Adventures in group dynamics

[Attitude]

Adventures in

[Dru]

i dont want to climb with anyone who has a clown as an avatar picture

clowns are scary

[iain]

so's hello kitty™ you freak

[Dru]

iain said:

so's hello kitty™ you freak

 

no, EVERYONE LOVES HELLO KITTY it says so on her website!

[pope]

MisterE said:

dryad said:

Q: Have you ever wanted to kill your climbing partner?

A: If you have ever climbed with Craig or Rich, the answer must be a resounding "YES!!"

Q: Have you ever had a psycho from hell in your party?

A: If you have ever climbed with Snickers, the answer must be...

Q: Have you ever experienced any horrific failure in group dynamics?

A: I lived it with my family for, oh, say, 17 YEARS!!!

Q: What happened?

A: I turned to alcohol and drugs to deaden the impact

Q: and more importantly, how did you deal with the situation?

A: Therapy.

 

Snickers! Snickers and I were gettin' drunk in a bar outside Joshua Tree. He obviously had the hots for the bimbo servin' up the sauce, so he consulted Pope for a pick-em-up line. Observing her numerous piercings, I suggested, "Your ears, your nose, your tongue.....let's see, are we missing anything?" Of course, I suggested that at that point, he should direct his eyes toward her furry nether regions. And he did. It failed, but he impressed me with his audacity.

[catbirdseat]

Okay, I'll bite. I once agreed to take a friend from work up Rainier. No matter that he was almost completely deaf and had no climbing experience. I got him set up with prussiks and practiced at climbing the rope with them. He seemed very strong, as he had done the STP Bike Ride several times. The guy wanted to take his father in law along who was a climbing instructor in Phoenix.

 

Turns out the father in law had no glacier experience to speak of and was 69 years old. He was in reasonable shape for his age, but he had a bum ankle he didn't tell me about. His equipment was incredibly ancient. He had a frame pack from the 1960's that threw him off balance and forged crampons from the 1940's.

 

In addition to the two fellows mentioned above we had my buddy Jim and his friend Mack who each had been up Rainier several times. We camped at Glacier Basin to better acclimate to the altitude and then went on up to Camp Schurman. My friend, the bicyclist, who's name was Danny, was absolutely terrified on the little rock and snow scramble down the prow. He clutched at every rock all the way down. I told him, "don't do that, they are all loose. Use your ice axe."

 

Somehow we made it to camp in one piece and since I knew I had a slow group, decided to depart for the summit extra early. So we were on our way at 12:30 am. We had no gone 30 minutes when Danny's cheap Eveready headlamp quit on him. He had no choice but to continue in the dark.

 

At 11,000ft Mack who was the ultramarathon runner and strongest climber developed a crushing headache and insisted in returning to camp solo. I couldn't pursuade him otherwise (he made it okay). So the remaining four of us continued on one rope.

 

Danny had taken his hearing aids out because he, "didn't want to ruin them from the sweat". Now it was impossible to communicate with him. He could read lips, but not in the dark and not at the distance of 1/4 rope length. I wanted him to follow the lead of Jim who was in front of him and leading the rope. When Jim traversed, Danny would instead always take the fall line straight up the slope. It was fine that he was strong enough, but he risked falling into a crevasse, because he didn't have a clue. I wanted him in Jim's foot prints, but had no way to tell him. ARRRGGGG!

 

Everybody had passed us by 13,000 ft and many had turned around, because by now the wind was howling. Our pace was so slow that I wasn't generating enough body heat to stay warm. We didn't top out until noon where the wind was so strong that you couldn't stand up. No parties had made it up from Muir that day, as apparently the wind was even stronger on that side of the mountain.

