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Paco

What's up with this shite?

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On the approach to the Tooth this weekend I noticed a fixed line and at least one bolted route. This was located above the first talus field near the start of the second one. The route had maybe four bolts with big chain anchors. The route was maybe 30ft and 6ft overhanging. It looks like someone is trying to develop this area. WTF? How long has this been going on? This seems like a shitty place to bolt and develop for sport climbing.

 

My $0.02 - keep the bolts at Exit 32 and 38. Not every piece of overhanging choss needs to be developed and bolted.

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You were probably looking at the Rap Wall, which is -- as Erik said -- for mixed climbing. This wall reportedly sports the most difficult new wave mixed route in the state. Guru is an M9 which, as far as I know, has only been completed by one individual.

 

Jason

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The route is only about 35 feet in length. Isn't that more of a highball problem. Seems like a stretch to call it a route.

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ehmmic said:

The route is only about 35 feet in length. Isn't that more of a highball problem. Seems like a stretch to call it a route.

 

i would like to see you boulder it. or better yet solo the m9 with your tools and poons?!!

 

changes things eh?

 

 

 

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erik said:

ehmmic said:

The route is only about 35 feet in length. Isn't that more of a highball problem. Seems like a stretch to call it a route.

 

i would like to see you boulder it. or better yet solo the m9 with your tools and poons?!!

 

changes things eh?

 

 

 

I agree, if you'd seen it (or watched someone climb it), it is as burly a 'route' as any sport route around these parts...

 

The rap wall is pretty neat... and if nothing else, good for a pump.

 

The M7s (next to Guru)

source_lake_M7s.jpg

 

CascadeClimber on the right hand one:

M7_loren_lead.jpg

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I guess if you're into the whole mixed climbing scene than routes like this feed that need.

 

The route Paco and I looked at this past weekend is shorter than the one pictured and is further up the gully. It is through a roof and has a swaged cable fixed in the middle of the roof (looked like it could have been a funkness used as a quickdraw). The chains are about 10 feet above the roof under some tree limbs.

 

Erik - yes, I doubt I could climb this or any other ice climb on lead since I have exactly 0 ice pitches under my belt. But that wasn't what we were discussing. Personally as I explore ice climbing in the next couple seasons I doubt mixed climbing will be my focus. I think it's a bit contrived and silly to work gymnastic rock/ice problems with so many sharp points attached to my hands and feet. But it is where the big names are pushing the sport so I don't doubt the masses will follow... rolleyes.gif

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Obviously, 666, we do not need ANY routes anywhere but it is a cost/benefit kind of analysis that matters here. I take it from your comment that you think the equation tips way toward the negative.

 

Paco thought this would be a poor choice of a location for a new sport climbing crag and I'm curious: in thinking about whether or not this particular masterpiece is worthy or not, does it change your thinking at all if you know that it may have been intended for winter mixed climbing as opposed to summer sport climbing?

 

I haven't seen the crag in question, and all I know about it is what appears in this thread, but I'd be inclined toward being critical if it was just another summer sport-crag whereas I am thinking it may be kind of cool if it is some mixed climbing "testpiece." And I say this even though it represents a style of climbing I am not all that interested in and I still think it is kind of an odd contrivance. At the risk of suffering the wrath of the M-9 contingent, I'll say that in my mind it is kind of silly to bolt crags so that somebody can go rock climbing with crampons on ... but that's just me. At least it sounds as if this thing was not imposed on some long-standing classic of the Snoqualmie Alps.

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mattp said:

Obviously, 666, we do not need ANY routes anywhere but it is a cost/benefit kind of analysis that matters here. I take it from your comment that you think the equation tips way toward the negative.

 

Paco thought this would be a poor choice of a location for a new sport climbing crag and I'm curious: in thinking about whether or not this particular masterpiece is worthy or not, does it change your thinking at all if you know that it may have been intended for winter mixed climbing as opposed to summer sport climbing?

 

I haven't seen the crag in question, and all I know about it is what appears in this thread, but I'd be inclined toward being critical if it was just another summer sport-crag whereas I am thinking it may be kind of cool if it is some mixed climbing "testpiece." And I say this even though it represents a style of climbing I am not all that interested in and I still think it is kind of an odd contrivance. At the risk of suffering the wrath of the M-9 contingent, I'll say that in my mind it is kind of silly to bolt crags so that somebody can go rock climbing with crampons on ... but that's just me. At least it sounds as if this thing was not imposed on some long-standing classic of the Snoqualmie Alps.

