2002 - International Year of the Mountains

[Fairweather]

quote:

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Originally posted by erik:

winter,

now you are the same as fairwether with your comments. so repub vs demo is allworhtless anyways.....[/QB].just like most media....i wonder what ted turner thinks???....hmmmm lets turn on the the tv and find out......the media is as crooked as the most crooked politician.....what can i get for myself???

i think all people have had a valid opinion with this subject, but this is also a subject that has many different correct opinions. you just have to wade through the bullshit and pick up the facts that you believe are important and either hold true to your original opinion or maybe even form a new one.[/QB]

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Eric,

I appreciate your comments. However...

I have never questioned anyone else's privelege to post here. I find it amusing that those on the "left" side of the issues are usually the first to call for a poster to be "banned", or to "crawl back into their cave", or to "just go away". Their world - without debate - would be a lonely place.

Everyone here assumes that I am Republican. While certainly a conservative (secular!), I would like you to understand I do not necessarily view issues as Dem/Rep. My US Rep is a Democrat (Norm Dicks) and I support him every 2 years. I also like Gary Locke a great deal. (Dem Gov of WA for those outside the Evergreen State)

I do not support all conservative positions (ie: "choice") but I do support the current Bush administration on most issues including their response to the attacks of 9/11/01.

I enjoy challenging environmentalists on issues that are gray. I detest those who blame "corporate America" for ALL of the world's ills. (Although they ARE responsible for SOME. Like it or not, all of us are part of the "corporation".) I detest the way the "solitude" provisions of The Wilderness Act are interpreted by NPS and some USFS sections and used to limit access. I don't question the beliefs of those who are "pacifists" or their good intentions, I just view them as naieve. (If America is so bad, why do so many want to come live here?) I support individualism over collectivism.

I know you did not ask for my manifesto, but I think there is some seriously misguided speculation (hysteria, even!) about my views by a few here and I again would like to point out I have not ever suggested anyone leave this debate and "crawl back into their cave".

When the weather gets better I'll be back in the mountains and not spending time in front of this screen debating issues that none of us have a great deal of control over.

[Zenolith]

Mattp,

I was referring to the damage to infrastructure, etc. I don't think that carpet bombing the country was necessary and to hear that people that were already in a bad way are being killed, maimed, cut off from hope, etc is narrowminded and shortsighted. This type of action represents the view expressed by someone in this thread to the effect of "...as long as they don't affect life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness here in the USA". I don't believe in social Darwinism and I think that compassion is a capacity that separates human beings from other animals. The idea that the elite of the human race are somehow meant to rise to the top and stay there at the expense of the "suffering class", "working poor", "third world", etc. makes me sick. Yes, I am glad that I am not them, but I have dedicated much of my time, career objectives, money, etc. to solving the problems of the self-obsessed West. Sometimes people suggest (as an idiotic rhetorical tool) that people who voice similar views should sell their gear and give it to the poor or whatever. Climbing keeps me motivated, inspired, and healthy and I am operating on a personal system of ethics that allows me to be true to my beliefs AND remain happy.

You don't really think that King George and co. decided to start an unofficial and brutal war under duress do you? Yes, their backs may have been against the wall but they are leaders and I think they would have been supported by a greater percentage of the public if they had ONLY bombed radio towers, airports and such and then mounted a counterinsurgency campaign or something else. I think most people know that the reason we fight from the air is that we don't have to see what we've done.

I know this is unrealistic but if I could decide who should declare and fight wars I would have it put to a majority vote; if it looses, there's no war. If it wins, all those in favor, go fight and the rest work on building bombs, jets, homeland security, paying war taxes, etc. Such a system would hear, not "these colors don't bleed" but rather, "give peace a chance".

[AlpineK]

Uhm.. I think we need that moron guy to show W and Zenolith how to write a post that's shorter and easier to read.

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: AlpineK ]

[Bronco]

quote:

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Originally posted by Zenolith:

I agree that bin Laden and associates has to be caught (killed). I am not a pacifist. However, killing innocent people is not something a technologically advanced and supposedly moral society has to, or should, do.

Yes, I have a bleeding heart, better than none. And to find out the truth I have to find uncensored news. You can't get that in the "land of the free". US reporters are not allowed in combat zones by this government. Not since reporting from battle zones in Vietnam changed the tide of public opinion have we had freedom of the press in war time.

