johndavidjr Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I'm a very old & cranky snow dabbler & notice in treking that poles provide better balance than an ice ax. These poles' proliferation may presage a higher rate of slippage sans stopping than previously among climbers. No? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Larson Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retired Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I use adjustabler poles with self arrest grips, shorten em up with one in each hand damn near like tools, the best of both worlds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelawgoddess Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 huh? hiking poles are really great for balance going downhill when you're tired. really great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Trekking poles are no substitute for an ice axe when an ice axe is called for, which will depend on the steepness of the slope, the nature of the snow, and the consequence of a slip. That said, I sometimes use one pole on my down hill side and an axe on my uphill side. I've never used self-arrest poles, so I can't comment, but it sounds like a good idea and certainly some skiers depend on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Heading up hard moderate snow, the guy ahead of me on the rope was using poles while I had my ice ax. I proceded to get a little higher in case he fell. Upon looking back, he berated me for getting so high. He said if "I" fell I would jerk him too hard for him to hold a fall. Duh. If he fell we were in trouble anyway. Especially since there were two ahead of me with poles and sleds. This guy thought he would be able to stop himself with poles and a sled better than I would be able to stop myself with a ice ax and no sled. Needless to say, the trip did not go well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 No ice axe, no ice axe arrest. Â I know one guy with a broken leg because he couldn't arrest with two ski poles. His axe was strapped to his pack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 It all depends on how comfortable you are on snow. If your hesitant about crossing a slope due to conditions/steepness/runout then an ice axe would be a better choice. Â If not poles help you balance and thus move faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubblebutt Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I have found it also depends on the lenght of your ice-axe . I like a short axe and this puts me out of balance on a shallower slope and then adjustable poles feel more in balance but on steeper snow, my short axe feels just right. I now compromise and use a short axe in my up hill hand and a pole in my other. My axe is I think 55 cm which always seems to be way shorter than the standard axes my buddies bring but I think it's better for when you really need it on the steeper slopes. IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I agree with K that "it all depends," but just to argue semantics I'd say it depends on your skill and judgment abilities rather than your "comfort level" (though I suspect I don't disagree with him). What I mean is that I've seen people that overestimate or underestimate their abilities, and I've seen people that don't seem to recognize the difference in seriousness between a 30 degree slope of summer slush and a 30 degree slope of hardpack -- even aside from what the potential consequences of a fall might be. In general, it'd be hard to argue that ski poles are ever safer, but ski poles do allow you to travel faster and more comfortably. Â Snow climbing, perhaps more than rock and ice climbing, is an art form that you master by doing lots of mountain climbing. I've never heard of anybody going up to Paradise and climbing up and down snowbanks to learn how, as you might go to a top-rope area or a local ice fall to practice rock and ice-climbing. Somebody with experience and judgment can savely run back and forth, up and down, and all over a snow slope where somebody else should use an ice axe and maybe even call for a belay. Just don't confuse "comfort" with "competence." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 mattp said: Snow climbing, perhaps more than rock and ice climbing, is an art form that you master by doing lots of mountain climbing. I've never heard of anybody going up to Paradise and climbing up and down snowbanks to learn how, as you might go to a top-rope area or a local ice fall to practice rock and ice-climbing. I believe they are called 'Mounties' and are typically ridiculed on this site for doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg_W Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I've heard some advocate a trekking pole and aluminum strap-on crampons in lieu of an axe. Rationale being that if your feet are solid, you stand less chance of needing to arrest. Debate the weight if you wish, it's probably a wash and comes down to preference and comfort level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I like a pole up to a certain steepness where depending on conditions, I feel I would need an axe to stop myself. I feel confident in my feet and will even switch to crampons and keep using the pole. This allows me to carry a much shorter ice tool which I prefer when it's steep. I really don't like ice tools over 55cm and the pole is coming with me anyway so it helps in more ways than one! The extra balance point is a big energy saver imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinker Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Attitude said: mattp said: Snow climbing, perhaps more than rock and ice climbing, is an art form that you master by doing lots of mountain climbing. I've never heard of anybody going up to Paradise and climbing up and down snowbanks to learn how, as you might go to a top-rope area or a local ice fall to practice rock and ice-climbing. I believe they are called 'Mounties' and are typically ridiculed on this site for doing so. Â Funny you should mention that, as it's exactly what this is (not with the Mounties, though.