 

So we get out pictures and now the real epic began. I wasn't too worried about the snow bridges, as it had been a huge snow year and the bridges were all in fine shape. The problem was that these guys couldn't go plunge step. Our down hill pace was almost as slow as our up hill pace. It should only have taken about two hours to get down. But instead it took 6 hours to return just to Camp Schurman. I was leading the rope and Danny kept stopping unannounced for no good reason. He was a stout guy and would just pull me off my feet. I'd turn around and glare at him menacingly. We'd get going again and he'd pull me off my feet again. Turns out his father in law was having trouble with his ankle. The trouble was propagated down the rope to me or something like that. After I had been spun around and pulled off my feet for the hundredth time, I'd had enough. I was absolutely at my wits end. I was going nuts like I had never before or since. I unroped and ran madly down the glacier for a 1,000 feet until I came to an obvious snow bridge. Then I came to my senses and sat down to wait for the rope team to catch up. It took them about 45 minutes to do what I had just done in 15 minutes. I tied in again, this time with Jim in front to take his share of the punishment and me at the end.

 

The rest of the way was slow and uneventful. Everyone was so bushed that we decided to spend another night (our third out) at Camp Schurman. Mack, was there waiting for us and was feeling somewhat better. After exchanging pleasantries he set off for White River and his car.

 

The next day we hiked out and I was embarrassed about losing it, especially in front of Jim and I apologised.

 

After that I swore that I would not go up a big mountain with people I didn't know. Last year I took two friends from work up Baker, but this time, I took them for a "test drive" on Pilchuck, where they practiced ice axe arrest and kicking steps, and especially plunge stepping. I could see they had the skills, and they did fine on the climb.

[Sphinx]

Wow, nice story CBS. Musta been frustrating. Just wondering, why didn't you just turn around? Seems like that would have been a better decision. Not criticizing, just curious.

 

Oh, and BTW, has anybody read Jon Waterman's In the Shadow of Denali ? He relates a story like these, and it is fucking hilarious.

[dryad]

OK folks, you're right, I should have spilled my own story before soliciting others. I apologize. It's just really long (ask catbird - it took me an hour to tell it last night) and I had a busy day at work yesterday and didn't have a chance to write it up. I promise I will eventually.

 

Work sucks. Too much to do, not enough time to spray!

[catbirdseat]

Sphinx said:

Wow, nice story CBS. Musta been frustrating. Just wondering, why didn't you just turn around? Seems like that would have been a better decision. Not criticizing, just curious.

 

The reason we didn't turn around is that everyone on the trip was very motivated to make it to the top. I asked everyone several times if they wanted to turn around and they were adamant that they wanted to go for it, especially Wally, the older fellow. While I was concerned about descending in the heat of the afternoon, I felt the conditions were quite safe.

 

What took so long on the ascent was excessively long breaks. We took two or three that were at least 30 minutes. The wind was right on the nose at about 30-40 kts and that slowed the pace, considerably. As I said, the most frustrating part was going down. I like to go fast when the conditions are good for plunge stepping as they were on that occasion. These guys were very carefully stepping into the boot track of the guy in front instead of just locking knees and making their own track. It is incredibly tedious and painful to watch someone who doesn't know how to plunge step.

[EWolfe]

pope said:

MisterE said:

dryad said:

Q: Have you ever wanted to kill your climbing partner?

A: If you have ever climbed with Craig or Rich, the answer must be a resounding "YES!!"

Q: Have you ever had a psycho from hell in your party?

A: If you have ever climbed with Snickers, the answer must be...

Q: Have you ever experienced any horrific failure in group dynamics?

A: I lived it with my family for, oh, say, 17 YEARS!!!

Q: What happened?

A: I turned to alcohol and drugs to deaden the impact

Q: and more importantly, how did you deal with the situation?

A: Therapy.

 

Snickers! Snickers and I were gettin' drunk in a bar outside Joshua Tree. He obviously had the hots for the bimbo servin' up the sauce, so he consulted Pope for a pick-em-up line. Observing her numerous piercings, I suggested, "Your ears, your nose, your tongue.....let's see, are we missing anything?" Of course, I suggested that at that point, he should direct his eyes toward her furry nether regions. And he did. It failed, but he impressed me with his audacity.

 

[dryad]

OK here's my story. Lots of drama, not much action. Pretty boring really.

 

Short version:

 

I went on a backpacking trip on the Chelan Lakeshore Trail with persons P, G, A, and C (the organizer). P&G were really slow. A was a PSYCHO BITCH FROM HELL. Much drama ensued. A left the group. A rejoined. More drama ensued. A got booted out of the group. More drama ensued. A is gone forever. THE END.

