Why don't climbers developing new routes post here

[Thinker]

Richard Noggin raised a good question in this thread, something we talked about at Pub Club last week too.

 

Does all the spray here at cc.com turn off climbers developing new rock routes? Are we missing out on opportunities to know about these routes because these folks get hammered every time they post?

 

Any constructive ideas about how to warm them back up to this site?

 

I sure hate to see the majority of PacNW climbers lose out on this info based on the actions of a few loud mouths.

[Dave_Schuldt]

mattp post here. Dave Whitelaw used to. In general I agree wiht Thinker.

[Redoubt]

Does all the spray here at cc.com turn off climbers developing new rock routes?

 

Are you serious? Of course it does. It's not just new rock routes. New routes of all types, notable TRs, and certainly technical information and advice. This site can't be all things to all climbers, and it has chosen to cater to a very low common denominator. That's going to keep a lot of people away.

 

I sure hate to see the majority of PacNW climbers lose out on this info based on the actions of a few loud mouths.

What makes you think that the "majority" of PNW climbers read this site?

[willstrickland]

Alright, I wasn't going to respond to this but whateva....here it is:

 

What makes you think that developers would post anything here without the spray? I've put up new trad routes in Oregon, and I post here often. I didn't post them on here because either I wanted to keep the other potential routes on those crags for myself (yeah, I'm selfish...and you would be too if you found a stash) or I didn't think them worth reporting. You want to find new areas, get a topo map, talk to people, and then go spend the time fighting alder and devils club to find them. You want to capitalize on my efforts and snag the plums? Well, you can fuck off.

 

Not to say I won't share beta. I posted a pic of an area on here a month or two ago with the offer to give detailed instructions to anyone who wanted to go put up lines there. Given, it was in Utah, but nevertheless, this place would have the potential for 100-200 Indian Creek style crack lines.

 

In my experience, developers...well let me qualify that, TRAD developers, often don't report the ascents to anyone. They may tell their bros about it, or a few others, but by and large they don't want a horde of people to descend on the area.

 

Just look at what happens when someone on here posts a TR of an mid-level alpine climb that's currently in. A shit-load of people converge on that route within the week. NF of Hood is one example.

 

You think the spray keeps content away? I think the opposite. Spray keeps the site vital, keeps people visiting daily or weekly rather than quarterly or biannually. Without that traffic people would be less likely to post gear for sale, people would be less likely to ask for beta...it would be an overall collapse and then nobody would post the good shizzle because they know that only six people are going to be reading it.

 

Ever notice that there is a category for spray? You don't like it, it makes your pussy hurt or something, then don't go into the spray category. If spray is leaking into other areas, there are 16 moderators which should be plenty to keep spray where it belongs.

 

Quit cryin and go climb something.

[Thinker]

OK. There's one data point.

[Alpinfox]

 

Potentially new ice route reported on cc.com

[Billygoat]

Redoubt my ass. Catering to a "very low common denominator"

 

I would just hate to see a bunch of ghey climbing tarts acting all poncey and posey, creaming up the joint with their all important "micro beta" panderings you meal mouthed sod

[Billygoat]

BTW Thinker, there are a lot of exploratory climbers posting here. They just aren't spraying about it.

[plexus]

There is a lot of new route talk on this site. Just because a number of people spraying around, "This is the next classic", doesn't mean ppl aren't posting. I can think of at least two dozen new routes (rock, alpine & ice) that I remember being mentioned on this site in the past two years, everything from the kick-ass Pickets traverse, to new wall at Exit 38, to Dru's line on border peak.

 

Hell I've even mentioned a small little line in the southern Twin Sisters Range. Just because it's not every day (it's January for chirssakes) that new beta gets out there, don't mean there aren't any explorers out on these sites.

 

Will also has a point, a number of people don't advertise their plum lines just because of the crowds that will then congragate to them. You always see TRs about Triple Couloirs, Chair Peak, Prussik Peak, Cutthroat Peak (all worthy of trips). But can you tell me the last time you saw anybody talk about Corteo, Magic, Torment or Bonanza? And I know that at least on three of them from first hand, there are some fun climbs.

