn't refer to the reservist's over there as "unprofessional and stupid". My best friend is over there as a reserve, and I assure you that he is much more intelligent than you are. But I realize you're just talking trash to get "liberals" riled up. Good luck. I think there are others on this board that state the conservative view point much better, without making an ass of themselves as you have.

 

I referred to the perpetrators of the criminal acts using that specific verbiage. Try to read what I wrote without letting your emotions overcome you. Furthermore, having spent 7 years on active duty I would say that I am in a much better position to judge the readiness and overall professionalism of the reserve and National Guard component than you are. I spent time in the WARNAG as an infantrymen and also in 19th SF GRP (ABN) after leaving active duty so once again I have a perspective you don't. On top of that I have been in Iraq since July and have contact with all branches of service, both active duty and reserves on a daily basis. I would take the active duty folks on missions with me any day over reserves. As a matter of fact we insist on it.

 

So before you go getting your panties in a bunch and making claims your ass can't back up step back and consider the source of the original information.

 

Have a nice day.

 

G

[EWolfe]

Remember, you are posting under an avatar.

 

Everyone knows who I am.

 

That aside, I think Mike Moore is exploiting and opportunistic in his material and timing.

 

Good for him. But I can't blame Disney, either.

 

I wonder if the perspective has changed since Eisner is gone?

 

Probably not.

 

Like I have told you, GD, I respect and support the men and women n the field, but not the policy that got you there.

 

[lummox]

I do find it sick that soldiers could be so unprofessional and stupid, but they were reservists so what do you expect? They're civilian clowns in uniform. A year ago they were on the block smoking dope. Bleeding heart Americans better wake up. For all your violence in video games, love of violence in movies, WWF worshipping, tough talking, shit talking, posturing, you all seem pretty soft to me.

i appreciate your anger. not getting laid will do that to a person. but it is misdirected towards 'pretty soft' americans and our psuedo violent culture. you seem to be resisting acknowledgement that the 'civilian clowns' have fuked up public relations towards the rest of the world for like ever. and that aint good. aint nothing being broadcast by the prison photos relates to 'weapons of mass destruction' or 'compassionate conservatism' or the profit margin of haliburton corp. that 'torture' crap was a total fuckup.

[markinore]

I do find it sick that soldiers could be so unprofessional and stupid, but they were reservists so what do you expect? They're civilian clowns in uniform.

 

GD, I accept your judgment that the perpetrators of these acts were unprofessional and stupid. I can even accept your implication that a number of reservists were not competent to be there. So why were they there? This whole episode demonstrates how woefully unprepared this country was to fight this war and, more importantly, maintain control of it afterward. We have heard numerous stories of the lack of proper equipment, such as armored vehicles. A woman reservist my friend works with was called up a month ago. As her going away present, her coworkers bought her a bullet proof vest because she was told she could not expect to receive one otherwise.

 

The fault is not that of the military, but the civilian leadership. Bush, Rumsfeld, et al. wanted to run this war on the cheap. They wanted to do this without a draft (which would have many Americans in a state of near rebellion), so they put an excessive burden on active and reserve personnel.

 

Regardless of whether you approve of the ostensible purpose of the war and the occupation, you must admit that it is being conducted in an incompetent fashion.

[Skeezix]

Abu Gharaib is Little League

No, the revelations of prisoner torture are a huge deal ...possibly bringing the whole Iraq war to a tipping point from which the U.S. will be unable to recover. We apologized, but the world is not going to "get over it." Dumsfeld's mismanagement has poured gasoline on the flames of terrorists' ire. When the planes flew into the towers (not that Iraq has anything to do with 9/11), we should have realized that security is an illusion. The best way to reduce terrorism is to promote positive relations with the arab and Muslim world. The G.I. Joe approach is a waste of lives, money, and precious resources.

[cracked]

I dunno about that, Skeezix. They will hate us no matter what, even if 'only' on a basis of religion. Their hate isn't rational, it won't go away. They are convinced that America is evil no matter what we do.

 

And in such a situation, what can you do? All you can do is instill enough fear in them that they won't attack you.

[Jason_Martin]

There's a lot more to these pictures than our friend on active duty appears to be seeing.