"Listen to the language of the Pentagon: "We cannot confirm thereport...civilian casualties are inevitable...we don't know if theywere our weapons...it was an accident...incorrect coordinates had beenentered...they are deliberately putting civilians in our bombingtargets...the village was a legitimate military target...it justdidn't happen...we regret any loss of civilian life."

Listening to the repeated excuses given by Bush, Rumsfeld and others,one recalls Colin Powell's reply at the end of the Gulf War, whenquestioned about Iraqi casualties: "That is really not a matter I amterribly interested in." If, indeed, a strict definition of the word"deliberate" does not apply to the bombs dropped on the civilians ofAfghanistan, then we can offer, thinking back toPowell's statement, an alternate characterization: "a recklessdisregard for human life."

The denials of the Pentagon are uttered confidently half a world awayin Washington. But there are on-the-spot press reports from thevillages, from hospitals where the wounded lie and from the Pakistanborder, where refugees have fled the bombs. A professor of economics at the University of NewHampshire, Marc Herold, has done a far more thorough survey of thepress than I have. He lists location, type of weapon used and sourcesof information. He finds the civilian death toll in Afghanistan up toDecember 10 exceeding 3,500 (he has since raised the figure to 4,000),a sad and startling parallel to the number of victims in the twintowers.

[My freedom, as defined by this culture (Pepsi or Coke, Democrat or Republican, etc) is not worth the price being paid by others of my species. Think about]...the hopesand dreams of those who died, especially the children, for whom fortyor fifty years of mornings, love, friendship, sunsets and the sheerexhilaration of being alive were extinguished by monstrous machinessent over their land by men far away.

My intention is not at all to diminish our compassion for the victimsof the terrorism of September 11, but to enlarge that compassion toinclude the victims of all terrorism, in any place, at any time,whether perpetrated by Middle East fanatics or American politicians.

In that spirit, I present the following news items (only a fraction ofthose in my files), hoping that there is the patience to go throughthem, like the patience required to read the portraits of theSeptember 11 dead, like the patience required to read the 58,000 nameson the Vietnam Memorial:

>From a hospital in Jalalabad, Afghanistan, reported in the BostonGlobe by John Donnelly on December 5:

"In one bed lay Noor Mohammad, 10, who was a bundle of bandages. Helost his eyes and hands to the bomb that hit his house after Sundaydinner. Hospital director Guloja Shimwari shook his head at the boy'swounds. 'The United States must be thinking he is Osama,' Shimwarisaid. 'If he is not Osama, then whywould they do this?'"

The report continued:

"The hospital's morgue received 17 bodies last weekend, and officialshere estimate at least 89 civilians were killed in several villages.In the hospital yesterday, a bomb's damage could be chronicled in thelife of one family. A bomb had killed the father, Faisal Karim. In onebed was his wife, Mustafa Jama, who had severe head injuries....Around her, six of her children were in bandages.... One of them,Zahidullah, 8, lay in a coma."

In the New York Times, Barry Bearak, reporting December 15 from thevillage of Madoo, Afghanistan, tells of the destruction of fifteenhouses and their occupants. "'In the night, as we slept, they droppedthe bombs on us,' said Paira Gul, a young man whose eyes were aflamewith bitterness. His sisters and their families had perished, hesaid.... The houses were small, the bombing precise. No structureescaped the thundering havoc. Fifteen houses, 15 ruins.... 'Most ofthe dead are children,' Tor Tul said."

Another Times reporter, C.J. Chivers, writing from the village ofCharykari on December 12, reported "a terrifying and rolling barragethat the villagers believe was the payload of an American B-52.... Thevillagers say 30 people died.... One man, Muhibullah, 40, led the waythrough his yard and showed three unexploded cluster bombs he isafraid to touch. A fourth was not a dud. It landed near his porch. 'Myson was sitting there...the metal went inside him.' The boy, Zumarai,5, is in a hospital in Kunduz, with wounds to leg and abdomen. Hissister, Sharpari, 10, was killed. 'The United States killed mydaughter and injured my son,' Mr. Muhibullah said. 'Six of my cowswere destroyed and all of my wheat and rice was burned. I am veryangry. I miss my daughter.'"