[texplorer]

Great points everyone. I, like Senor Strickland, have posted pics of new routes but haven't said where they were or much else. Mainly I don't think many people care on here about going to obscure areas for a nice crack. (If they ask I usually tell them though) You know that you can climb alot of quality stuff already before you have to start putting up new routes. For those of us that like putting up new routes there is the thrill of untouched gems waiting to be plucked from obscurity.

 

I think some developers have stopped posting here. If your going to put up new routes then you should have a tough skin, thought alot about it, and be able to defend yourself against naysayers. The truth is that most of the people sprayed are done so for bolting in areas that have already been established or where the ethic is sparse bolting. I don't need to start another bolt debate. I have no problem with sport lines but people need to think about what they are doing. When people step over the line they should be criticized. If they have valid points we should stick up for them but if the general consensus is that they are in the wrong then they should understand that too.

[richard_noggin]

Remember The endless spray dis'n Condorphamine addiction by climbers that had not even done the route let alone even seen it! Check the FA's

What.... you think The top climbers and route setters in Washington don't check this site to see what $#!T is being said about them

Don't get me wrong SPRAY Is FUN, hey this DICK HEAD talk'n.

But when you talk $#!T about climbers giving their hard earned money and time putting up routes, don't expect any beta.

Talk $#!T about each other, when it comes to routes it's all climbing and it's all good , some are just better or more natural than others , what cranks your chain might not crank mine.

[scott_harpell]

I remember lots of FA's published. I dont know what you kids are whining about. Just cause FreddyB and the like dont post their new routes... big deal. I defy y'all to just climb all the new routes that were posted last year.

[AlpineK]

Condorphamine is a good example of something that deserves to be made fun of. The route is fun, and I don't have an issue with the rap bolts, but I do have an issue with the huge number of bolts placed on the route. When it becomes a game to see how many bolts on a pitch you can avoid that's when things have gone too far.

 

Guys like Pope and Dwayner have created a hostile environment for people who use bolts on their routes, however I think guys like Leyland deserve to be made fun of for overbolting.

 

I worry that some of the routesetters are so thin skinned that they can't take a bad review of their route, yet at the same time I think some of the anti bolt diatribe is driving away route reports.

[chucK]

I don't think "thin skinned" is the right word here. It's one thing to listen to a polite critique. It's another to read to variations on a theme of your route sucks 20 times over two days. It would probably be a lot more friendly in here if people could resist the urge to add their own unique way to say "that route is an overbolted piece of hot stinky shit" to the pile of ten already there. Critiquing peoples routes is probably actually the perfect place to use the dreaded "me too" or icon. "Me too" lets you add your vote, cause sometimes you just gotta be heard, but refrains from spraying in the route-builder's face.

[scott_harpell]

"that route is an overbolted piece of hot stinky shit"

 

Back in my day, we called that constructive criticism.

[richard_noggin]

Oh yes.... the way cool, know it all alpinek , you are a good example.

Because of the trash you have talked in the past there are a few climbers asking who's the wanker behind the avatar.

Personaly I get a kick out of cyber tweakers talk'n out their ass .....What really blows me away is when I meet one

Let me see... who does the most for his fellow climbers alpinek or Lealand

DICK

[pope]

Let me see... who does the most for his fellow climbers alpinek or Lealand

DICK

 

Just what does Lealand do for me? Educate me please.

[AlpineK]

I fail to see your point Dick; especially since we've never met. As far as I can tell, since you've never shown up to any real life event and identified yourself, you are the real cyber tweaker. Furthermore I have never gone on anything resembling an antibolt diatribe. I prefer trad, but I have no problem with rap bolted routes.

 

If you really want to have a debate Dick then you shouldn't attack folks the way you complain others do.

 

While I've never put up a route I have climbed for long enough to recognize well set routes from poorly set routes. Since I brought up Lealand and Condorphamine I may as well continue. I think it's great that folks like Lealand have the energy to set routes, however the act of route setting opens them up to being critiqued. Before I climbed it I heard from everyone I talked to that Condorphamine had way too many bolts, and when I climbed it I felt the same way. Lealand deserves some negative feed back on that route in my opinion.

