Good Government

[Jim]

Greg_W said:

Jim said:

So Greg - what's the scoop? Why do you feel the need to carry the heat or keep it under the bed? Seattle is a pretty tame place. Maybe if you were a shop keeper in SE Washington DC (lived in DC a while) I could see it. But in Seattle, Bellevue, Redmond? Strikes me as surburban paranoia. So what's up bro?

 

Seattle tame? Tell that to the girl who was attacked and the guy who tried to help her (who was killed) during the Mardi Gras riots. What about WTO? Do you think that crime is no problem here? Give me a fucking break. What about the crackdown on all the hip hop clubs in Pioneer Square?

 

Call me what you want, I don't care. Just don't infringe on my rights.

 

Enjoy learning to love Big Brother, cause that's what you are going to get when you ask for what you're asking for.

 

Yes Seattle is very tame. I have no problem going anywhere in town at anytime. Now I wouldn't say that about DC or NYC. But just going about your business, not looking for trouble - why do you feel the need for a gun. Are you so scared of things out there? I'm not telling what to do - it just seems so extreme. Did you get mugged or something at one time?

[Dru]

In Canada

 

1) Handguns aren't banned

2) Rifles aren't banned.

 

Registration of rifles and handguns was only made mandatory two years ago. Yes, it did cost a billion dollars to implement. I am not in favour of that Who ever said bureaucracy was cheap?

 

You have had to take a gun owner education course, and obtain a Firearms Acquisition Certificate, in order to have to purchase a weapon, for quite some time now. I got mine!

 

I am all in favour of making weapons legal, but expensive and difficult to obtain. Then only those who really need em will own em. Just like gas guzzling UAV's (urban assault vehicles like Ford Expedition and H2).

[j_b]

Greg_W said: being attacked by black kids on the streets of Seattle (plenty of those around),

 

then it should not be too difficult to provide statistics to illustrate your point as well as relate it unfavorably to the risk involved in other activities you engage in (such as trad climbing or mountaineering. are you sure you don't want to grid bolt everything in sight? it'd be much safer). i'll take your failure to present evidence as meaning that you are spewing non-sense.

[Sphinx]

incubus said:

One of the most ancient debates among conservatives is whether liberals hate the Constitution, or simply don’t understand it. Some argue that the Left is far too blinded by their own ideology to comprehend the importance of the Constitution, and that they therefore lack the ability to interpret it honestly.

 

The point is simple: liberals have a preternatural talent to manufacture rights and liberties in the Constitution that don’t exist. No issue better illustrates that truth than gun rights.

 

For decades conservatives have been trying to explain the Second Amendment to liberals, but they just won’t listen. They sniff that certainly our Founding Fathers didn’t really mean “people” (despite having written “people”); they were talking about the militia! The militia can carry as many guns as they please, but the people? Ordinary Americans? How could they be trusted?

 

The Second Amendment clearly states that the “right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” That’s what the Framers wrote, like it or not.

Very true. But a modern interpretation of the Constitution is necessary. Do 'arms' include nuclear weapons? Yes. Should Average Joe be able to buy a nuke? No. Question is, where do you draw the line?

[incubus]

j-btool, the fact that Greg doesn't want to dig up the same old shit to support his argument is moot. The evidence he needs is littered throughout the web. You know it, and so does everyone else. It's been presented copiously for about two years now off and on. Give it a rest, fuckstick.

[Jim]

Greg_W said:

, being attacked by black kids on the streets of Seattle (plenty of those around), whatever.

 

Oh I somehow missed this gem in the discussion. Points to the same general issue, folks who feel the need to carry guns are scared of something, folks that don't look like them maybe? Man, must take a lot of energy being ready for the boggieman to jump out of hiding places in the city, ready to come into your house, etc. More suburban paranoia.

[j_b]

incubus (i.e.trask) said:The evidence he needs is littered throughout the web. You know it, and so does everyone else. It's been presented copiously for about two years now off and on.

 

anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. especially when presented by sensationalistic media and conservative gun totters in need of being reassured because they have an irrational fear of death (or fear of everything different). nothing short of statistics will do.

