why did they take those torture pictures?

[cracked]

why did they take those pictures?

[Martlet]

Do you just make up your information? A soldier reported the incident in January. An investigation was launched immediately, and arrests were made in March. Press releases were made throughout.

 

How do you come up with this crap: "first arrest and only now, perhaps, they are intervening at all -- and mostly out of a desire to do damage control it seems." ?

 

I realize it helps your argument if you ignore the facts and just ramble on about whatever you'd like, but try to conduct at least a minimal amount of investigation before you start crying about "hypocrisy".

[mattp]

Where do you get this attitude, Martlet? I clearly stated that I DID NOT have all the information. I'm sorry I don't keep up on the do. You must think it helps your argument to be a jerk.

[Martlet]

I get the attitude from watching moonbats post opinions on things they haven't the slightest knowledge of, when had they simply skimmed a news source or two they'd have realized everything they were about to post was garbage.

 

You must think it helps your opinion to stay uninformed.

[mattp]

The more I learn about this war, the more my moonbat opinions are confirmed. Based on what I know, even considering your stunning revelations about how miserably uninformed I am, my guess is that the facts will show that the folks higher up in the chain of command are concerned with public relations first, and doing the right thing second. This is pure speculation on my part, but I don't expect anybody in any position of power to do more throw a few scapegoats to the dogs and try to tell us how unusual this apparently NOT unusual practice is.

[Martlet]

The more I learn about this war, the more my moonbat blah blah blah how miserably uninformed I am, blah blah blah This is pure speculation on my part, blah blah blah

[lummox]

why did they take those pictures?

dude. that chip they implant in the butt of everyone in the army makes emp do wierd shit. remember timmy mcveigh? same shit. different day.

[mothboy88]

Reccomended reading if you want insight to how otherwise decent people end up doing terrible things in a time of war - "Flyboys" by James Bradley.

 

This book told the story of US POWs on the Pacific and how they were executed (and canabilized) after capture during WWII. The interesting thing about the book was how even handed the author was in discussing how war crimes occurred on both sides and describing how the power structure of the military can force people to commit "war crimes".

[Skeezix]

Hey Martlet. Everybody who disagrees with your view is uninformed. You rush to insulting language when your opponent is using civil argument. Your tone is arrogant and ultimately unconvincing.

[AlpineK]

Hey Martlet. You should come work for me for a couple days if you want to really learn what hard work is. I'm sure after a brief stint you'll be glad to go back to your cubicle.

 

As to my earlier point. Let me make it clear that I do think that those soldiers in the photos deserve some kind of punishment, however I believe that they didn't just start doing all this in a vacuum.

 

As wirlwind stated there are ways to get folks to do things that they would not otherwise do. We all like to think that we're immune to manipulation however nobody is.

 

Those soldiers are guilty of something, but I'm sure that their commanding officers bare some responsibility. I would not be supprised if some of the higher ups didn't bare the prime responsibility.

 

As to Rumpy. He stated earlier in the conflict that many of our prisoners taken in Iraq and Afganistan did not merit prisoner of war status under the Geneva convention; also he failed to inform other members of the government as to the situation. Because of his actions abuse went on for longer than it should and quite likely his public attitude gave some people the idea that this kind of behavior was acceptable.

 

Even if nothing can be dirrectly pinned on Rumpy I still feel it's his responsibility to resign. All this happened on his watch, and our government now desperately needs to do something major to show the Arab world that we really take this matter very seriously.

 

I hope he does the right thing.

[sexual_chocolate]

Like saying schizophrenia is caused by bad parenting.

 

Actually, while not completely supporting the notion that schizophrenia is caused by bad parenting, it is interesting what a psychiatrist related to me not long ago: in a recent study, of those experiencing schizophrenic symptoms to a degree which required hospitalization, 50% responded positively to family counseling alone, allowing them to return to "normal" functional levels.

 

I just really felt that this point needed to be clarified before any confusion arose. I really felt this to be important.

[Lars]

[icegirl]

50% responded positively to family counseling alone

with no medication? really? my understanding of this disease is rather different... I was under the impression it is caused by a chemical imbalance, and family counciling is effective in combination with medication. No? I would love to see your sources, really (not just trying to be a PITA, actually quite interested)

 

AK, it is always easy to assume that people have not experienced "hard work" but never be too sure. Be careful what you "assume". Don't be so bold as to think that yours is the only "hard work" out there.

 

blah blah blah....

 

Insulting language... geez boys, IMO this is rather tame for spray, don't get panties in too much of a bunch or we'll have to get some moderation involved.

 

"Flyboys" thanks to a friend I found myself in B&N reading the first several chapters (hey, I'm not the only one) so far, quite good, unfortunately I have to get rid of some books before I buy more (shelf space issues) so if anyone wants some books....

[Fairweather]

Reccomended reading if you want insight to how otherwise decent people end up doing terrible things in a time of war - "Flyboys" by James Bradley.