>From the Washington Post, October 24, from Peshawar, Pakistan, byPamela Constable: "Sardar, a taxi driver and father of 12, said hisfamily had spent night after night listening to the bombing in theircommunity south of Kabul. One night during the first week, he said, abomb aimed at a nearby radio station struck a house, killing all fivemembers of the family living there. 'There was no sign of a homeleft,' he said. 'We just collected the pieces of bodies and buriedthem.'"

Reporter Catherine Philp of the Times of London, reporting October 25from Quetta, Pakistan: "It was not long after 7 pm on Sunday when thebombs began to fall over the outskirts of Torai village.... Rushingoutside, Mauroof saw amassive fireball. Morning brought an end to the bombing and...aneighbor arrived to tell him that some 20 villagers had been killed inthe blasts, among them ten of his relatives. 'I saw the body of one ofmy brothers-in-law being pulled from the debris,' Mauroof said. 'Thelower part of his body had been blown away. Some of the other bodieswere unrecognizable. There were heads missing and arms blown off....'The roll call of the dead read like an invitation list to a familywedding: his mother-in-law, two sisters-in-law, three brothers-in-law,and four of his sister's five young children, two girls and two boys,all under the age of eight."

Human Rights Watch report, October 26: "Twenty-five-year-oldSamiullah...rushed home to rescue his family.... he found the bodiesof his twenty-year-old wife and three of his children: Mohibullah,aged six; Harifullah, aged three; and Bibi Aysha, aged one.... Alsokilled were his two brothers, Nasiullah, aged eight, and Ghaziullah,aged six, as well as two of his sisters, aged fourteen and eleven."

>From Reuters, October 28, Sayed Salahuddin reporting from Kabul: "AU.S. bomb flattened a flimsy mud-brick home in Kabul Sunday, blowingapart seven children as they ate breakfast with their father.... Sobsracked the body of a middle-aged man as he cradled the head of hisbaby, its dust-covered body dressed only in a blue diaper, lyingbeside the bodies of three other children, their colorful clotheslayered with debris from their shattered homes."

Washington Post Foreign Service, November 2, from Quetta, Pakistan, byRajiv Chandrasekaran: "The thunder of the first explosions joltedNasir Ahmed awake.... he grabbed his 14-year-old niece and scurriedinto a communal courtyard. From there, he said, they watched ascivilians who survived the bombing run, including his niece and awoman holding her 5-year-old son, were gunned down by a slow-moving,propeller-driven aircraft circling overheard. When the gunshipdeparted an hour later, at least 25 people in the village--allcivilians--were dead, according to accounts of the incident providedtoday by Ahmed, two other witnesses, and several relatives of peoplein the village.

"The Pentagon confirmed that the village was hit...but officials saidthey believe the aircraft struck a legitimate military target....Asked about civilian casualties, the official said, 'We don't know.We're not on the ground.'

"Shaida, 14.... 'Americans are not good.... They killed my mother.They killed my father. I don't understand why.'"

A Newsday report on November 24 from Kabul, by James Rupert: "In thesprawling, mud-brick slum of Qala-ye-Khatir, most men were kneeling inthe mosques at morning prayer on November 6 when a quarter-ton ofsteel and high explosives hurtled from the sky into the home of GulAhmed, a carpet weaver. The American bomb detonated, killing Ahmed,his five daughters, one of his wives, and a son. Next door, itdemolished the home of Sahib Dad and killed two of his children....

"Ross Chamberlain, the coordinator for U.N. mine-clearing operationsin much of Afghanistan.... 'There's really no such thing as aprecision bombing.... We are finding more cases of errant targetingthan accurate targeting, more misses than hits.'"

The New York Times, November 22, from Ghaleh Shafer, Afghanistan:"10-year-old Mohebolah Seraj went out to collect wood for his family,and thought he had happened upon a food packet. He picked it up andlost three fingers in an explosion. Doctors say he will probably losehis whole hand.... his mother, Sardar Seraj...said that she cried andtold the doctors not to cut off her son's whole hand...

"The hospital where her son is being cared for is a grim place,lacking power and basic sanitation. In one room lay Muhammad Ayoub, a20-year-old who was in the house when the cluster bomb initiallylanded. He lost a leg and his eyesight, and his face was severelydisfigured. He moaned in agony.... Hospital officials said that a16-year-old had been decapitated."