[incubus]

j_b said:

incubus (i.e.trask) said:The evidence he needs is littered throughout the web. You know it, and so does everyone else. It's been presented copiously for about two years now off and on.

 

anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. especially when presented by sensationalistic media and conservative gun totters in need of being reassured because they have an irrational fear of death (or fear of everything different). nothing short of statistics will do.

here ya go press

[j_b]

incubus said:

j_b said:

incubus (i.e.trask) said:The evidence he needs is littered throughout the web. You know it, and so does everyone else. It's been presented copiously for about two years now off and on.

 

anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. especially when presented by sensationalistic media and conservative gun totters in need of being reassured because they have an irrational fear of death (or fear of everything different). nothing short of statistics will do.

here ya go press

 

i am afraid this is not a fishing expedition (or at least i am not doing the fishing). you'll have to find the statistics supporting "being attacked by black kids on the streets of Seattle (plenty of those around)". until you do so convincingly (since you appear to take up greg's gig), i'll consider it as irrational fear mongering.

[incubus]

No, I'm done with you. This was Greg's gig, not mine. I support myself with a 45 and big redneck balls. If the cops can't protect me from the urban un-American shitballs in Seattle, I'll by god protect myself. You don't like that attitude, tough shit.

[scrambler]

scrambler said:

 

I know one thing. We, as Americans, aren't afraid to kill. Maybe that's part of the plan...

 

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

 

Ok, the intent of the Second Amendment is to defend against oppression. But it seems to be interpreted as, "I have the right to kill you if you infringe on me. That includes my identity and especially the beliefs I hold. A challenge on my dearly held beliefs is an attack on my identity. And damn it, my identity is who I am. Without it, I am nothing. Don't mess with my house and my possessions. That's an attack on me and I'll kill you for it. Possession of a gun is my God-given right and if you attack me I'll send you to your Maker."

 

Oftentimes, you'll find the Truth when you follow the trail of money. Where do you think the money leads? And really, what are we bickering about? If the intent of the Second Amendment is to fight oppression, then why do we get bogged down in the details surrounding guns and not see where the real loss of rights occurs?

 

I suspect technology will provide any answer to the gun control problem when guns are manufactured that can only be fired by their owners (one potential solution--no more cops killed by their own guns, e.g.). And, we'll still have our sacred Second Amendment right. Whatcha think?

[incubus]

Fortunately, I'm old enough that I won't be around to see that day. How did my "Good Government" thread drift to the fucking gun issue again anyway? You guys have one-track minds.

[scrambler]

incubus said:

Fortunately, I'm old enough that I won't be around to see that day. How did my "Good Government" thread drift to the fucking gun issue again anyway? You guys have one-track minds.

 

Well, it kind of started out as a ruse. Avatar... Quote... So would highjacking the thread, that'd be considered acceptable under the rules of spray? Stealth spraying? Pretty soon you find yourself in a quagmire.

[Greg_W]

Jim said:

Greg_W said:

, being attacked by black kids on the streets of Seattle (plenty of those around), whatever.

 

Oh I somehow missed this gem in the discussion. Points to the same general issue, folks who feel the need to carry guns are scared of something, folks that don't look like them maybe? Man, must take a lot of energy being ready for the boggieman to jump out of hiding places in the city, ready to come into your house, etc. More suburban paranoia.

 

Jim, you defend yourself and your family the way you see fit. I'll do the same with mine. No paranoia is involved. End of discussion.

[Cpt.Caveman]

On a recent excursion I was lucky to get this humor from a fellow friend-

 

A quote from Arnold Schwarz.-

 

"I will make decisions for the people"

 

Is that good government?

[incubus]

I'm not arguing with Conan

[Cpt.Caveman]

incubus said:

I'm not arguing with Conan

 

Me either.

 

But is a fucking funny one!

[johnny_destiny]

Dru said:

catbirdseat said:

So basically what you are saying is we need ethnic cleansing.

tHE CHAT ROOM HAS EVIL PEOPLE ON IT THAT CONSPIRE WITH THE EVIL FORCES OF HELL.