 

This book told the story of US POWs on the Pacific and how they were executed (and canabilized) after capture during WWII. The interesting thing about the book was how even handed the author was in discussing how war crimes occurred on both sides and describing how the power structure of the military can force people to commit "war crimes".

 

 

The best book I've read all year! A very even handed book. I learned about some of the brutality committed by 'our side' during the war in the Pacific too. The book describes in first person detail the horrible events of the night of March 9, 1945-when we firebombed Tokyo, killing more civilians than the two atomic attacks combined. It describes the fate of captured American flyers; a fate so horrible that the war crimes trial transcripts were kept secret until the 1990's so as not to devestate the mothers of the deceased.

 

62,000 Japanese POW's would die after the war's end....in Soviet prison camps.

 

I would highly recomend this book to anyone, on any side of the political spectrum.

[RescueMan]

What we do know is that many of the pictures were taken by one of the female grunts who was having "fun" at the expense of these prisoners, most of whom (60%) by the army's estimate are innocent of anything.

 

One of the men featured in the pictures which have been made public has talked to the LA Times and this was a man who had welcomed the arrival of US troops but was arrested and held for many months for being a passenger in a vehicle with no registration papers aboard.

 

The army's internal investigation called this mistreatment systemic. That puts the lie to the PR nonsense of this being an "aberration". The International Committee for the Red Cross and Amnesty International have also arrived at the same conclusion.

 

And the victim who told his story said there was never any interrogation, so the PR nonsense about this being an attempt to "soften them up for interrogation" is also a cover story (though I don't doubt that "civilian" contractors encouraged this to happen).

 

Rumsfeld, himself, created the atmosphere for these kinds of abuses to become inevitable when he said last year that the Geneva Conventions didn't apply to "enemy combatants" being held in Guantanamo.

 

The greater irony in all this is our claim to be "liberating" the Iraqi people from the kind of torture and abuse committed under the Hussein regime in the very same prison where these abuses are continuing.

 

Our reasons for invading Iraq where lies from the start. And our behavior there merely highlights how little we really care about democracy or liberation. The Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld team has made millions of new enemies for the US and has thus made us far less safe than we were before 9/11.

 

The only interesting question is: Why are Americans so (you choose) blind, ignorant, stupid, arrogant that they can't see what's really going on here?

 

- Robert

[Martlet]

Reccomended reading if you want insight to how otherwise decent people end up doing terrible things in a time of war - "Flyboys" by James Bradley.

 

This book told the story of US POWs on the Pacific and how they were executed (and canabilized) after capture during WWII. The interesting thing about the book was how even handed the author was in discussing how war crimes occurred on both sides and describing how the power structure of the military can force people to commit "war crimes".

 

Excellent Book!

 

Hey Martlet. Everybody who disagrees with your view is uninformed. You rush to insulting language when your opponent is using civil argument. Your tone is arrogant and ultimately unconvincing.

 

Not everyone. Just morons that repeatedly post information or insinuate facts that are blatantly false. I don't expect my tone to be convincing. I expect it to be condescending. Not unlike speaking to a child. My FACTS are convincing, though. That should be enough. Probably not for you, though, since moonbats tend to ignore anything that doesn't fit into their Bush=Hitler mentality.

 

Hey Martlet. You should come work for me for a couple days if you want to really learn what hard work is. I'm sure after a brief stint you'll be glad to go back to your cubicle.

 

As to my earlier point. Let me make it clear that I do think that those soldiers in the photos deserve some kind of punishment, however I believe that they didn't just start doing all this in a vacuum.

 

As wirlwind stated there are ways to get folks to do things that they would not otherwise do. We all like to think that we're immune to manipulation however nobody is.

 

Those soldiers are guilty of something, but I'm sure that their commanding officers bare some responsibility. I would not be supprised if some of the higher ups didn't bare the prime responsibility.

 

As to Rumpy. He stated earlier in the conflict that many of our prisoners taken in Iraq and Afganistan did not merit prisoner of war status under the Geneva convention; also he failed to inform other members of the government as to the situation. Because of his actions abuse went on for longer than it should and quite likely his public attitude gave some people the idea that this kind of behavior was acceptable.

 

Even if nothing can be dirrectly pinned on Rumpy I still feel it's his responsibility to resign. All this happened on his watch, and our government now desperately needs to do something major to show the Arab world that we really take this matter very seriously.

 

I hope he does the right thing.

 

I agree COs bear responsibility. Even if they didn't know what was taking place they bear the responsibility. It's their job to know. As unfair as it sounds, that's how it works.

 

It's asinine for Rummy to step down. Everyone except the blind hatred moonbats realize that. He DID take the appropriate action. If you don't think launching multiple investigations within 3 days of the whistleblower coming forward and making arrests by mid march is enough you're crazy. What the hell do you mean by "he allowed these events to continue longer than they should have" because he didn't tell the public? These events ended immediately. That isn't quick enough for you? Because of that you want him out in the middle of a conflict?

 

Moonbat logic. It's better than The Simpsons.

