Jens Posted April 22, 2003 Posted April 22, 2003 It was very cool of you to open up about the pins. I agree with what has been said about "if you leave the hammer, you'll find a way". _______ As a sidenote, hard clean aid is definitely trickier on wet stone- and that is while placing a wide variety of types of tricks and toys. Also body postitioning and body scumming to make that next placement is harder. _______________ Also it seems like long standing fixed pins on free routes are disappearing at a ferocious pace. It's a bummer to have to get more pumped at a spot where you've clipped a fixed pin on lots of previous outings. Well enough whining from me. ------- Good discussions. Quote
Matt Posted April 22, 2003 Posted April 22, 2003 I don't really care what you think anyway! Flame on! Tell 'em Ehmmic! Quote
COL._Von_Spanker Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 Hey Lambone, I must not have gotten the memo about you being promoted to chestbeating ethics police, can you re-send it? So now that Crazie Jamie sent Artifice clean I'll be happy to watch you climb it clean... it's just some easy hook moves right? Quote
Bronco Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 COL._Von_Spanker said: Hey Lambone, I must not have gotten the memo about you being promoted to chestbeating ethics police, can you re-send it? So now that Crazie Jamie sent Artifice clean I'll be happy to watch you climb it clean... it's just some easy hook moves right? Right on Spanker! Quote
Lambone Posted April 23, 2003 Author Posted April 23, 2003 What the hell are you talking about Spanker... I'm not policing anybodies cheastbeating (what ever the hell that means), I'm calling people out for pounding pins on a route that goes clean easily. If you don't have the right gear or skills to climb a well established clean trade route without pounding pins...STAY OFF THE FUCKING ROUTE UNTIL YOU DO. This isn't my law...it is common knowledge in todays aid-climbing scene. Green Drag-on and Town Crier are two beautiful classic routes that are perfct for people practicing their clean aid skills for bigger things in Squamish and Yosemite, two of the best aid routes in Washington. They are not mountaineering routes, they are on a roadside crag, 30 minutes up from the car. And if gumbies go up there with pins in "assault" mode they are just going to fuck it up for everyone. I'm just thinking about sustainability here, preserving our resources for future generations. If you don't think nailing is a big deal, go climb the Shield Headwall and see if you have the same attitude afterward. Hell, didn't you just get back from the Prow??? How would you feel if people were still nailing that route (which they are! were you?)... I'm sorry if my rant seems harsh. But this shit bothers me more than anything. Sure everyone deserves the right to learn and practice, but with that right comesthe responsibility of respecting the character of the route. This responsibility is multiplied exponetialy on popular classic routes! Maybe I'm am being a rock cop...but i'm suprised you arn't. Afterall, I don't even plan on climbing at index after June 15th. It's your crag, do what you wan't with it...I'm out. Quote
specialed Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 I agree with Lambone for the first time ever. Sorry to say it Michelle, but you aint experienced enough to be making judgement calls on whether or not placing pins is ok or not. I'm not either though, because: a. I haven't been climbing at Index for that long and haven't established any routes there, and b. I'm not a hardcore aid climber. So unless you are well-respected hardman/woman, don't push the envelope by doing anything controversial and then opening up debate about it. Quote
Lambone Posted April 23, 2003 Author Posted April 23, 2003 And one more thing... I knew they were ehmmic's pins before I started this thread, but I didn't acuse her of anything. I wasn't trying to implicate any individual, my argument adressed all climbers who visit any clean aid routes. She volounteered the information herself. Quote
Szyjakowski Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 specialed said: I agree with Lambone for the first time ever. Sorry to say it Michelle, but you aint experienced enough to be making judgement calls on whether or not placing pins is ok or not. I'm not either though, because: a. I haven't been climbing at Index for that long and haven't established any routes there, and b. I'm not a hardcore aid climber. So unless you are well-respected hardman/woman, don't push the envelope by doing anything controversial and then opening up debate about it. omfg, I agree with Specialed! word emup DOOD! also, why were pitons on the harness, when their was knowledge of the clean"AID" standards for the "root"??!? I bet she is trying to make it free climbable...if thats the case...good ....HEHEHeehehe... I have never climbed or seen this route but, as I said before, I agree, don't pound the metal when it needs no hammer.... Quote