 

no... ETHIC cleansing. Like banning Dwayner for having different ethics.

 

Did you know banned persons and avatars can still chat in the chat room? Huh!

[scrambler]

johnny_destiny said:

Dru said:

catbirdseat said:

So basically what you are saying is we need ethnic cleansing.

tHE CHAT ROOM HAS EVIL PEOPLE ON IT THAT CONSPIRE WITH THE EVIL FORCES OF HELL.

 

Hell doan exist, Johnny. It's san imagin'ry creashun design'd to keep ya 'n line. Respect myah authority!

[Rick_Sharpless]

Uh- oh - the gun thing again

 

For those of you who think the 2d amendmentdoes not give an individual - but only the "militia" a right to bear arms - check the definition of militia - it is not the national guard:

 

§ 38.04.030. Composition of the militia

 

 

The militia of the state of Washington shall consist of all able bodied citizens of the United States and all other able bodied persons who have declared their intention to become citizens of the United States, residing within this state, who shall be more than eighteen years of age, and shall include all persons who are members of the national guard and the state guard, and said militia shall be divided into two classes, the organized militia and the unorganized militia.

 

Rev. Code Wash. (ARCW) § 38.04.030

 

 

Most states have something similar - except in some - the miltia is only the guys. So if you think that the second amendment doesn't give the right to all "people" then I gues you favor no guns for women in those states where the militia is only men????

 

Saying the second amendment only lets the guard - or whatever - have guns is like saying that the right to counsel only applies if you are innocent

[minx]

...

[sk]

minx said:

Muffy_The_Wanker_Sprayer said:

minx said:

maybe it is?

I firmly believe that if I want to die with my brains splatted all over I-5 I aught to be able to. It is my choice. Would you want some one to tell you that you can't climb because it isn't safe???

 

i hate to be told what to do but in reality what i dislike even more is having to pay (as a taxpayer) for the damage people do to themselves when it's avoidable. seat belts and helmets mitigate the injuries people receive from motor vehicle accidents.

 

this reduces the liklihood that i'll be paying for their extended stay in a the hospital or rehab facility b/c they've become a carrot. obviously these things don't eliminate this problem.

 

the preponderance of evidence shows that helmets and seatbelts significantly reduce injuries and save lives. because of that, i think passing laws requiring their use is in the public's best interest. (ie. my interest as a taxpayer)

I agree Minx. I hate to be told what to do as well

 

idon't have statistics... but it seems to me that if you get in a major accident with out a helmet you just die... no questions asked do not pass go. with a helmet... magor injery etc. etc.

 

for the most part I would probably wear a helmet any way, but I would rather choose for myself.

[rbw1966]

Some states have repealed their helmet laws. You can choose to live in those states.

 

The wonderful thing about choice is it works both ways--I can choose to live in a place that makes helmet use mandatory or I can choose to not care about the subject, or even choose to move to a state that allows me to ride without a helmet. Another choice is to do something to change the laws I don't like. If enough like-minded folks choose to feel the same way then my choice may become a law. We live in a dynamic political system and change occurs constantly reflecting changes in social values and concerns.

[incubus]

authority figures have small genitals

[sk]

rbw1966 said:

Some states have repealed their helmet laws. You can choose to live in those states.

 

The wonderful thing about choice is it works both ways--I can choose to live in a place that makes helmet use mandatory or I can choose to not care about the subject, or even choose to move to a state that allows me to ride without a helmet. Another choice is to do something to change the laws I don't like. If enough like-minded folks choose to feel the same way then my choice may become a law. We live in a dynamic political system and change occurs constantly reflecting changes in social values and concerns.

blah blah blah, did you say something of importance???

 

P.S. I know that, and that was not the point that I was making. And Just to be clear, In Oregon it has gotten so out of controle with small groups getting stupid laws on the ballet it has become rediculus. I do not want to debate this.It is boring and irritating. It seems to me that the vocal minority are such a pain in the ass that they get their way in Eugene JUST SO THEY WILL SHUT UP. and it is destroying our comunity.