 

 

The only interesting question is: Why are Americans so (you choose) blind, ignorant, stupid, arrogant that they can't see what's really going on here?

 

- Robert

 

So tell us, oh wise one, what's really going on here?

[gotterdamerung]

There are so many things going on with this issue it can make your head hurt. The bottom line is that in any penal system one of the most basic rules is that you do not carry a camera in a prison. Documenting anything going on inside a prison, let alone a military prison detaining suspected insurgents, criminals, and POW's is flat out stupid. Those soldiers were dead wrong, got caught and will be punished accordingly.

 

The moral high ground has been breached and we are now looking at a greater level of violence here. No one is happy about these abuses, mainly because it makes the work here so much more difficult. We now have to work quickly to stop any abuses, and get back on track. The Department of Defense has done a great job, and while the Abu Gharaib situation is damaging we have to move past it and focus our attention on what we can do to bring the Iraq conflict to a honorable conclusion. It is not going to be a quick fix, and I would plan on seeing troops in Iraq for 2-3 years and US presence for a long time after.

[lI1|1!]

The intelligence guys took their pictures, then if any of 'em started getting cold feet about torturing, the intelligence guys could just tell them they couldn't back out now. They were in for life. Classic blackmail technique.

 

that's a bunch of classic conspiracy theory chucK. think law of parsimony: the simplest explanation is usually the best one. those smiling kids from poor rural nowhere took those pictures as souvenirs and weren't worldly enough to realize how much trouble they could get in. i did a stint in the army a while back and i got some news for ya: THERE ARE A LOT OF STUPID, IGNORANT PEOPLE IN THERE! i mean, what do you expect, the pay is lousy and the living conditions are awfull. if you want some professionalism you might need to pay for it eh?

 

i think bush missed an opportunity to make a connection with the iraqi people here. he could have said "hey americans aren't perfect either. every society has it's dregs; you have your muslim extremists and we have our sadistic dumbfucks." instead he said he something about "this isn't the america he knows, the prison guards aren't representative of the american people. we're really good. trust me." his classic american chauvanism is what will doom the occupation of iraq from start to finnish.

[whirlwind]

ok shit pot:

It is well established that people diagnosed with schizophrenia are affected by tensions at home;the relatives may be able to change things for the benefit of the person with schizophrenia.

(taken from ur link)

and clearly states that relitives and parents can have influence on the person with schizophrenia both positive and negitive. i never said they could cause it, but mearly have an influence.

 

as for the other coment u may have been pointing out that what was being said wasn't necessarily true, i was simply stated that peopel are easaily influenced into things

i didn't side with kurt or you, i was mearly making a coment about people ingeneral

so next time u get all definsive there buttpirate maybe u should reread and make sure your heads not in your ass again

[olyclimber]

The bottom line is that in any penal system one of the most basic rules is that you do not carry a camera in a prison. Documenting anything going on inside a prison, let alone a military prison detaining suspected insurgents, criminals, and POW's is flat out stupid.

 

This is an interesting take on the situation, if I understand you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that the bottom line with what was/is wrong with the situation is not that torture actually took place, but that they documented it with photos?

[cracked]

Whatever, man, just keep taking those phycoligy classes.

 

I suspect that parents and 'relitives' have an influence on their loved ones, schizophrenic or not. So what you're really saying is "people influence other people". Thanks for the heads-up, Sherlock, I'll try to remember that.

 

take a few phycoligy classes if ur smart u'll start to see patters in which people follow and how one person can influence a group, for instance in cults

First off, I'm not sure whether you meant that if I were smart, I'd take 'phycoligy' (not offered at UW, I checked) classes, or if I were smart, I would draw some conclusion from said classes. Either way, your tenuous argument is based on the idea of peoples' actions being manipulated by external influences. As such, it is, directly or indirectly, in opposition to my suggestion that the soldiers in question could have been acting sans influence. Consequently, you were arguing against me, not "mearly making a coment about people ingeneral", whatever you mean by that.

 

As your posts are nearly unreadable, demonstrated by the above ambiguity, please inform me if I somehow misinterpreted one of 'ur' cryptic phrases and my opinion require elucidation.

 

And you say that MY head is up my ass?

[Stonehead]

Edited May 9, 2004 by Stonehead

[whirlwind]

ok so writing isn't my strong point obiously, u can keep making fun of it if it makes u feel good about urself,

i don't however feel like getting into a circural argument with you, who said what blablabla, the fact of the matter is ur an ass and u try to make urself feel good by putting others down, i might not be able to write as pretty of as comprehensable as your "smart ass" but this dosn't make me a moron and it also dosn't make u smart

[cracked]

Quit putting me down and I'll quit putting you down.

[Stonehead]

 

"A year ago I did give the speech from the carrier saying we had achieved an important objective, accomplished a mission, which was the removal of Saddam Hussein. And as a result, there are no longer torture chambers or rape rooms or mass graves in Iraq."

- George W. Bush