In defense of nailing Green Dragon

[wdietsch]

danielpatricksmith said:

Am I the only one that finds irony in the fact that Lambone, ehmmic’s most vociferous critic, made a (rather large) judgement error on Glacier Peak that eventually precipitated the use of a cell phone and involved a large scale rescue effort?

 

no, your not

[COL._Von_Spanker]

Necronomicon said:

 

He was on the cover of Rock and Ice.........

 

 

 

Oh, well, then, hey, wow, gee, whoa, huh, must be a GOOD CLIMBER.

 

 

 

c'mon spill it, which rock and Ice?

Edited April 25, 2003 by COL._Von_Spanker

[lummox]

COL._Von_Spanker said:

c'mon spill it, which rock and Ice?

i did and i wasnt believed. like ima dan - or sumpin? it dont matter anyhow. climbing is still hard after all these years. it aint what you did but rahter what your dreams are. know what im sayin. ana i woulda probably nailed the drag on too.

[specialed]

Lummox is Chris Sharma!!!

[lummox]

specialed said:

Lummox is Chris Sharma!!!

naw dude. im the chick wearing the bikini top while bouldering. just forgot my name is all.

[specialed]

lummox said:

specialed said:

Lummox is Chris Sharma!!!

naw dude. im the chick wearing the bikini top while bouldering. just forgot my name is all.

 

So you like, wanna go climbing some time honey?

 

[snoboy]

lummox said:

naw dude. im the chick wearing the bikini top while bouldering. just forgot my name is all.

 

dru is gonna be so happy when he hears this!

 

[pope]

Sloth_Man said:

A couple of pins in GD so what's the fricken deal.

 

When you 'oh my god it's a pinner' heads can assure me that you will never reproduce, drive cars, poop in the forest, put bolts on topropable routes, clean cracks, or any number of other high impact activities then I'll take you seriously until then you're full of it and need to get a life.

 

Shit you act as if making that one section of rock just a little easier is somehow the end of the world. Me thinks maybe you've all got to find something else to climb and get over it.

 

Pins are not an issue; crowding, bolts, trails, and parking are the issues. You don't like impact take it up with the mounties and the hordes of boulderers, or better yet stay home and climb in the gym.

 

High five, my friend! Pitons didn't pussify climbing, bolts did. And they is ugly....they put the "ugh" in ugly! And they attract pussies in powers of ten to what was once a manly sport.

[Lambone]

In another thread ehmmic received a lot of flak for placing a couple of pins on Green Dragon. Ignoring the hyperbole and posturing that characterized many of the posts, it should be pointed out that she did not use the pins for upward progress, but as anchors to facilitate a safe retreat.

 

That is bullshit dan, I have her rap anchor in my gear room (and intend to return it). It consists of a cam and two large nuts, some biners and a sling. Pins were not any part of that anchor, they were all placed below it.

 

Not that it matters, but there is a major difference between ehmmics epic and ours, she wen't up in the rain with the intention of climbing the route even if it required nailing. We wen't up on a bluebird day and got caught by a storm that came in durning the middle of the night in a matter of hours. We were soaked and cold at 10,000ft for three nights, 14 miles from the trailhead. I fail to see the corelation.

 

The point of that thread that I started was the NEWBIES SHOULDN'T BRING PINS UP ON CLASSIC CLEAN AID ROUTES...no more no less...

 

I didn't speculate on ehmmics experience, or epic as it may be. I adressed the pins and the pins alone. She came out and told everybody her story, it was her choice.

 

I stick to my opinion, people who nail clean routes are lame, or at least selfish.... If you can't get up it with clean gear then back off, your obviously in over your head.

 

Sloth-Man doesn't seem to think nailing clean routes is a big deal. I do,...he has his opinion, I have mine.

 

I don't really give a crap what others think anyway...just had to call your BS. Cheers

[Sphinx]

Um, I don't know either of you, but I believe that your assertion, Mr. Lambert, is incorrect. Ehmmic went up to try a climb in the rain. As an emergency backup, she took a few pins. She got overcommitted, and pulled out her emergency gear: the pins.

 

You , on the other hand, went to climb Glacier Peak, gambling on weather, and failed to bring emergency gear (ie rain gear). Like Ehmmic, you got into an overcommitted situation, but weren't prepared to retreat. She was. Yes, you didn't have too many options. But dying on Glacier Peak in a storm is no different from dying from a fall cragging. Dead is dead.

 

Let me say it again: The correlation is that you were both in an emergency situation that would have been preventable. But she had the gear to save her own ass, while you didn't.

