Gore tex vs all others

[kb0rrg]

I am a believer in gore-tex. It is not a miracle fabric, but I know is does breath and it is waterproof and most anything that has a gore-tex layer will do so.

 

I know that there are dozens of waterproof/breathable fabrics on the market now. Most are cheaper that gore-tex. Are these just imitators, or are these equal to or better that the original? I hate to experiment my $300 to find this answer.

[eternalX]

More info would be helpful. Are you looking at buying a jacket? What are you going to use it for? During this time of year i'm not sure what you need gore-tex for at all.

 

There was an OK article on slate the other day talking about gore-tex and about how much of it is just marketing. That new EVENT stuff is suppose to be better.

 

[fleblebleb]

[hakioawa]

Gortext works. But from what I've found it has way less to do with the fabric than the construction. You pay $300 or $400 for a jackey and it dam well better be waterproof, breathable and bomb proof. And thats the thing. If you use gortex its already soo expensive doing things like taping seams and sculpting the jacket to move better is relatively less expensive. When was the last time you saw a gortex jacket w/o taped seams and high quality construction. There are tons of waterproof breathable jackets that do not have these details and sell for $100 or less. They cut corners, and you are left with a lower quality garment.

 

Lookt at the Marmot Precip stuff. I've found it is more breathable an gortex and very well built.

[Toast]

I'll lay into Mountain Hardware Conduit SL CRAP.

 

I bought a MH bivvy bag made of Conduit SL. It was billed as breathable and as "good as" Goretex by the sales guy. I got wet from condensation overnight three or four times in a row and returned the thing for a plain vanilla Goretex bivvy bag that's done me just fine. The price difference between the two was negligible.

 

Mountain Hardware Conduit SL

[Alpine_Tom]

My feeling is that Gore-Tex is sort of a scam. It may be, in fact, that under laboratory conditions it does behave as advertised, but in the real world I haven't seen it.

If you're hot and sweaty, you'll probably take off the shell, anyhow, right? So it being able to breathe isn't such a big deal. And if you are out in the rain, eventually it does seep through goretex, even new, clean goretex. (maybe it is the seams, or imperfectly cut clothing, but in the real world, you can't separate the components.)

And, in fact, Jim Nelson has the same opinion: he says that a $50 wind shirt treated with Scotchgard keeps him drier than a $300 goretex shell.

Ray Jardin in his hiking book recommends using a lightweight umbrella, and I tried that once, on a drizzly hike, and it worked wonderfully well: plenty of ventilation, kept dry, didn't get sweaty the way I would have with a shell, goretex or otherwise. It wouldn't have worked on a scramble approach, but with a free hand, I was really impressed at how effective it was.

OTOH, Gore spends a LOT more $$ on marketing than Jardin does.

[cj001f]

Toast said:Mountain Hardware Conduit SL

A hearty second to that! I had a similar experience with their bivy sac, which I've not repeated with a GTX bivy or the Winter bivy.

 

I wouldn't say Goretex is a scam, it just works best when your not expelling a ton of moisture - like Downhill skiing, or walking around Piioneer Courthouse Square in the rain...

[Sphinx]

I'd say GoreTex and most of the other knockoffs will keep you dry from the outside. They breathe, but you have to adjust clothing very carefully so you don't overheat. I tend not to use a WP/B jacket very often, I use mine as an 'oh shit' piece, if, say, I get caught on Glacier Peak in a storm.

[allthumbs]

I'm a gear bitch, so I've tried, and returned, a lot of the shit. When the dust finally settled, I found I was left with an Arcteryx bomber goretex parka. I cut out all the pockets and horseshit on the inside though. Now it weighs only about 18 oz. When I'm forced to wear the bitch, I leave the pit zips and main zipper open as much as possible, and wear as little shit under it as possible too. The fucking hood is what really makes me hot and sweaty, so I shun that bitch like the plague. I hope this short gear test from me helps you gumbies that can't decide.

[ncascademtns]

You guys what the truth.

Gore lost the patent material a couple of years ago, that is why they came out Gore-Tex XCR.

Any of the new stuff that the other companys are coming out with do the job just as well. Same idea, different name. I stuck with Gore through the years because it was the best. I even have one of the XCR jackets. Last year I bought the SD Backpacker jacket with their Genesis Material. Same idea as Gore-Tex.

Don't be afraid to buy stuff other than Gore-Tex. More than likely, that are using the same concept. Read the reviews.

Make sure they state that it is their best breathable material but read the reviews. i.e. Marmots Precip crap.

But your right. Gore-Tex is a house hold name and you can't go wrong with the stuff.

 

[Alpine_Tom]

I heard about this article over the weekend:

 

http://slate.msn.com/id/2085417/

 

The salient point:

 

In Gore's marketing pitch, the key component of GORE-TEX is a sheet of Teflon (that chemical coating on your frying pan) stretched out to form tiny pores that are big enough to allow air vapor to pass, but too small for water droplets to get through. Voila: waterproof, breathable. This membrane is then laminated to a regular fabric (like nylon). In pure form, expanded Teflon membranes are incredibly breathable. But there's a flaw. Sweat and oil that touch the membranes can act as a conduit to sneak water droplets through the pores. Thus, Gore is forced to cover its Teflon with a special coat of polyurethane, or PU, to protect it from sweat and oil. But now what's really keeping the water out is the PU (which is itself 100 percent waterproof), not the Teflon. The PU is breathable but far less breathable than the Teflon would be alone. In the end, the GORE-TEX membrane ends up doing nothing at all. It's just there so Gore can say it's there. Says Gibson, "I don't really see the point of the Teflon, but that's part of their patent. The Teflon is just a skeleton. The functional part is the PU." So, GORE-TEX is effectively no different than all the hundreds of other fabrics out there that use PU coatings, including those in nearly all my test raincoats. GORE-TEX is a scam!