 

I've never done it, but I hear that Lealand's route on Garfield is not overbolted. I'm interested in checking it out. I'm already impressed with the drive Lealand has to set a 20? pitch route.

 

 

So Dick why don't you come out from behind your computer sometime and meet some of us.

[catbirdseat]

The fact that AlpineK and I have met doesn't prevent him from slamming me on occassion, although usually when he does, I deserve it.

[willstrickland]

Service as a concept is relative to the receipient of said service. What may be a service to you could be a trivial annoyance to someone else. Like when the hotel maid comes knocking at 10:00am, for example.

 

Hi Fern

Edited January 20, 2004 by willstrickland

[fern]

this discussion was going pretty good. let's not lose it

to spray and name-calling for another few pages at least.

 

Thinker asked for thoughts on how to make this place more

welcoming to people who might like to advertise their new

routes. Any suggestions?

 

For example Supertopo.com has a completely separate forum for

discussion about routes, linked to a route database. Would an

idea like that have value here? More clearly separate the

spray and banter component of this site from the nuts and bolts

route info?

[forrest_m]

For example Supertopo.com has a completely separate forum for

discussion about routes, linked to a route database. Would an

idea like that have value here?

 

what if there was a "new route log" forum that did not allow replies, i.e. one could post info about a new route, but in order to comment about it, other people would have to start a new thread in the climbers board (or spray). that way people who did not want commentary could still post for the "historical record" and would be somewhat insulated from people's opinions. this would also be easier for the guidebook authors to peruse new routes without wading through thousands of posts. (it seems a bit silly to be so sensitive, but I'd rather have the info than try to change someone's personality...)

 

in general, i think people are apt to report alpine routes but not crag routes on CC. as others have mentioned, i think this has a lot to do with preserving future potential - not many people do multiple FAs on the same peak, but plenty of folks dream of putting up a whole crag full of routes.

[Alex]

Some of you have mentioned that there is some new route information put up here on Cascacdeclimbers.com, and I am not denying that. I am also not denying that alot of you guys get out and do some fun stuff, sometimes even a new route.

 

But from my first hand experience, I would guess that 90%-95% of the new route activity in Washington/Oregon/BC does not get reported here. I think this is for a variety of reasons, not the least of which are some of those already mentioned: the sometimes hostile environment, people being very critical with little or no information. Anonymity can result in a much less civil forum than what you might find at the base of a crag or in the gym.

 

I think new routes are not reported here mostly because the people putting up routes are not aware of this site, choose not to place such information on the internet in general, and/or share them first and foremost with friends by word of mouth. The backcountry is getting crowded, and its nice to have your own spot (like Pearly Gates was during its development). Alot of the people putting up the routes are doing it because they love climbing and developing an area, not to be recognized or lauded.

 

Finally, this site is very unstructured and very actice, and route information is soon buried if its not tracked like Peter_Puget tries to do in the Rock Climbing forum. I think alot of people realize that very quickly and choose to put that type of information in some other form, like print, personal web sites, and so on.

[ken4ord]

For example Supertopo.com has a completely separate forum for

discussion about routes, linked to a route database. Would an

idea like that have value here?

 

what if there was a "new route log" forum that did not allow replies, i.e. one could post info about a new route, but in order to comment about it, other people would have to start a new thread in the climbers board (or spray). that way people who did not want commentary could still post for the "historical record" and would be somewhat insulated from people's opinions. this would also be easier for the guidebook authors to peruse new routes without wading through thousands of posts. (it seems a bit silly to be so sensitive, but I'd rather have the info than try to change someone's personality...)

 

in general, i think people are apt to report alpine routes but not crag routes on CC. as others have mentioned, i think this has a lot to do with preserving future potential - not many people do multiple FAs on the same peak, but plenty of folks dream of putting up a whole crag full of routes.

 

I'll second the new route log forum idea.

[aint_this_great]

It's been awhile since I read much on here, but isn't there already a separate "trip reports" section? I would think a trip report about setting a new route could go there just fine, and everyone could go search for it, and it wouldn't get buried in all the spray. Which I do agree is frustrating, but I also agree that the spray is what keeps a lot of people reading. Me, for example.