WTF? roped climbers on Rainier w/o pro...

[Dru]

without pro

[oleg]

About to rope or not to rope the old school says: if you can catch yourself - there is no need, if not - to rope. Using protection is up to individual skills, similar to the rock - somebody can runout 5.6, somebody 5.12. The main part is you should be confident in your partner as in yourself, otherwise use protection.

As far catching people on steep slopes - plenty of history. Best example from my experience - we were travercing horizontal ridge, ice about 15 feet wide and one in our party broke crampon, next thing he was going down on 50deg ice slope, after full rope length (40m), my partner caught him with axe pick (not even shaft). although using some extra help as the third person jumped on top of him. The point is if you use correct self arresting technique, you need only a small extra pull from rope to stop. Back in Russia in 80's we had to pass tests to climb mountains, one of it was to selfarrest on 35-40 deg pure ice. If you can do that, you can selfarrest on any snow slope.

Oleg.

[David_Parker]

oleg said:

one of it was to selfarrest on 35-40 deg pure ice.

 

Depends how far and how fast you've gone before you are in correct position to apply ice tool to slope. Even this is potentially lethal, depending on runout zone.

[oleg]

David_Parker said:

oleg said:

one of it was to selfarrest on 35-40 deg pure ice.

 

Depends how far and how fast you've gone before you are in correct position to apply ice tool to slope. Even this is potentially lethal, depending on runout zone.

 

The whole idea of selfarrest is to do it immediately, not to gain speed. As I recall, we had to start head first on the back and stop within 30 feet.

Oleg.

[iain]

once again I believe it is time for me to reintroduce my concept clothing made out of climbing skins for skis. Instant self-arrest!

[AlpineK]

iain said:

once again I believe it is time for me to reintroduce my concept clothing made out of climbing skins for skis. Instant self-arrest!

 

That's the best idea on this whole thread

[snafflehound]

Quote:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dwayner said:

Quote:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Stefan said:

I'm not sure, but wasn't that famous self arrest on K2 where everybody was roped up and one person saved them from a self arrest? I believe no pro was placed then.

 

I guess they were all experienced folk.

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

It seems to me that the famous incident on K-2 with Pete Schoening, Dee Molenaar, etc. involved a quickly placed boot-axe belay which saved the day for the whole big rope-team.

 

 

David_Parker said:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe it was none other than local climber Dee Molenaar that made the save and you can read about it in "K2, The Savage Mountain" There were two ropes, but they became entwined and there was a certain amount of luck that they all lived. Also at the time they were coming DOWN with Art Gilkeys dead body. This is quite a different scenario than a fall while going up.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

D_P If you're going to refer folks to the book perhaps you should read it first. It was the most famous belay in climbing history. Pete caught 6 people by belaying offhis axe shoved into the snow behind a frozen in boulder. 5 of the 6 fell from 150 to 300 ft on a 45dg slope. There were 3 ropes not including Shoenings. Art Gilkey was very much alive through the whole thing.

I guess it's off topic but I'd like to see Pete's axe returned to him. He left it at a trailhead nd when he went back to get it , it was gone. Some one's got it. A request for any info about it was in Signpost for a while. Perhaps with the mass communication of the internet now it may be possible to find it. Just a thought. I'd hate to see it wind up in someones tool shed.

 

 

[Fairweather]

Ropegun2002 said:

Body Boi Nazi girl you crack me up. You were whining like a school girl (trask - can you picture it?) trying to get over the schrund. Yea I'm the guy that left over an hour after you and passed you on our way to the summit.

 

Your opening statement was pretty bold. But being from Colorado I'll forgive you and not going to waste any more of my breath.

 

Thanks Ropegun. My reply to Bodynazi's post was intended to address his self-perceived manliness, not necessarily the premise of his argument. Too bad his "partner" was so out of shape. Maybe he should have offered him a rope!

[gslater]

Coincidentally, I was flipping through Andy Selters' book on glacier travel earlier today, and came across this paragraph, which deals exactly with this issue. Here I quote:

 

"glacier travelers on an icy slope need to recognize when they cannot depend on ice-ax arrest to stop a fall. Too often, teams roped together for crevasses progress up onto an icy slope where an unanchored rope only ensures that one falling climber will pull off other teammates. It's critical to recognize and prepare for this transition from a snowbridge hazard to a slope hazard. Ice-ax arrest can be counted on to stop falls on moderate slopes with favorable snow conditions, but few people fall on this type of ground. Steeper, icier slopes where falls are more likely require additional backup."

 

Pretty much says it all.

[Ursa_Eagle]

oleg said:

The main part is you should be confident in your partner as in yourself, otherwise use protection.

 

[cj001f]

oleg said:

David_Parker said:

oleg said:

one of it was to selfarrest on 35-40 deg pure ice.

 

Depends how far and how fast you've gone before you are in correct position to apply ice tool to slope. Even this is potentially lethal, depending on runout zone.

 

The whole idea of selfarrest is to do it immediately, not to gain speed. As I recall, we had to start head first on the back and stop within 30 feet.

Oleg.

 

10meters? On Pure BLUE ice? I call BS

[klenke]

Pretty much says it all.