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Great technique Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Yes, I've climbed little snow walls for fun even though I should probably not admit it because on this bulletin board there was not long ago a hell of a lot of ridicule of a certain cc.comer for doing just that. And I know that people go out and practice the pluge step and step-kicking and the like, so my statement that "I've never heard of anybody going to Paradise to practice climbing up and down snowbanks" was a little sloppy. What I should have said was that "I've never heard of anyboy becoming competent on snow" by practicing it in a "workshop" or on day-trips to Paradise. Â To get competent at snow-travel, I think you have to climb up and down lots of mountains, with and without a pack, with and without proper mountain boots or crampons or ice axe, and in a variety of different snow conditions and settings. It is an art, not a science. That is why I said that I don't really disagree with Alipine K that the decision to use ski poles rather than an axe depends on how you feel, but I suggested that we not confuse confidence with competence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinker Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 mattp said: "I've never heard of anyboy becoming competent on snow" by practicing it in a "workshop" or on day-trips to Paradise. Â To get competent at snow-travel, I think you have to climb up and down lots of mountains, with and without a pack, with and without proper mountain boots or crampons or ice axe, and in a variety of different snow conditions and settings. It is an art, not a science. Â Amen, brother! Â Paradise is as good a place as any for a beginner to start in a fun, beautiful, and safe environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowell_Skoog Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 I often use a short ice axe in one hand and a ski pole in the other. I feel like a snow-spider in this mode--nimble and secure. Â That said, it's interesting to compare modern gear with the Olde Days. In the old days you carried a big, long, heavy ice axe. You used it to walk on level ground, climb steep snow, and fashion belays. Today anybody using a big, long, heavy axe like that would get some strange looks. Â Today we have little, short, lightweight ice axes, great for climbing steep snow. And today, someone who owns one of those little axes is also likely to own ski poles and snow pickets, so they can walk on level ground and fashion belays. Â That's progress, I guess. Â Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 There is a story that Bruce Fairley was given an ice axe on some trip up Mt Deadlysteepsnowclimb, having never used one before, and was told "Here this is an ice axe. If you fall, stick it in". Â What more do you need? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolanr Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 I use poles on fairly steep snow if it's not hard packed and if the runout is safe. A couple weeks ago I went from Glacier Basin to the North Col on Monte Cristo w/out getting my axe out. Once on the Col I used the axe, also descended w/ it. The snow was fairly slushy, any little slide was quickly stopped by my feet. I never felt unsafe while ascending. I agree w/ MattP, travel on snow just takes lots of practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman_Clyde Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 My very first use of an ice axe was the W. ridge couloir on Forbidden in October 1989. The main slope angle was about 45 degrees, but the gully was melted out with big wide moats, the slope into each moat more like 60 or 70. The crest was about 4 feet wide. "What kind of belay do we use?" I asked my partner. "No belay," he said. "Just stick your axe in like this and it'll hold you." Right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Norman_Clyde said: My very first use of an ice axe was the W. ridge couloir ... "Just stick your axe in like this and it'll hold you." Right. Â I bet he WAS right. What was that technique? Piolet ramasse or something like that ? It usually works... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Harris Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Whatever you feel comfortable with. Last week on Shasta the freezing level was low so the snow was nice and hard and there was a Russian guy with no crampons of any sort and trekking poles. He summited. Up Avy Gulch he was able to walk in others footsteps but he was slow going up Misery Hill. Below the Red Banks on the descent the snow was still hard enough no one was glissading. He looked a bit tentative. If he slipped, I do not know how he was going to stop. Once we hit the soft stuff, he blew past everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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