 

Background: Before the trip, I knew C and knew she was cool but didn't know the other people.

 

Long version:

 

This past weekend I went on a backpacking trip on the Chelan Lakeshore Trail with persons P, G, A, and C (the organizer). From the beginning, P is struggling with boot problems and going painfully slow because she's lugging a pack full of tons of useless crap that's bigger than she is. G is also going painfully slow because he's prone to heat exhaustion and can't deal with the heat. A, who turns out to be a PSYCHO BITCH FROM HELL is already beginning to get bitchy because the pace is so slow. C is doing her best to be positive, make sure nobody has a coronary, and not get too stressed over the fact that the pace is so slow and we have 11 miles to cover. Myself, I'm just mellowing out and enjoying the scenery for the time being. Eventually I decide I'm really not getting any exercise whatsoever as things are going so I trade packs with P. After she gets my nice light pack, she's moving right along. Eventually, about 3 miles short of our destination, G, who had been looking like's he's about to have a coronary ever since we left the trailhead, decides he can go no further and needs to crash. So he camps out there with the intension of getting up really early to catch up with us the next day. The rest of us continue along, the pace having picked up greatly after dropping G. A is getting more and more pissy and abusive because it's getting late and it's past her dinner time. We keep telling her to have a snack, but she insists she must wait for dinner. Why? Beats the shit out of me. So eventually we arrive at out destination. The nearest water source is 1/4 mile away. Since I'm the only one with any energy left at this point, I empty my pack, take everyone's water containers, and go with C to the river for a major filter fest. We're hoping that during this time, the other two are setting up camp or at least doing something useful. After C and I fill all the containers, I pile 'em in my pack (Mt. Si flashbacks here) and hoof it back to camp. When we arrive, we find that not much happened while we were away. A stove is perched on a rock, one tent is pitched in a really half-assed manner, P is sitting looking tired, and A is sitting looking surly (as usual). At this point it's almost dark. Eventually after much futzing, camp gets set up and the stove gets going. A at this point insists that she doesn't want any hot water and she'll just eat granola bars for dinner. Huh? Why couldn't she eat her granola bars before? Who the hell knows? Whatever. I get some hot water for my tasty couscous concoction, C and P cook their food, and eventually all is finished and we go to bed. In the morning, I wake up, A wakes up, C wakes up a little later, but P is out cold. Eventually C wakes up P, A and myself are ready to go, C is on her way to being ready, but P won't be ready for another hour according to C's estimation, so C tells A and myself that we can hike out ahead and wait at this one scenic overlook. So A and myself head out, then hang out at the overlook and wait, and wait, and wait, all the while A is bitching and I'm doing my best to ignore her. 1:20 passes and P and C finally arrive, followed shortly by G. They need a rest so A and myself go out ahead again with the plan to secure a campsite when we finally arrive in Stehekin. I don't want to deal with A's bitching so I hike out ahead and get a couple hours of nice high-quality hiking, looking at the scenery, going as fast as I want, being in the zone, and feeling good all around. Eventually I get to the outskirts of Stehekin and the trail junctions so I decide to wait for A. Shouldn't have bothered, thinking back on it. So finally she arrives, cursing loudly that C isn't there to show us to the campsite and blah blah blah. I calmly say that she’s an intelligent adult and we are fully capable of figuring it out (ok, so I lied, but it was for a good cause). So we wander into Stehekin, I ask a couple of people where the campground is, find it, go to the visitor center, talk to the ranger, find out that the campground is all full, as is the ugly overflow area. A is about to blow a head gasket at this point, bitches at the ranger, and storms off to take a shower. Good riddance. I then go back, apologize to the ranger on A's behalf, express my embarrassment at being there, explain the situation, and get a reservation at a campground 4 miles down the road. There is a shuttle bus that goes there, and it's quite easy to hitch a ride according to the nice ranger lady. I then go for a little walk to check out Stehekin. On my way back to the visitor center, and about 2.5 hrs after I arrived