 

Mr. Perkins, I can definitely agree with most of your comments. Especially the classic of the Snoqualmie Alps remark hahaha.gif

 

My one liner was intended to spark thought about the whole concept. Let's keep it going.

 

Yours truly,

Senior Satan

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ehmmic said:

a swaged cable fixed in the middle of the roof (looked like it could have been a funkness used as a quickdraw).

like this?:

903301.jpg

thatza 'power draw'. prolly a lot around these days after the cave rock de-bolting. rolleyes.gif

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An interesting article/opinion on "Mixed" climbing...

 

Mixed Climbing/Mixed Blessing

By Carlos Buhler

Everest Magazine

With the growing popularity of the mixed climbing craze, there is one depressing reality: the condition of my ice tools! All this banging around on solid rock is wrecking havoc on my gear.

 

It's gotten to the point where the blunt picks of my ice tools no longer catch on the fabric of my car when I toss the rucksack into the back seat on the way to to a climb! I use to have to remove the ice tools and crampons from my pack before traveling. But not any longer. I just throw the pack into the car now and forget about it. When was the last time I tore a pair of gaitors with a sharp crampon point? I can't remember. What's left of my front points are so dull and stubby that even fine gore tex gaitors are safe.

 

Now the bad news is suspicious. I find I am spending a ton of time and money replacing the blades of my ice tools and front points of my crampons with new parts. This has got to be a climbing craze set in motion by the Outdoor Industries in a plot to effect new ice climbing tool sales. The other day I was at a popular "mixed" crag in the Canadian Rockies only to find that what I once thought was ice climbing was now rock climbing with crampons and ice axes. I looked up at bolted sport routes on an overhanging wall above me and laughed at the ridiculous nature of the climbing. There wasn't a trace of ice on the first 4 bolts worth of climbing. As a matter of fact, by the time you could get a tool placement into ice, the climb was basically over! I mean, what is this? Holds I couldn't see were supposed to be hooked two feet over my head until the pick jammed onto some minute ripple in the rock. Then, scrapping my front points on tiny ledges, I hauled my sorry butt up the face and tried to lock off on one arm long enough to lunge for another blind mystery hold before the axe holding all my weight popped off and knocked all my front teeth out. "Yea, this is really fun!!" I tried to tell myself. But my logical side wasn't convinced. There's nothing as scary as pulling up with all your strength on your ice tool until seeing the hammer of your ice axe at about forehead height and discovering that the pick has caught miraculously on an imperceptable bump on a sloping ledge.

 

 

Interesting view.... bigdrink.gif

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so paco- do we need your official permision to bolt? is it your own little private pissing territory?

btw. people who put down mixed climbing are lame. thanks to climbs like Heffner climbers can dash up A-Strain in 12 hours rt (it's M5) or do climbs like Howse of cards. calgary/canmore scene is awsome, people climb hard, they put up new routes and you guys suck ass moon.gif

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mattp said:

 

 

I haven't seen the crag in question, and all I know about it is what appears in this thread, but I'd be inclined toward being critical if it was just another summer sport-crag whereas I am thinking it may be kind of cool if it is some mixed climbing "testpiece." And I say this even though it represents a style of climbing I am not all that interested in and I still think it is kind of an odd contrivance. At the risk of suffering the wrath of the M-9 contingent, I'll say that in my mind it is kind of silly to bolt crags so that somebody can go rock climbing with crampons on ... but that's just me. At least it sounds as if this thing was not imposed on some long-standing classic of the Snoqualmie Alps.

mattp- as you might have noticed standards in rock climbing are rising and the biggets jump took place with development of sport climbing. it's the same with mixed. you need guns and technique so you can be fast and strong in the mountains.

one more point- i think this is why there are no hard climbs in the Cascades by todays standards

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I don't get how you can say its ok if its a mixed climb, but not a sport route. There still bolts,they have not changed. If its good for one it has to be good for all. So make up your mind.

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Bolts are just a safe way of pushing the envelope. People are clambering all over these areas. If you want a truly "untouched" experience go to where the masses don't.

tongue.gif

 

Hey Glassgow, time to put up or shut up! Start pushing the grade around here. You keep whining about this place yet here you are. Give me a couple years and I'll join you. The North Cascades rock and there is a lot of untouched potential here...