A New York Times report on December 3 from Jalalabad, Afghanistan, byTim Weiner: "The commanders, who are pro-American...say that fournearby villages were struck this weekend, leaving 80 or more peopledead and others wounded.... The villages are near Tora Bora, themountain camp where Mr. bin Laden is presumed to be hiding. A Pentagonspokesman said Saturday that the bombing of civilians near Tora Bora'never happened.'

"Eight men guarding the building [a district office building]...werekilled, [mujahedeen commander] Hajji Zaman said. He gave the names ofthe dead as Zia ul-Hassan, 16; Wilayat Khan, 17; Abdul Wadi, 20; Jany,22; Abdul Wahid, 30; Hajji Wazir, 35; Hajji Nasser, also 35; and AwliaGul, 37.... Ali Shah, 26, of Landa Khel, said, 'There is no one inthis village who is part of Al Qaeda.'

"Witnesses said that at least 50 and as many as 200 villagers had beenkilled.

"'We are poor people,' [Muhammad] Tahir said. 'Our trees are our onlyshelter from the cold and wind. The trees have been bombed. Ourwaterfall, our only source of water--they bombed it. Where is thehumanity?'"

The Independent, December 4: "The village where nothing happened....The cemetery on the hill contains 40 freshly dug graves, unmarked andidentical. And the village of Kama Ado has ceased to exist.... And allthis is very strange because, on Saturday morning--when American B-52sunloaded dozens of bombs that killed 115 men, women andchildren--nothing happened.... We know this because the U.S.Department of Defence told us so.... 'It just didn't happen.'"

The New York Times, December 12, David Rohde, writing from Ghazni,Afghanistan: "Each ward of the Ghazni Hospital features a newcalamity. In the first, two 14-year-old boys had lost parts of theirhands when they picked up land mines. 'I was playing with a toy and itexploded' said one of them, Muhammad Allah.... a woman named Rose layon a bed in the corner of the room, grunting with each breath. Herwaiflike children slept nearby, whimpering periodically. Early onSunday morning, shrapnel from an American bomb tore through thewoman's abdomen, broke her 4-year-old son's leg and ripped into her6-year-old daughter's head, doctors here said. A second 6-year-oldgirl in the room was paralyzed from the waist down. X-rays showed howa tiny shard of metal had neatly severed her spinal cord."

Reported in the Chicago Tribune, December 28, by Paul Salopek, fromMadoo, Afghanistan: "'American soldiers came after the bombing andasked if any Al Qaeda had lived here,' said villager Paira Gul. 'Isthat an Al Qaeda?' Gul asked, pointing to a child's severed foot hehad excavated minutes earlier from a smashed house. 'Tell me' he said,his voice choking with fury, 'is that what an Al Qaeda looks like?'"

Reuters, December 31, from Qalaye Niazi, Afghanistan: "Janat Gul said24 members of his family were killed in the pre-dawn U.S. bombing raidon Qalaye Niazi, and described himself as the sole survivor.... In theU.S. Major Pete Mitchell--a spokesman for U.S. Central Command--said:'We are aware of the incident and we are currently investigating.'"

Yes, these reports appeared, but scattered through the months ofbombing and on the inside pages, or buried in larger stories andaccompanied by solemn government denials. With no access toalternative information, it is not surprising that a majority ofAmericans have approved of what they have been led to think is a "waron terrorism."

Recall that Americans at first supported the war in Vietnam. But oncethe statistics of the dead became visible human beings--once they sawnot only the body bags of young GIs piling up by the tens of thousandsbut also the images of the napalmed children, the burning huts, themassacred families at My Lai--shock and indignation fueled a nationalmovement to end the war.

I do believe that if people could see the consequences of the bombingcampaign as vividly as we were all confronted with the horrifyingphotos in the wake of September 11, if they saw on television nightafter night the blinded and maimed children, the weeping parents ofAfghanistan, they might ask: Is this the way to combat terrorism?"-Howard Zinn in "The Nation"

If this is what America stands for, don't call me one.

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I just thought it would be cool to make this page as long as possible. I am not about to get into this discussion.

You guys are way too sophisticated/edjacated and would bury me.