 

One notable fabric—it's called eVENT, and I tested it in the Pearl Izumi Channel Jacket (my priciest model at $199.99)—uses expanded Teflon like GORE-TEX does, but its makers claim they've found a way around using a PU coating. They use some sort of complicated, proprietary treatment to make the Teflon itself oil-repellent. Gibson's lab tests bear this out—eVENT was the most breathable rainwear fabric out there. GORE-TEX was just average.

 

 

[Rodchester]

So it being able to breathe isn't such a big deal.

 

Gore-tex and other WPBs have their place. They are not perfect. I grew up using actual coated nylon, old school non-breathable coating. They suck, and GoreTex is a HUGE improvement over the old technology (if you could even call that technology). Gore-tex's breathability is often slammed by those that never used the true old school coated nylon non-breathables.

 

It is true that the breathability often cannot keep up with the activity. But eventually once the activity slows, with good baselayers, it will breath out the remaining sweat.

 

If you've used the old stuff, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Whether you're moving or not, you sweat and with the coated non-breathables it just builds up inside. With Goretex it eventually works its way out.

 

And if you are out in the rain, eventually it does seep through Goretex, even new, clean Goretex.

 

This is incorrect. If your Gortex is leaking take it back. Usually what happens is that your Goretex "wets out". This means that the DWR can no longer handle to volume of water on the surface of the material and it effectively clogs the Goretex's ability to breath, thus causing a build up of sweat on the inside just as the old school coated non-breathables did. All WBPs suffer from this effect.

 

I have used breathable coatings and found them to peel too quickly. I have used GopreTex with mostly good results. I would recommend looking at Lowe Alpine's products. I have heard many good things regarding their waterproofness and breathability.

 

I also used a pair of Sympatex bibs. They actually performed quite well for many years and I would buy the material again. However, it seems to be big in Europe, but has never caught on here in the states.

 

Good luck...

[ncascademtns]

Good posts! !

 

 

[kb0rrg]

Any opinion about REI elements?

[Sphinx]

kb0rrg said:

Any opinion about REI elements?

 

It works, but it's nothing special. I feel that the difference in breathability between all WP/B clothing is small enough that I don't worry about it. Buy what fits, what works for you, and don't wear it when it's not raining.

[skyclimb]

MEC. Made of Gore-tex XCR 3 Layer.

Talisman Jacket......

Withstands the worst winter conditions you can throw at it. I have no complaints whatso ever about this garment.

Also own a pair of MEC goretex pants. The only problem I have with these is the suspender attachments, ride into my waist when carrying a heavy pack.

100+mph winds=protection....Blah,blah blah.

I am satisfied with MEC>

Only down side of Goretex, is that it is not the most flexible material, liek the softshell tech.

With the ventilation underarm zippers, you should never overheat.

[David_Parker]

If it's not raining, why even wear a gortex shell. If it's windy, there are plenty more breathable fabrics that cut the wind. If it's raining, none of the shit works when it's wet and you're going to be turning around and heading down if it's raining really hard. I think Marc Twight's book Extreme Alpinism makes some excellent points about all this shit. Also, when you have a pack on your back, you're blocking a huge area that could ventilate. I use a lightweight (5 oz) coated nylon shell (no liner) with excellent ventilation in the chest area and it cost $5.00 at a thrift store. I'm with Trask about the hood thing. Take your friggin' hat off if you need to breathe! I rarely wear a hat, just a headband for my ears, even on cold days ice climbing or skiing. If I need a little more warmth, I pull up my hood and that is plenty. The "miracle" is in your head and not the fabric. Use your head, not your wallet!

[mattp]

David_Parker said:

The "miracle" is in your head and not the fabric. Use your head, not your wallet!

 

I used to know someone that used a ratty old windbreaker, a garbage bag, and an umbrella. He called it "Scottish goretex." And he did just fine.

[Cpt.Caveman]

Gore-tex is a ripoff. They got me a long time ago. I'm not going to throw away my jacket but the next purchase will not be gore-tex. Most likely rubber or nylon.

 

A lot of the so called waterproof breathables are just ripoffs in my mind. You sweat you get wet. It rains you still get wet.

 

Mattp has a perfect rubber jacket I wish I had. I'll just wait until I have too many holes in my jacket until I get one.

[Sphinx]

Cpt.Caveman said:

Gore-tex is a ripoff. They got me a long time ago. I'm not going to throw away my jacket but the next purchase will not be gore-tex. Most likely rubber or nylon.

 

A lot of the so called waterproof breathables are just ripoffs in my mind. You sweat you get wet. It rains you still get wet.

 

Mattp has a perfect rubber jacket I wish I had. I'll just wait until I have too many holes in my jacket until I get one.

Not true, either. Goretex works, but you have to be aware of its limitations.