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mattp- as you might have noticed standards in rock climbing are rising and the biggets jump took place with development of sport climbing. it's the same with mixed. you need guns and technique so you can be fast and strong in the mountains.

 

First I am not mattp. But this is spray internet right?

 

Well the rock climbing "standards" have been on the rise for the last century or more. This also includes ice.

 

Also there is this guy that is credited but not admitting to the advance of what a real historian might call modern mixed climbing in America. Although I am sure he has placed a number of bolts in his life I don't believe he is quite so adventurous as to bolt 30 foot faces on a toprope. Given that Jeff Lowe is from Colorado where the mountains and terrain are very different from the Cascades one can easily dispute the reasoning. Also note that the ice in the cascades is not quite as common near the road or seemingly as abundant as many other areas of Colorado or even Canada's grand Rockies.

 

After establishing a few of those points I can also notice that there are rock climbers out there today and this week climbing at very high levels here in Washington. Maybe they are not marking 5.15a but it is not exactly sunny here in Washington for 250 to 300 days a year as it is in many other parts of our country. This might be factor as well..

 

To put it all together I think that portions of glassgowkiss' arguments are debatable and that he is overlooking some items.

 

I am not the bolt police and I personally don't care about this area and the bolts.

 

There is a hint of elitism in the air that if you can climb rock well that gives you a license to put anchors anywhere. Indeed there is wisdom sometimes behind the intent and insertion of anchors in the hills that are usefull and worthy. But while I read the comments here it only hints that good climbers should or are allowed to be placing these anchors. There is obviously no access issue here and as mattp has pointed out, we are definitely not disturbing much in the way of the aesthetic rolleyes.gif Snoqualmie Alps.

 

Satan has spoken the_finger.gif

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Since my earlier post was deleted I wonder why ehmmic's saying the same thing, wasn't?

 

But it's funny that Washington's "hardest mixed climb" is a bolted boulder problem. Where was Polish Bob anyway? Too busy sending in Canmore to put his money where his mouth is? glassgowkiss are you gonna send M12 on gear this winter in the mighty Snoqualmie Himalayan 800m savage arena?

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I would love to see somebody boulder a 30ft mixed line. I think it is a bit lame to say that it is a boulder problem, because nobody wants to fall wearing pons with tools

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Paul_detrick said:

I don't get how you can say its ok if its a mixed climb, but not a sport route. There still bolts,they have not changed. If its good for one it has to be good for all. So make up your mind.

 

MattP is good at making his own points, but in this case, since you may have misunderstood his message, I think he's suggesting that because these new mixed climbs are kind of new/novel/rare, somehow having a few of them around is less obnoxious than the dime-a-dozen sport routes along I-90.

 

Difficult, long mixed climbs have been put up in the Rockies and often go unrepeated for decades. Some haven't been repeated. And they weren't rap bolted. Part of difficult mixed climbing has always been dealing with the diffulties in arranging protection. You think that you can somehow throw that aspect of mixed climbing out and do this sport/ice monkey busines....and this is going to prepare you for difficult mixed climbing in the high mountains, where there is no string of bolts? You guys who claim to be interested in pushing the standards of ice/mixed climbing are just taking the lazy way out. Instead of climbing big, bold and truly challenging mixed routes, you're piddling around on some safe-n-sane, road-side pitch that had been arrogantly bolted, under the assumption that those who pursue winter sports at the pass will benefit from these permanent modifications.

 

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Billygoat said:

Bolts are just a safe way of pushing the envelope. People are clambering all over these areas. If you want a truly "untouched" experience go to where the masses don't.

tongue.gif

 

Hey Glassgow, time to put up or shut up! Start pushing the grade around here. You keep whining about this place yet here you are. Give me a couple years and I'll join you. The North Cascades rock and there is a lot of untouched potential here...

hey goatblower- first of all i don't diss people when they put up new routes - unlike a lot of this crowd still debating on bolting issues. second, i just stated a simple fact that there aren't any hard routes by todays standards- rock or mixed, period. if you'd open last couple of issues of Alpinist you would see at what level people climb.

last winter i did put up a new route- i didn't see you line up (or anybody else as the matter of fact) to repeat it. as the matter of fact a day before another party bailed from under the same face as i recall (quite competent climbers), so maybe you should shut up. moon.gif

plus i just spent 2 months in europe climbing (where btw i managed to send 7c+, how many have you done sucker??), so now i have to make some doe. werd

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