chelle Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 specialed said: I agree with Lambone for the first time ever. Sorry to say it Michelle, but you aint experienced enough to be making judgement calls on whether or not placing pins is ok or not. I'm not either though, because: a. I haven't been climbing at Index for that long and haven't established any routes there, and b. I'm not a hardcore aid climber. So unless you are well-respected hardman/woman, don't push the envelope by doing anything controversial and then opening up debate about it. Never claimed to be a hardwoman. Just trying to push myself and get up a mutipitch aid climb. Also I didn't start a debate about it I simply stepped forward and said yeah I did it. I didn't chest beat about it, didn't advocate it, but if the route is a clean only route, that should be reflected in the guidebook. From my research on the route my understanding was that it is okay to nail on the second pitch. Am I experienced enough to make a call on placing a pin? I don't know. The one thing I do know is that I am experienced enough to make a judgement call about my own safety while on lead and on how to properly protect myself if I am bailing off something I got schooled on. Maybe you don't agree on the value of life, but my life is more valuable than a climbing ethic or a $100 of gear (which is what was left up there when I bailed.) So here's the whole story of what happened to hopefully end the debate. I didn't have to say a damn thing and I still don't care what you Monday morning hardmen climbers (aid or not) think. You weren't there and you may have even done something similar under the circumstances. I had cam hooks and did several camhook moves in a row where I could find placements for them between either cam/nut placements or the fixed pins that were already there. I took a fall off a cam hook that popped and the hook I was previously on caught my fall. I felt comfortable enough at that point that I continued up. I put in one pin when the camhooks I had didn't fit. Then when I decided to bail I placed another pin to back up one that was there. It shifted and flexed and so I moved over to set an anchor in a crack to the right. I didn't think to clean that second pin before moving over there to see if I could get an anchor in and then had trouble getting back to it. At that point I just wanted down. I was running out of daylight and tired of the intensity of the route. I lowered cleaning the rest of my gear as I went down. Enough discussion. You've all said your piece. It's over. Peace out! Quote
COL._Von_Spanker Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 Lambone said: What the hell are you talking about Spanker... I'm not policing anybodies cheastbeating (what ever the hell that means), I'm calling people out for pounding pins on a route that goes clean easily. If you don't have the right gear or skills to climb a well established clean trade route without pounding pins...STAY OFF THE FUCKING ROUTE UNTIL YOU DO. This isn't my law...it is common knowledge in todays aid-climbing scene. Green Drag-on and Town Crier are two beautiful classic routes that are perfct for people practicing their clean aid skills for bigger things in Squamish and Yosemite, two of the best aid routes in Washington. They are not mountaineering routes, they are on a roadside crag, 30 minutes up from the car. And if gumbies go up there with pins in "assault" mode they are just going to fuck it up for everyone. I'm just thinking about sustainability here, preserving our resources for future generations. If you don't think nailing is a big deal, go climb the Shield Headwall and see if you have the same attitude afterward. Hell, didn't you just get back from the Prow??? How would you feel if people were still nailing that route (which they are! were you?)... I'm sorry if my rant seems harsh. But this shit bothers me more than anything. Sure everyone deserves the right to learn and practice, but with that right comesthe responsibility of respecting the character of the route. This responsibility is multiplied exponetialy on popular classic routes! Maybe I'm am being a rock cop...but i'm suprised you arn't. Afterall, I don't even plan on climbing at index after June 15th. It's your crag, do what you wan't with it...I'm out. I guess it went over your head. I'm calling you a chestbeater and an rock ethics policeman, I never said anything about whether pounding the pins was right or wrong so fuck off. Quote
specialed Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 COL._Von_Spanker said: I'm calling you a chestbeater and an rock ethics policeman, Who on CC.com isn't? Quote
Bug Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 specialed said: COL._Von_Spanker said: I'm calling you a chestbeater and an rock ethics policeman, Call me whatever you want. I haven't taken a pin to Index in 15 years. Green drag on and Town Crier are easy aid routes. Please don't scar them any more than they already are. There are lots of examples in Yosemite of routes that are scarred beyond recognition. This isn't chest beating or meant to be negative. There are lots of folks on this site that can tell you what the standards for any given route are. Who on CC.com isn't? Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 Trask gracefully sticks to the middle ground. Quote