in town, C and P stagger in. I run into them, explain the situation, and they are understandably unhappy because P is about to drop and they really had their hearts set on that campground that turned out to be full. So they head over towards the boat dock to wait for the bus. I return to the visitor center where A is waiting and fuming, report what just happened, and she starts yelling at me for no reason and heads down to join C and P. I follow shortly thereafter. Along the way I stop at the bike rental shop, put on my most desperate pathetic face, and ask if there's any chance the nice lady there could give us a ride up the valley in their van. She says she would but has to man the shop til 5pm so we won't gain anything over waiting for the bus, but she confirmed what the ranger said about the ease of hitching a ride. Then I realize I forgot my water bottle, go back to get it at the visitor center, start walking towards where the other folks are, and only then do I see G stagger into town. I greet him and lead him to where the others are. Lucky I needed to get my bottle or he would have staggered in with no clue where to go. Finally everyone is in one place waiting for the bus. A is bitching as usual, basically tells us all to go to hell, she wants nothing more to do with us, and she'll spend the night in the lodge and catch the early boat. In the meantime, I'm running around wheeling and dealing to get us a ride up the valley, and I succeed in short order. The 4 remaining of us hop in the back of this random guy's pickup. The ride up there is great. The guy needs to pick up some hay at a place right next door to the bakery so we get a bakery stop in addition to the ride. Score! Then he drops us off at the campground next to a prime campsite next to the river. So it seems like all is fine and we have a relaxing afternoon until a couple hours later guess who shows up... PSYCHO BITCH FROM HELL! Turns out she decided she didn't want to spend the money for a room at the lodge or for the early boat. Well tough shit we think. She already told us all to go to hell and nobody wants anything to do with her so we have a little Survivor-style confab and decide to "vote her off the island", so to speak. So then assorted histrionics and drama ensue, not surprisingly, and she walks off in a huff to find another area to camp. All is calm for the next couple of hours until it gets dark, and the leader C expresses concern that A may not have put her food in a bear box, and wants to check up on A. We may hate her guts but still don't want her eaten by a bear (well, I wouldn't mind, but that's me). So C, P, and myself go over to check up on her (G has been out cold for a long time at this point). Turns out she didn't put away her food and is lying in some random patch of dirt that's not even a real campsite. C insists that A put away her food and go to a real campsite for her own safety. More histrionics and drama and yelling ensue and last a long long time and A storms off out of the campground to hike back to Stehekin, apparently. C runs after her because A's headlamp is on the verge of going out, and C doesn't want A to be wandering around in the middle of the night to be eaten by bears (I of course wouldn't mind, but that's me). More histrionics, more drama, more yelling, but C can't convince A to return to camp and A wanders off into the night. About 5 min later a car goes by and we hope they picked A up and brought her somewhere. (Turns out that was in fact the case). The next morning, G doesn't want to risk having to hike back to Stehekin so he hops on the bus. I decide to hitch a ride, and C and P join me. We begin hiking and get picked up 2 minutes later by another guy in a pickup. He has to stop a mile short of town so we walk the rest of the way. 2 minutes later we run into these 2 guys that P and C met on the trail. P flirts shamelessly with one of them, D. C is eyeing the other one, T. Both are way too old for me. After a while we arrive in town and find G, as well as A at the boat dock. More drama and histrionics. I mind my own business. Eventually A gets on the early boat and is gone forever. Good riddance. Then the remaining 4 of us go have lunch and the waitress who has heard of our story (as well as the whole rest of that town probably) feels sorry for us and gives us free minestrone soup. Then we mill around for a while longer until the boat comes, and we finally head home. Then on the boat P and C meet their men again. P continues to flirt shamelessly and eventually finds out D is married, so P is sad. C had better luck with T, who at the end suggests that she come visit him at a restaurant where he is the chef. Good for C. THE END.