[Dru]

how long is it gonna be till someone puts up a sport route called "axis of evil"?

just

keep

it

going

new longest thread, "Afghanistan on Saturday?"

Fairweather sux! W Sux! Zenolith sux! Mattp sux! Matt sux! Dru sux! Cascade Legend Roger Johnson does not suck, that opening move on Rogers Tower is a bold one.

[erik]

fairwether et al.....

please spell my damn name right....it is not like there is no where to find the correct spelling.....

anyway i am the 25th person my family to carry my name so atleast do it for the respect of history...

[W]

quote:

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Originally posted by roger johnson:

W You stated "To understand something is to be infinitely capable of dealing with it rightly and with finality"Isn't that the crux of the climb? To Understand...Anything and everything is open to interpretation. It is hard enoug to get two people to agree on some things let alone two nations or two religions or two economic classes.

I find it very educational to rad newspapers from other parts of the world to get new prespectives on the USA and our place in the world. Even the BBC gives a new angle to our world posture. DW tv out of Berlin has another slant. How to know and undestand?

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Excellent questions, Roger. You've hit on one thing for sure- getting two nations or religious groups to agree on something is difficult at best, impossible at worst. Perhaps these identifications are the very things that need closer examination and questioning. How to understand? While reading other people's views is important and informative, I would say that ultimately understanding is not solely a matter of an informed personal decision. In all of the reading and studying of other people's views, and views here at home, out of all of that- one should notice a common thread with all people. And that is that most people form their actions and attitudes towards the world based on their religions, nationalities, and economic status. In other words, by and large it is according to whatever group with which they identify and with whatever expresses and promotes their own personal agenda. Does this not perpetuate divisive and antagonistic attitudes? Is life really a problem? Are any of these identifications and attachments so significant that it should lead humans to engage in wars and killing and to enact economic policies that cause some to feast and others to starve? Is there any reality to any of this, beyond the ambiguous assertions of the various pundits and zealots? If one can fully notice the very same processes of identification and conditioned responses occurring in oneself, one will see for themselves what is false and thus break free of all forms of external conditioning- understanding of anything becomes a constant, dynamic action, an ongoing part of life, as does the ability to relate to all on the most simple, yet vital, basis. Yes it is the crux, but we cannot "back off" from it. Like any climbing crux, when you actually are clear and commit to it, it is no longer really a "problem"- you quit thinking your way out of it and just do it.

Oh yeah, Dru- pucker up, baby.

[Terry]

Don't mean to belittle the great discussion going on here, but this is too good to pass up.Terry

"In his speech, Bush calls Iraq, Iran and North Korea 'Axis of Evil" -- N.Y.Times,1/30/02

ANGERED BY THEIR SNUBBING, LIBYA, CHINA AND SYRIA FORM 'AXIS OF JUST AS EVIL'; Cuba, Sudan, Serbia Form 'Axis of Somewhat Evil'; Other Nations Start Own Clubs

Beijing : Bitter after being snubbed for membership in the "Axis of Evil," Libya, China, and Syria today announced they had formed the "Axis of Just as Evil," which they said would be way eviler than that stupid Iran-Iraq-North Korea axis President Bush warned of his State of the Union address.

Axis of Evil members, however, immediately dismissed the new axis as having, for starters, a really dumb name. "Right. They are Just as Evil...... in their dreams!" declared North Korean leader Kim Jong-il. "Everybody knows we're the best evils... best at being evil... we're the best."

Diplomats from Syria denied they were jealous over being excluded, although they conceded they did ask if they could join the Axis of Evil. "They told us it was full," said Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

"An Axis can't have more than three countries," explained Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. "This is not my rule, it's tradition. In World War II you had Germany, Italy, and Japan in the evil Axis. So you can only have three. And a secret handshake. Ours is wicked cool."

THE AXIS PANDEMIC

International reaction to Bush's Axis of Evil declaration was swift, as within minutes, France surrendered. Elsewhere, peer-conscious nations rushed to gain triumvirate status in what became a game of geopolitical chairs. Cuba, Sudan, and Serbia said they had formed the Axis of Somewhat Evil, forcing Somalia to join with Uganda and Myanmar in the Axis of Occasionally Evil, while Bulgaria, Indonesia and Russia established the Axis of Not So Much Evil Really As Just Generally Disagreeable.