Ironic, too, how now you say "get over it", which you failed to do while flaming Ehmmic. It's called being a hypocrite. God, you've got some issues. Go ahead and MODERATE if I hurt your feelings. Heh, too bad this is the Climbers' Board. Maybe you can BAN me.

 

Too bad about your epic, now everyone has material to flame you. So get off the high horse, and try to be somewhat friendly once in a while.

[Lambone]

Your opinion is fine, but I still call your bullshit...

 

There are at least three new fixed pins on that pitch. All succesively below the bail anchor she placed. These pins were not placed as a last resort to save a life...gimme a fuckin break. From what I could see, the pins were hammered to make progress up the pitch, not get down.

A rap anchor was not made from pitons, but from large cams and nuts.

 

All I am saying is if it comes to placing pins, why not just suck it up, admit you are not ready, and back off and down climb the clean peices you had just placed, and leave the pitch for those who enjoy clean climbing for what it is?

 

Having a string of heads blow up on el cap is one thing, this is an entirely different situation, and yes...it does bother me. So be it.

 

And by the way, I don't moderate this forum...and I didn't say "get over it." New pins on clean routes will allways bother me (same as new bolts on old routes), and I never plan to get over it.

 

I have nothing to hide about what happened on Glacier peak, if you want the facts, just ask...instead of making up random fictions like "no rain gear." People will think what they wan't and it doesn't bother me 'cause it's in the past and the three of us are better climbers for it.

[Lambone]

Back on track: I have noticed that Lambone tends to think he's God. After all, he has climbed such noted routes as the North Face of Chair, Icy BC, and has even climbed in Yosemite!! PLUS he's a MODERATOR, so he must feel pretty important.

 

Right about now, he'll come online, start spewing, and tell me to STFU, etc, etc, etc.

 

Actually, I was out climbing all day...sorry you weren't. But I''m glad you had fun taking your agressions out on my avatar. "Why don't you try being nice for once..."

 

Oh, and the routes that make me GOD are much cooler than those you mentioned...

[Sphinx]

"........." I'd provide a rebuttal, but it's not worth it. Bye bye, asshole.

[Lambone]

Well thats not very sporting.

 

"g'night george"..."g'night Ralph"...

[allthumbs]

Lambone said:

All I am saying is if it comes to placing pins, why not just suck it up, admit you are not ready, and back off and down climb the clean peices you had just placed, and leave the pitch for those who enjoy clean climbing for what it is?

I couldn't agree more Bone. Stay the fuck off till you're able.

[specialed]

danielpatricksmith said:

Am I the only one that finds irony in the fact that Lambone, ehmmic’s most vociferous critic, made a (rather large) judgement error on Glacier Peak that eventually precipitated the use of a cell phone and involved a large scale rescue effort?

 

At least Lambone made it to the top of his route!!

[Yos]

I think your definition of epic and mine are different, Sphinx. Ehmmic was not in an emergency situation- psychological factors caused her to bail. The point that is being made is that beginning aid climbers do not have the experience to judge when a pin is necessary, thus should refrain from taking them up routes such as GD so the character of the route is preserved for future climbers. The only flaming going on is against those who justify nailing a clean route, not against Ehmmic. She made a mistake and nothing but a few chips of rock are lost, big whoop. But I disagree with using life and death exaggerations as a means to justify nailing multiple pins into a popular trade route.

[ScottP]

trask said:

I couldn't agree more Bone. Stay the fuck off till you're able.

 

The problem I have with this argument is how will you know you're able until you have tested your abilities under the conditions that you need to test them to know that you are now able to do what you're supposed to stay the fuck off of until you're able?

 

"Stay the fuck off the freeway until you are able to drive on the freeway."

 

 

ehmmic jumped on a route that would test her abilities, got spanked and used tools to see her through that a worthy guidebook advised as applicable ("We only brought them along because of the comment in the guidebook.")

 

My advice to her is to continue pushing her personal limits so she can therefore extend them, and consider Lambone's suggestion of downaiding out of tight spots to a)avoid the loss of gear and b)add that skill to her bag of tricks because it's a useful one.

 

PS

 

"At least Lambone made it to the top of his route!!"

=

"neener, neener" by proxy

 

[Lambone]

I see your point Scott, and to an extent...you're right. People shouldn't stay away from routes that push their limits. They sould leave the pins at home when climbing clean trade routes....and I'm not trying to harp on ehmmic here, I'm just speaking generaly.

 

It is just like trying a sport climb at your limit. If you can't do it, your lower off a leaver biner. You don't bring a chisel and chip the rock down to your level. For me, I feel the same way about aid climbing.