 

[lummox]

more proof that (effective group IQ) = (average IQ)/(number in the group)

 

[vegetablebelay]

I think you need to point that finger at yourself, darlin...

[dryad]

I was just doing my best not to get caught in the crossfire. Had in mind a simple backpacking trip, but found myself in the midst of a psychological case study field experiment. It was pretty scary.

Edited May 28, 2003 by dryad

[BURP]

A as in Allison?

[chucK]

Allright!! Great stories guys n gals... although perhaps you could have added more easily recallable psuedonyms in your story Dryad, like sleepy, grumpy, slowy, etc...

 

One thing I noticed in these stories is that the psycho bitch from hell and Catbirdseat were getting all bent out of shape about people slowing them down. That happens to me sometimes and here are a few of my ideas on the subject.

 

Having someone catch up to you at another spot doesn't really change the amount of waiting, just where you wait, but does isolate you from your comrades. In some cases this might be good, but if you really want to be isolated from your comrades (who are slowing you down) why aren't you just heading out solo?

 

You can do poking and prodding for a little while, but often it becomes apparent that you are just annoying the slow (ahem, more laid back) members of the group and not really going to speed them up to your liking anyway. At that point you need to just resign yourself and go with the flow. Catbirdseat's trip where he knowingly brought newbies up to Mt. Rainier and then got pissed because they weren't as fast as him does seem a bit silly. Try to figure out something to do to amuse yourself, like taking off your pack and bouldering hiking up to lookout points not on the trail etc. Dryad's strategy of switching packs is a good idea because that gives you more of a workout AND speeds the party. If you are still worrying about the pace, make damn sure that your side amusements don't make the others end up waiting on you, or give them an excuse to be even slower.

 

Finally, I'm sure everyone can remember back to some time when THEY were the slow one, and how it would have felt to be belittled.

 

When you are forced together with really annoying people it can sometimes take the edge off a little when you get to the point where you've totally lost respect for them. Because then you can just laugh at them instead of getting upset. Just make damn sure you're not going to need to ask them for something later on (like a ride home), or that they won't kill you in your sleep or something if you goof on them to their face.

[chucK]

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot... What does "histrionics" mean? Maybe one of you guys that likes to look stuff up in online dictionaries and cut and paste it to the board could do that for me?

[Fence_Sitter]

girls, girls, girls...

[rbw1966]

Fence_Sitter said:

girls, girls, girls...

 

Motley Crue rocks!

[sobo]

dramatic representations, behaviors and/or speech done purely for effect. goes along with gesticulations. Irate Italians are pretty good at it,as an example...

[Off_White]

chucK said:

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot... What does "histrionics" mean? Maybe one of you guys that likes to look stuff up in online dictionaries and cut and paste it to the board could do that for me?

 

over-the-top theatricality, or pitching a hissy fit

[Alex]

dryad said:

OK here's my story. THE END.

 

Dryad, you have alot of patience. Mine would have run out in about 5 minutes. Darwinism is your friend in these situations: if things are obviously not working out, then its time to jet and let the bears, pumas, and rednecks take care of business. fun read!

[Formaldehead]

I hope you didn't pay for this shit. I would have left A alone so that the bears could have torn her to shreds like the fetid skank that she is, that way you, C, G, & P could have a funny ending to a shitty trip.

[chelle]

Formaldehead said:

I hope you didn't pay for this shit. I would have left A alone so that the bears could have torn her to shreds like the fetid skank that she is, that way you, C, G, & P could have a funny ending to a shitty trip.

 

She behaved like a little girl who decided that no one was going to have any fun while she was around, but don't you think having her get eaten by a bear is a bit harsh?

 

Dryad - can't remember from your story whether anyone asked her what her f'ing problem was...

[catbirdseat]

A had a Type A personality. How do you deal with a person like that? When a person let's their feelings of angle have full rein, they can get totally out of control. It may be that at some point early in the trip, a few words might have helped, but once the emotions rose beyond a certain level, there was nothing anybody could have said that would have made any difference. The source of this person's anger was an inability to deal with things beyond her control, and perhaps stubborness, and a lack of flexibility. It really does remind me of children. Things I might have said: "Yeah, it sucks but there isn't anything we can do about it. Hey, look at that eagle over there."

 

"I know you'd rather have a hot meal right now, but there's no water here. I can tell you need some carbos, so eat a candy bar now. You'll feel a whole lot better."