And when all the rhetoric around the campfire had finally died down

And the crows at their listening posts in the rocky boughs finally blinked one last time

When the embers of discussion one by one dimmed into the ashes of history

Only then did this tire old thread get up and stagger into the corner of the clearing

To tuck itself into the warm folds of its -30 degree Marmot Mountain Works sleeping bag

And dream of deep bootsteps up the next morn's icy slopes.

Yes, once again, Thumb Rock was a peaceful place.

And all climbed and lived happily ever after...unroped to the summit of Columbia Crest.

THE END.

[Careless_Ev]

Careless Ev thinks roping up on steep, moderate terrain with huge exposure and no pro is for sissies.

 

But then bitching self-righteously about other climbers' actions also makes you a sissy.

 

How did Liberty Ridge become a classic climbing route for beginning mountaineers?

 

Sounds like Accidents in North American Mountaineering will have plenty to comment on in the years to come.

[gapertimmy]

Careless_Ev said:

Careless Ev thinks roping up on steep, moderate terrain with huge exposure and no pro is for sissies.

 

Timmy thinks talking in the third person is so DFA

[Careless_Ev]

The orginal Careless Ev always spoke in the third person. It's historically accurate.

[David_Parker]

snafflehound said:

Quote:

D_P If you're going to refer folks to the book perhaps you should read it first. It was the most famous belay in climbing history. Pete caught 6 people by belaying offhis axe shoved into the snow behind a frozen in boulder. 5 of the 6 fell from 150 to 300 ft on a 45dg slope. There were 3 ropes not including Shoenings. Art Gilkey was very much alive through the whole thing.

SH: yeah, you probably have it better than I. It has been a long time since I read it and I made the post at work and the book is at home. Sorry! But I do believe Art was basically a "body" at the time and and they were lowering him and it was during this time when they were all getting straightened out that an avalanche swept him away, which probably saved the entire team by not having to deal with him anymore in a raging storm. Did I get that right. Great story and I think I will re-read it. All those guys were real heroes in my mind.

[Dru]

Careless_Ev said:

How did Liberty Ridge become a classic climbing route for beginning mountaineers?

 

Ever since people realized that its fucking easy, not some hardman epic suffer fest? Alpine Grade AD, come on, that's not the be all and end all of mountaineering... it's been skiied... get over it, it IS a beginner bumbly route.

[Careless_Ev]

Oh yeah, how could we forget the most recent ski descent on the route? Or the events of last summer? Below is just ONE of the more recent accidents on that easy walk up called Liberty Ridge.

 

Text from A.N.A.M.

 

Fall on steep ice while skiing, unroped travel, Liberty Ridge (Perrson SAR)

 

A climber at Thumb Rock high camp on the Liberty Ridge called Mount Rainier National Park with a cell phone on the evening of May 24th to report that his climbing partner was missing after a skiing accident on route. David Perrson, 31, was telemarking Liberty Ridge from the top when he lost an edge and cartwheeled out of control, disappearing down the Willis Wall. Perrson fell from the 12,500-foot level near the Black Pyramid, a 50-60 degree icy section of the route.

 

Rangers flew reconnaissance the next morning and identified a body at the 9,800-foot level on the Carbon Glacier. The body lay in the avalanche debris cone of Thermogensis, a climbing route notorious for ice and rock avalanches. Shortly after spotting Perrson, a tremendous avalanche of ice ran the route and partially covered the body. Recovery operations were postponed due to the increasing daytime temperatures and obvious objective hazards. Plans were then drawn for a predawn recovery next morning before the sun warmed the ice cliffs above.

 

On May 26th, a helicopter pilot inserted rangers at sunrise near the accident site however no sign of Perrson could be found. Another pilot flew avalanche reconnaissance while two other rangers provided safety and support for the recovery team. An hour of search was needed to locate the body. It had been pushed a substantial distance down-slope and reburied by successive avalanches the previous day. There was no chance that Perrson survived the fall and moved under his own power. The body was retrieved without incident and flown off the mountain.

[Sloth_Man]

Well if the skis stayed on his feet all the way down isn't that a successful ski descent? And part of it down the Willis Wall to boot? First descent whoo hoo!!

 

Considering how anal the whole MRNP thing is I'm surprised they let people ski LR.

[Careless_Ev]

Sloth_Man said:

Considering how anal the whole MRNP thing is I'm surprised they let people ski LR.

Don't suggest this too loudly.

[DougGeller]

The answer to the question will not be found in the rampant namecalling I've seen here, but rather in careful consideration of the situation you find yourself in on a particular route. I tend to rope up on glaciers and moderate snow slopes where I think there is an excellent chance a slip or fall can be held if there is minimal slack in the rope between climbers. I don't like to rope up if the result is "don't fall or we'll all go" situation. Roping up without a fixed belay point on steep ground is just not a good idea particularly in well-frozen conditions (ideal for cramponing) or super soft snow that an ice axe is not much help in peforming a self-arrest. I would say (and I'm generalizing) the practice of always roping up is more prevalent in guided groups or groups with a leader and the rest are basically non-climbers, and this led to the deaths of several people on Hood and Rainier last year but these are not isolated incidents.