With the criteria suddenly expanded and all the desirable clubs filling up, Sierra Leone, El Salvador, and Rwanda applied to be called the Axis of Countries That Aren't the Worst But Certainly Won't Be Asked to Host the Olympics; Canada, Mexico, and Australia formed the Axis of Nations That Are Actually Quite Nice But Secretly Have Nasty Thoughts About America, while Spain, Scotland, and New Zealand established the Axis of Countries That Be Allowed to Ask Sheep to Wear Lipstick. "That's not a threat, really, just something we like to do," said Scottish Executive First Minister Jack McConnell.

While wondering if the other nations of the world weren't perhaps making fun of him, a cautious Bush granted approval for most axes, although he rejected the establishment of the Axis of Countries Whose Names End in "Guay," accusing one of its members of filing a false application. Officials from Paraguay, Uruguay, and Chadguay denied the charges.

Israel, meanwhile, insisted it didn't want to join any Axis, but privately, world leaders said that's only because no one asked them.

[Dru]

quote:

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Originally posted by Terry:

Don't mean to belittle the great discussion going on here, but this is too good to pass up.Terry

"In his speech, Bush calls Iraq, Iran and North Korea 'Axis of Evil" -- N.Y.Times,1/30/02

ANGERED BY THEIR SNUBBING, LIBYA, CHINA AND SYRIA FORM 'AXIS OF JUST AS EVIL'; Cuba, Sudan, Serbia Form 'Axis of Somewhat Evil'; Other Nations Start Own Clubs

Beijing : Bitter after being snubbed for membership in the "Axis of Evil," Libya, China, and Syria today announced they had formed the "Axis of Just as Evil," which they said would be way eviler than that stupid Iran-Iraq-North Korea axis President Bush warned of his State of the Union address.

Axis of Evil members, however, immediately dismissed the new axis as having, for starters, a really dumb name. "Right. They are Just as Evil...... in their dreams!" declared North Korean leader Kim Jong-il. "Everybody knows we're the best evils... best at being evil... we're the best."

Diplomats from Syria denied they were jealous over being excluded, although they conceded they did ask if they could join the Axis of Evil. "They told us it was full," said Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

"An Axis can't have more than three countries," explained Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. "This is not my rule, it's tradition. In World War II you had Germany, Italy, and Japan in the evil Axis. So you can only have three. And a secret handshake. Ours is wicked cool."

THE AXIS PANDEMIC

International reaction to Bush's Axis of Evil declaration was swift, as within minutes, France surrendered. Elsewhere, peer-conscious nations rushed to gain triumvirate status in what became a game of geopolitical chairs. Cuba, Sudan, and Serbia said they had formed the Axis of Somewhat Evil, forcing Somalia to join with Uganda and Myanmar in the Axis of Occasionally Evil, while Bulgaria, Indonesia and Russia established the Axis of Not So Much Evil Really As Just Generally Disagreeable.

With the criteria suddenly expanded and all the desirable clubs filling up, Sierra Leone, El Salvador, and Rwanda applied to be called the Axis of Countries That Aren't the Worst But Certainly Won't Be Asked to Host the Olympics; Canada, Mexico, and Australia formed the Axis of Nations That Are Actually Quite Nice But Secretly Have Nasty Thoughts About America, while Spain, Scotland, and New Zealand established the Axis of Countries That Be Allowed to Ask Sheep to Wear Lipstick. "That's not a threat, really, just something we like to do," said Scottish Executive First Minister Jack McConnell.

While wondering if the other nations of the world weren't perhaps making fun of him, a cautious Bush granted approval for most axes, although he rejected the establishment of the Axis of Countries Whose Names End in "Guay," accusing one of its members of filing a false application. Officials from Paraguay, Uruguay, and Chadguay denied the charges.

Israel, meanwhile, insisted it didn't want to join any Axis, but privately, world leaders said that's only because no one asked them.

---

[Dwayner]

Mr. Puget:

That was the most poorly phrased load of crap I've read on this board in weeks....and that's saying something! Now I am under the impression that you are generally a very bright and thoughtful fellow, so how about restating your opinion without the blather...effective communication is a desirable skill and I know you've got it in you. Remember those old comments about eschewing obfuscation? You're backsliding, my brother! We want to hear what you have to say! Give it another try!

aloha, Dwayner

[Peter_Puget]

Dwayner -

Think of it as modern poetry with a touch of French.