 

Initally we went into Iraq under the assumption that there were weapons of mass destruction. In order to make the world a safer place we had to find and destroy these weapons. That didn't happen. There were no weapons to speak of. As a result, the spin doctors had to come up with another reason for Iraq.

 

The back-up reason for going to Iraq was to liberate the people from Sadam. Don't get me wrong, though this wasn't the primary reason for going there, this was a bad guy who was worthy of being overthrown. However, the pictures which have surfaced paint U.S. forces as being just as bad as Sadam. Muslims in the Middle East have a hard time looking at pictures of a Muslim man in handcuffs at the feet of an American Soldier, pictures of Muslims forced into homosexual positions by U.S. forces are beyond shocking to these people... According to recent interviews with some prison detainees, many would have preferred death to what they were subject to.

 

On top of all this, the Red Cross made a report in which it insinuated that this is the mere tip of the ice berg, that indeed there have been murders within the prison walls perpetrated by American troops. This of course is under investigation.

 

In light of all this, it is important to remember that many of those in the prisons were taken there in mass raids, wherein they arrested everybody in hopes of figuring out who the bad guys were later. Due to this, it stands to reason that some of those who have been humiliated at the prison in Iraq were innocent.

 

However, it doesn't matter -- innocent or guilty -- as was stated earlier, the U.S. forces need to be doing things in a way which paints them as liberators not as sadistic occupiers. Many have argued that the fall of the Soviet Union was due to policies. In part that was true. But in part, Russians liked the idea of an America that they were seeing in movies and hearing in music. They admired the culture. This won hearts and minds in that ideological battlefield. Photos of U.S. soldiers doing things that would be considered "cruel and unusual" punishment does exactly the opposite.

 

The attitude of the United States government compounded by these types of things going on in Iraq has done little to eliminate the threat of terrorism. Instead, this type of action is exactly what men like Osama Bin Laden want to see. It gives them the fuel they need to pour on the fire of Jihad against the west.

 

Since these pictures have come to light, I suspect that many who were moderates in Iraq, who wanted Saddam to fall, have slipped away from us. Instead of creating allies among these moderates we've created enemies.

 

Ideology is far more important that millitary might and on that front, with the people in the Middle East we are losing.

 

Jason

[Alasdair]

Compared to these ARABS our methods of 'torture' can hardly be defined as that. A few naked pics? Who fucking cares. Get a clue.

 

Who's turn to be indignant? Back to the killing fields for me. Fuck the towelheads. We've apologized. Now let's get over it, and put the focus back on some of these assholes who are far worse. I don't feel bad for those Arabs in Abu Gharaib one tiny bit. They were probably setting IED's on the road trying to blow up little Johnny in his HMMV and now you're all up in arms about the same dude being stripped naked and having his genitals laughed at???

 

Could it be that part of the problem is the US is sending troops that have absolutly no education or respect for the local culture in the areas which they are being sent. Rather than sitting you guys down and explaining that describing muslims as "Fucking towlheads" is not acceptable and is racist. You clearly have no respect for the people of Iraq, the culture, or their religion, and that is very very sad. Why dont you take a little time while you are over there pick up a book and learn a little bit about the history and culture of where you are. Most likely because your superior will then call you a traitor and have shoveling shit somewhere.

[gotterdamerung]

First of all some of you need to realize one thing and one thing only. I am here and you are not. I have been immersed in this culture for quite some time and some of your answers simply annoy me with their high lofty morals and high ground garnered from somewhere so far in the rear you are 10,000 miles from where I'm at right now. Alasdair, I have an idea. Why don't you take your condenscending tone and shove it your ass. I have nothing else to say on this thread. Send me a PM if you have a problem with me. I'll be back in a week. See you then fuckers.

[Alasdair]

No I dont really have a problem with you just the war in general. I dont really have a need to PM you either. Glad your comming home, can you bring everyone else with you?

[lummox]

First of all some of you need to realize one thing and one thing only. I am here and you are not.

sometimes the trees fuk up the view of the forest for everyone. really though: the prison photos are an ongoing pr disaster.

and keep your head down.