TimL Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 (edited) ehmmic - right on for having the juice to fess up. Thats proud in and of itself. I learned aid climbing at Index myself and got spanked many times, mostly solo. Sketchy down aiding and funk of that type got me down but they were clean climbs so as a rule I never thought about bring pins. What I learned is if you don't know how to swim without waterwings, don't jump in the deep end of the pool. Edited April 23, 2003 by TimL Quote
Lambone Posted April 23, 2003 Author Posted April 23, 2003 You know what, I'm not out...I'm more heated now than ever. Ehmmic, I'm glad you made it down safe, that is what really matters. Spanker, If you have something intelegent to say, then say it. If you have an argument to make, then make it. Other wise shut the fuck up. Don't come out and insult me just because I am the easy guy to pick on. I put my opinions out there for others to read. Some may agree with them, some may disagree...that's fine. But just calling me names doesn't cut the mustard man...I know you are just watching your friends back, but iInever insulted her. Yes, I think she was in the wrong, but no...I don't think she is some sort of bad person. For once I disagree with the effortlessly cool one, Matt P. I don't think rain vailidates the need to place pitons on a clean route, in Wa, BC, Yosemite or otherwise. You knew it was going to be wet before you started...and relyed on pins as the easy way out. Lets just get something straight here...placing pitons on an A1 route is not some special advanced skill. It is the easy alternative to actual skill...it is beating the rock in submission in replacement for lack of clean gear placement technique. At index or otherwise. Do you use Leave-no-trace method in the wilderness? Building a fire is a skill...if it is raining and you are cold, is that an excuse to build one and leave a scar on the ground? This is the same thing. Sure if your in Alaska..who gives a shit. But your not...your in washington. And I equate nailing pins on GD with building fires in the Enchantments. If everyone did it, others down the road are going to have to live with the consequences. The same goes for many things on a much larger global scale... Why does this bother me so much. Because it's happening all over the place. Aid climbing is trendy, many people can afford racks of pitons, but do not know when it is appropriote to use them. Nailing pitons is what all the "hardcorps" climbers do on the gnarly Captain routes right...so it must be ok... And about Artafice, I've never had any desire to climb it, and don't plan to. I prefer to push my limits with air below me, not 1 pitch off the deck. So, crazy Jamie did it clean, good for him, so what...it is not worth it to me. And if I did get on it and had to nail, i would at least own up to my lack of skills, or balls, and not blame it on the rain. Quote
COL._Von_Spanker Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 Lambone said: You know what, I'm not out...I'm more heated now than ever. Ahhh yes.. My work here is done. And I don't have anything intelligent to say, but thanks for asking. If you have anything to add that you haven't already said adnaseum feel free to do so. And spare me the leave no trace lecture, but I know some cub scout that would be happy to listen. Quote
Dr_Flash_Amazing Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 Sayeth Lambone: "...Aid climbing is trendy..." Huh? Where? With whom? Quote
Winter Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 where's that old thread where lambone goes off on the ktk for their staunch ethics when you need it? that was some funny shit. Quote
iain Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 good thread - this is what should be debated, not suvs and war and stuff. Quote
Lambone Posted April 23, 2003 Author Posted April 23, 2003 Too bad there isn't more of a debate going on though. I'd love for someone to disagree with me... Quote
erik Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 Lambone said: Too bad there isn't more of a debate going on though. I'd love for someone to disagree with me... \ bone whats yours and han's speed wrecord on green dragon? Quote
COL._Von_Spanker Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 I never disagreed with you... That's the funny part and why I started talking shit, even when everyone agrees you keep on goin...and going...and going... Quote
j_b Posted April 23, 2003 Posted April 23, 2003 "validating" "sustainability", you some kind of commie or what? next time, i won't even step out of my suv to bang in pins (and i'll empty my ashtray out the window too!) Quote
Lambone Posted April 23, 2003 Author Posted April 23, 2003 bone whats yours and han's speed wrecord on green dragon? ummm...we'll if you subtract all the ciggerette time it's about dark to dark... I know you think it's funny that I've been on the route four times. But hey, some people run laps on Godzilla, I'd rather do and aid route over and over. Either way it's all in the name of training. GD is good fun all around, and I'd do it again...but probly not next time. Anyway, are you going to give my goddamn KB's back or am I going to have to buy new ones...punk ass bitch Quote
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