[JayB]

quote:

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Originally posted by Peter Puget:

Dwayner -Think of it as modern poetry with a touch of French.

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Postmodern, even. Not a bad rendition I must say. For a truly world-class skewering of that genre check out "Transgressing the Boundaries: The Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity." at:http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html This actually got published in a trendy post-mod rag before being revealed as a hoax and caused an uproar not seen since the days of the Piltdown Man.

[vegetablebelay]

Can we get to the great cc.com debates over abortion and gun control now?

[Peter_Puget]

If, for a while, the ruse of desire is calculable for the uses of discipline soon the repetition of guilt, justification, pseudo-scientific theories, superstition, spurious authorities and classifications can be seen as the desperate effort to "normalize" formally the disturbance of a discourse of splitting that violates the rational, enlightened claims of its enunciatory modality.

I think I just put the nail in that coffin.

[Dru]

i favor retroactive abortion for todd, chepe and brody0. and in terms of gun control, those with the guns do the controlling, I think.

[allthumbs]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dru:

i favor retroactive abortion for todd, chepe and brody0. and in terms of gun control, those with the guns do the controlling, I think.

---

Dru, our two countries have radically different views on arms. Americans will start screaming and shooting at the Capitol if someone suggests restricting access to armor-piercing bullets. Canadians are baffled by the existence of water guns.

Of course, there are Canadians with guns - some of whom are militant weapons lovers and rail against the government's stringent gun laws. But eventually they all end up moving to Texas.

Canada is happy to be thought of as bland and mousy. It wants to avoid any similarity to America, the naked-armed redneck sitting on the porch, cleaning its rifles.

trask

[Peter_Puget]

Quote from Zenolith: “A professor of economics at the University of NewHampshire, Marc Herold, has done a far more thorough survey of thepress than I have. He lists location, type of weapon used and sourcesof information. He finds the civilian death toll in Afghanistan up toDecember 10 exceeding 3,500 (he has since raised the figure to 4,000),a sad and startling parallel to the number of victims in the twintowers.”

Oddly, Prof. Herold has in fact lowered his estimate and recent estimates are coming in as low as 700. Some of these estimates are from NG aid organizations.

PP

[Scott_J]

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: sisu suomi ]

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: sisu suomi ]

[Zenolith]

Peter,The 700 estimate referred to was a PARTIAL estimate as is indicated in this AP articlewith yesterday's date; "The bombing hit all the cities and large swaths of countryside, and AP reporters visited many of these areas to gather data on civilian casualties. Their reporting and other reliable counts -- by no means complete -- in the months since then suggest a civilian death toll ranging from 500 to 600".

The same article says that Herold lowered his estimate but it is still not as low as 700. Notably he is the ONLY one who has yet completed an estimate of casualties. His estimate was based on reports of casualties reported in the Western press.

"In some cases, such dispatches became the basis for research. A University of New Hampshire economist, Marc Herold, in December cited news reports in arriving at a total of up to 5,000 civilian dead. He has since revised the figures downward to between 3,100 and 3,800".

Other counts were significantly lower. The Cambridge, Mass.-based Project on Defence Alternatives, a private think tank that studies defence strategies, estimates the number to the end of December at 1,000 to 1,300. The study was based on selected western media and discounted any reports based on Taliban figures.

[Peter_Puget]

Ok I'll say 1,300. BTW that's alot closer to 700 than 3,500. My question is how do we judge the correct amount and does the amount matter at all? Are the high estimates just self serving BS and if not, how can we tell. How do you pick your data points to present? What standard are we holding the numbers up against? A scalar is meaningless in terms of logical argumentation although we may not be able to stop some emotional impact. How does a series of reports showing a number (small by the way I take that as indicative of the restraint of the US)of personal harm help me to decide sanything relative to the the current conflict. I already have no trouble imagining the sadness some must feel and the tragedy of lost life. Without a context I am left feeling that logic is being purposely avoided and my emotions tapped into as a cheap replacement.