[olyclimber]

First of all some of you need to realize one thing and one thing only. I am here and you are not. I have been immersed in this culture for quite some time and some of your answers simply annoy me with their high lofty morals and high ground garnered from somewhere so far in the rear you are 10,000 miles from where I'm at right now. Alasdair, I have an idea. Why don't you take your condenscending tone and shove it your ass. I have nothing else to say on this thread. Send me a PM if you have a problem with me. I'll be back in a week. See you then fuckers.

Unfortunately the rest of the world sees freaks like Mr. Gotterdamerung, and thinks all American's are blood-hungery, thoughless bigots like him. Fortunately there are conservatives that post on this board that do think for themselves (I'm not kissing ass here, but while I don't agree with many of his points, at least Fairweather wants to have a dialogue or debate, not some obscenity and insult laced rant). If Mr. G. is truly done with this thread, I say good riddance. And I'm glad he is coming home, because who wants a guy like that representing the US abroad.

[lummox]

First of all some of you need to realize one thing and one thing only. I am here and you are not. I have been immersed in this culture for quite some time and some of your answers simply annoy me with their high lofty morals and high ground garnered from somewhere so far in the rear you are 10,000 miles from where I'm at right now. Alasdair, I have an idea. Why don't you take your condenscending tone and shove it your ass. I have nothing else to say on this thread. Send me a PM if you have a problem with me. I'll be back in a week. See you then fuckers.

Unfortunately the rest of the world sees freaks like Mr. Gotterdamerung, and thinks all American's are blood-hungery, thoughless bigots like him. Fortunately there are conservatives that post on this board that do think for themselves (I'm not kissing ass here, but while I don't agree with many of his points, at least Fairweather wants to have a dialogue or debate, not some obscenity and insult laced rant). If Mr. G. is truly done with this thread, I say good riddance. And I'm glad he is coming home, because who wants a guy like that representing the US abroad.

um. stfu?

[olyclimber]

um. stfu?

 

The answer to your question is yes, please do. Thanks.

[willstrickland]

If you don't know him personally, don't speak to his fitness in "representing" the US. He is there for one reason: To protect the civilian leadership assets. I think he is obviously doing a superb job. After all, he is alive, his immediate co-workers are alive, and the assets he is there to protect are alive. That is the only measure of success.

[olyclimber]

If you don't know him personally, don't speak to his fitness in "representing" the US. He is there for one reason: To protect the civilian leadership assets. I think he is obviously doing a superb job. After all, he is alive, his immediate co-workers are alive, and the assets he is there to protect are alive. That is the only measure of success.

 

I don't know him personally, but only from what he has posted here. And I'm not talking about his ability to do his job, whatever that is. I have no idea what his mission is, and in fact he might be very capable in his line of work. However, the use of 'towelhead' and the hate filled spew that is contained in his posts seem to indicate a person who is a racist and a bigot. Or maybe posting here is only a game he does to entertain himself. Sometimes people who post online are competely different in person. I hope this is the case, because every serviceman and woman over there that comes in contact with Iraqis are 'representing' our country.

[Skeezix]

gotterdamerung sounds like an angry, arrogant, self-absorbed military lifer. I agree with the earlier comment --he needs to get laid.

[bDubyaH]

"an eye for an eye, leaves the whole world blind" Ghandi

[sexual_chocolate]

I don't feel bad for those Arabs in Abu Gharaib one tiny bit. They were probably setting IED's on the road trying to blow up little Johnny in his HMMV and now you're all up in arms about the same dude being stripped naked and having his genitals laughed at???

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure if this needs to be responded to, since anyone on the fence would probably not be swayed, but just in case:

 

"In Geneva, the International Committee of the Red Cross said U.S.-led coalition intelligence officers had told it that up to 90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake.

 

 

A 24-page Red Cross report also cited abuses, some "tantamount to torture," including brutality, forcing people to wear hoods, humiliation and threats of imminent execution." (Pauline Jelinek, AP writer)

 

Up to 90% innocent, undergoing systematic torture, most likely with methods approved by the same Donald Rumsfeld who stated that the Geneva Conventions only selectively apply to those who the US are holding.

This man is a menace, along with the entire neo-con administration which he is a part of.