 

The problem is the grey area between a used to be nail-up route, and now clean route. Who decides what category a route falls into? That's a tough one. Usualy people refer to guide books for this type of information. Sky Valley says people may need pins on this pitch of the route. Maybe so...maybe not, it clearly depends on the skill and equipment that the climber posseses. I find it hard to believe that someone can afford a wall rack and aid gear, including pitons, but not some of the specialized clean climbing equipment. So then it comes down to the skills to use it. For that you do what most climbers do, you work up the grades and pay your dues on C2 before you try a C3. Or you try it, without pins, and if you get stopped you go down and let your partner try. I don't know...maybe these are just the standards I hold myself to and I'm trying to impose them on others...maybe so, but so what...why not?

[ScottP]

I'm assuming she got on a C2+ because she felt ready for it because of previous experiences. She took the pins because a prevailing authority (the guidebook) said they might be needed.

 

"I don't know...maybe these are just the standards I hold myself to and I'm trying to impose them on others...maybe so, but so what...why not?"

 

Perhaps reordered thinking i.e. education via advice versus imposing of ethics/morals/standards on others is in order. There's nothing wrong with providing beta/help/advice to those with less experience when the purpose is to help them be a better all around climber.

 

Methinks some reading this thread found "I agree, somebody either just doesn't give a shit about clean climbing, or just ignorant to the area and route their on." to be a little heavy-handed in light of you knowing who it was before you posted.

 

Just my pair of coppers.

 

 

[Lambone]

You say that as if you haven't imposed your own ethics and morals...?

 

I think I offer plenty of free advice "education" on this web site. Some people don't seem to like that much either. It's a tough croud...

[ScottP]

Lambone said:

You say that as if you haven't imposed your own ethics and morals...?

 

(snip)

Don't be throwing spin on this. I am not taking the high ground here and these two threads certainly aren't about me.

 

You got a bunch of grief from others in this thread for speaking your mind.

You then asked the question "why not?", and I tried to diplomatically say that the method used may have been a little heavy-handed and perhaps a more subtle approach could get the same message across without ruffling feathers.

 

You took the high ground and turned this into a soap box rather than just giving her back her anchor and mentioning your concerns directly to her in private.

 

[Sphinx]

ScottP said:

Lambone said:

You say that as if you haven't imposed your own ethics and morals...?

 

(snip)

Don't be throwing spin on this. I am not taking the high ground here and these two threads certainly aren't about me.

 

You got a bunch of grief from others in this thread for speaking your mind.

You then asked the question "why not?", and I tried to diplomatically say that the method used may have been a little heavy-handed and perhaps a more subtle approach could get the same message across without ruffling feathers.

 

You took the high ground and turned this into a soap box rather than just giving her back her anchor and mentioning your concerns directly to her in private.

 

Amen, bro.

[Lambone]

Scott,

 

Just for the sake of defending myself...

 

Before I posted anything about pins on GD I sent Ehmmic a private email offering to return her anchor, and telling her that I was bothered about the new pins on the route. She didn't mention the pins in her reply to me, so I posted the thread.

 

Some people like to voice their opinions about war, politics, SUV's, horsecock...whatever on this site. I don't, climbing topics interest me, and I feel strongly about this one. I am sorry that ehmmics name got drug through this argument, but don't blame me. I introdeced my opinion withinin the context of a local climbing route (sure it was a troll, stirring up a debate). She brought her own name into the flames.

 

This is just getting stupid anyway. Say what you wan't...it's done.

[crusty_climber]

I am sorry that ehmmics name got drug through this argument, but don't blame me.

 

Seems a little shallow of a comment considering all things from an outsider.

 

I don't think I'd go up to climb GD with pins and a hammer so maybe I'd find myself in a different situation or maybe not. That's not saying I'm any better. I could find myself in a sketch situation too and do the same thing if I had them. Who knows?

 

How much do you wanna bet they have learned something about aid climbing? It's good to hear that nobody was hurt. There are not many rules in climbing really... There are just a lot of people trying to create and enforce their own methods, purposes and morals on others. Wether or not you believe in them is up to you.

 

Just because a couple of pins were smashed in the rock doesn't ruin my day or experience to go on the route.

 

I'm sure they thought about their actions before nailing which are a lot less costly than injury and rescue. It seems like a small comparison than to a rescue cost on Rainier or the impacts related to something similar including rescuers' time and energy and exposure to possible dangers to rescuing some poeple for instance.

 

The final impression I get is that they\she rescued herself and did fine.