[Dwayner]

War sucks...people get killed...it's all a tragedy, but consider this...this has been one conflict where a great, conscious effort has been made to avoid civilian casualties and we do feel sorry for them and apologize when accidents happen. If this had happened 20 or 30 years ago, the unintentional death toll would have been exceedingly greater but our technology has allowed us to be more precise whom we target. Mistakes can and have been made but I think we're doing what has to be done and ultimately the world will be a better and safer place.

[Peter_Puget]

Dwayner – Although my “post modern” post sometime ago was rather smug, my posts today have been absolutely serious. Thanks for eschewing my oblique strategies and plainly stating the truth.

[AlpineK]

I wanna hear what Fairweather has to say about George W's, "Axis of Evil." I mean what the fuck is up with that.

I think its embarrassing to have a president who comes out with that kind of crap. I have way more respect for one that chases white house interns.

[Fairweather]

quote:

---

Originally posted by AlpineK:

I wanna hear what Fairweather has to say about George W's, "

Axis of Evil

." I mean what the fuck is up with that.

I think its embarrassing to have a president who comes out with that kind of crap. I have way more respect for one that chases white house interns.

---

OK....who dug up this thread? I'll second Dwayner's and Peter's comments. When our country went to war with Germany and Japan we TARGETED civilians. (140,000 dead in Dresden in TWO nights!; 100,000 dead in Tokyo; dozens of other cities in Germany, Japan, Italy, France, the Balkans; and of course, Hiroshima and Nagasaki) We did not go after only NAZI/Imperial military and political targets. While I DO question the necessity of some of those actions I must point out the contrast between then and now. It seems to me that we have come a long way in a relatively short span of history, and while the civilian death in Afghanistan is regretable it does seem that our military is sincerely trying to avoid these mishaps and kill only those who truly deserve it.....and yes they DO deserve it.

As for the "Axis of Evil" speech:

North Korea is developing weapons that threaten Alaska and our west coast and they have demonstrated that they will persue this expensive program while perhaps one million of their own starve to death.

Iraq and Saddam spend their oil-for-food money on huge palaces and, of course weapons programs while they complain about not being able to provide that same food and medicine for their children. Invade Iraq? No. Just assinate Saddam! (and then deny it)

Iran: I'll have to disagree with GW on this one...It seems to me he has given ammo to the hard-liners within that country just as they were starting to lose their grip on power. Kathami is popularly elected and moving toward more political freedom. His job is now more difficult.

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: Fairweather ]

[W]

FW,

I agree with you on the Iran issue- Iran has been inching toward closer ties with the US for many years, and in one fell swoop Bush has managed to infuriate the entire populace and restoke years-old anger and hatred. Iranian citizens traditionally have looked favorably upon Americans- my dad traveled to Tehran on business in 1974 and 1975 and spoke repeatedly about how warmly received he was by the Iranians. Obviously a lot has changed since then, but it has been through the hands of a violent minority who have had the country in their grip of power since 1979. I have met numerous Iranian-Americans who say that most Iranian citizens they knew while living there were interested in closer ties with us. Certain elements in the Iranian government are certainly not friendly to the US and US interests, but the Iranians as a whole I believe are interested in ending the bad blood. The threatening elements in Iran could so easily have been addressed and subverted through diplomatic dialogues and overtures; instead, Bush came out with his guns blazing and most Iranians must wonder what the hell for? And also, must be wondering and questioning why the hell they should bother to be friends with the US if that is the way we want to deal with them- through threats and intimidation.Saddam has got to go, but Bush Sr. and Clinton did not have the answer or the wherewithall, and I doubt that Bush Jr. will have it either. Invasion of Iraq I think would be a grave mistake on behalf of the whole world.As for North Korea- the stronger our ties with China and South Korea, the sooner North Korea will move towards becoming a human-run government. The cult of Kim-Il-Jong will crumble when he is living on an island in the world. He is not stupid, and he knows that attacking the US militarily will result in annihilation of his country. It is all a big show of aversion and deterrance. I also believe the Chinese see the necessity of changing their ways- it is just that they have to change in their own time and not through force. Asian culture is very different than the west, and in time I do believe that the Koreans and Chinese will see what is needed and do the right thing- but only if we do our part to help this along without abrasive attitudes in our policies. Meanwhile, isolation, and thereby giving Kim no choice but to reach out to the US in the future is our best strategy, not threats of war and antagonistic rhetoric that only cause them to put on more armor and concentrate on resisting us rather than living with us.