COL._Von_Spanker Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 Yeah, it's not like those conditions suddenly moved in on you or were totally unexpected. But whatever, I'd pound a pin if I had to save my ass(I just wouldn''t tell anyone) Quote
fleblebleb Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 Ya heading up a no-hammer route without thinking about the conditions is ill-conceived. It's not like a couple of pins matter now, but it would if suddenly nailing Index clean routes in a storm were perceived to be cool. Shame on you Collins, not because you did it but because it is a bad precedent. If I had made the same mistake and had to pound a pin to get down I would keep my mouth shut. Quote
mattp Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 Fleb and Spanker might be read to imply that it is not OK to pound a pin -- except that it is OK to do so if nobody knows about it. I know that is not what they stated, but it is not far from what they implied. Sure, most Index regulars will probably agree that bcollins shouldn't have taken pins on that climb and if he thought he was going to need them because it was cold and wet out, he probably should have opted for a different climb (one that he could climb in the generally accepted manner); but I bet Pope is right that two months from now, nobody will probably even be able to tell where he used the pins. So the biggest harm that could come from this incident, in my view, would be for folks to conclude (once again) that they cannot ever reveal something they are not proud of on cc.com because they will only get shat upon by a bunch of idiots, or that they can't ever discuss clean climbing without being called a hypocrite or worse. If these kinds of discussions are to have any value at all on this board, we have to be able to discuss real-life situations in an honest manner. Quote
rr666 Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 bcollins said: To Lamb and the other unknowing purists........... I'm interested in how many of you have actually LED a pitch in full winter conditions? There is an immense difference between climbing in the rain vs. what we experienced on 3/9/03. It was 30 degrees, with frozen rain and snow. Icewater was pouring down not just the route, but the whole wall from approx. 30 inches of wet, new snow deposited hours earlier. Placing a pin doesn't sound too bad now does it. -Rob Well with that argument, maybe I should go air climb Godzilla, Thin Fingers or City Park during the next storm. Hell, I will bring my whole rack of pins, because you never know when I might need one, especailly on City Park. Hell maybe after a few storms, City Park will go free at 5.11. If a route goes clean, it should stay that way, no matter what the weather. If the weather requires pins, then don't climb, simple as that!! Quote
slaphappy Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 I'm not advocating pins on the Lime Lizard, not in the summer to be sure. I'm just saying that whatever you do to save your ass in a snow storm while LEADING a climb is perhaps more justifiable. Never thought I would say this but I agree with Pope's above statement. (although his attempts at comparing it to rap-bolting are, as usual , pathetic) I would have no problem tappin in a pin if conditions and terrain warrant it, although I highly doubt a hammer would be part of my arsenal on a clean trade route at a crag. He put in a pin or two on the easy section. Hmmm... I wonder about that. If we are truly talking about pitch 1 of Green Drag-on and my memory is correct, the freeclimbing crux is at about 2/3 height after the angle eases back and immediately below the 4th class finish. Since the 11- crux is laying back small pin scars on a slabby seam, additional scarring would dramatically affect the freeclimbing and the ease of placing protection. I challenge you to show me the pin scar Collins left up there. If you can, chances are it's now a good nut placement. More than likely, the pin scars left by one guy having a snowy adventure aren't even evident. Can you say the same for rap bolting? Multiple "snowy adventures" = permanently altered and unrepairable climbing. Correctly placed fixed hardware = permanent unaltered climbing and removable/repairable damage. Your right Pope, it's not the "same" thing. Quote
chucK Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 mattp said: Fleb and Spanker might be read to imply that it is not OK to pound a pin -- except that it is OK to do so if nobody knows about it. I know that is not what they stated, but it is not far from what they implied. Sure, most Index regulars will probably agree that bcollins shouldn't have taken pins on that climb and if he thought he was going to need them because it was cold and wet out, he probably should have opted for a different climb (one that he could climb in the generally accepted manner); but I bet Pope is right that two months from now, nobody will probably even be able to tell where he used the pins. So the biggest harm that could come from this incident, in my view, would be for folks to conclude (once again) that they cannot ever reveal something they are not proud of on cc.com because they will only get shat upon by a bunch of idiots, or that they can't ever discuss clean climbing without being called a hypocrite or worse. If these kinds of discussions are to have any value at all on this board, we have to be able to discuss real-life situations in an honest manner. Really Mattp, I am having a hard time figuring out what you are upset about here. I reread it just to make sure I didn't miss something, but I still found that this was a relatively genteel discussion of a hot-button issue on a board that usually sees reasonable posts "shat upon by a bunch of idiots". It appears to me that a real-life situation has been discussed in an honest (and relatively polite) manner. Quote
mattp Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 ChucK. Don't misconstrue me -- I AM NOT UPSET, OK?????? I only indicated that I thought Pope's diversion with his anti-bolting rant was off the track, and that nobody should think they have to keep it to theirself if, in the middle of a snowstorm or in any other situation they feel compelled to use a piton on a "clean" climb. It's all about keeping the discussion real, and as "on track" as possible -- and I believe I suggested that I thought this has INDEED been a thoughtful discussion. I AM NOT PISSED. OK???? grrrrr Quote
specialed Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 Green Drag-On is a CRAG climb, regardless of what the weather is doing at the time, not a full-on winter adventure as BCollins would like to think. Like RR666 says, what if everyone pounded pins into crag climbs just because it was snowing? If BCollins wants to pound pins and climb in winter conditions, he should have headed up Mt. Index or Mt. Snoqualmie or something. Pope may be right that BCollins's 1 ascent isn't going to change the climb, but what if lots of people find it OK to repeat his actions? Its good to have genteel discussions about this and I respect Pope for being an old-school bad ass, but truthfully I find his and BCollins's logic on this issue to be very self-contradicting and flawed Quote
Bronco Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 Sounds like a good sufferfest to me. Wish I had been up there instead of hikin in slush accross the valley. I personally don't really care that they may have gotten in over their heads and pounded a couple of pins to get out of a jam. Better that than hearing about another "hiker" rescue on King 5. PING PING PING! Quote
Lambone Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 To Lamb and the other unknowing purists........... I'm interested in how many of you have actually LED a pitch in full winter conditions? There is an immense difference between climbing in the rain vs. what we experienced on 3/9/03. It was 30 degrees, with frozen rain and snow. Icewater was pouring down not just the route, but the whole wall from approx. 30 inches of wet, new snow deposited hours earlier. Placing a pin doesn't sound too bad now does it. -Rob b, I'm not upset about this. Just offering my opinion, please don't take it personaly. Where the pin was pounded makes a big difference. If it was in the junk rock at the top of the pitch then that is'nt so bad. But if it was in the flaring crack, then it was bogus. Personaly I would have fixed a nut and bailed off, before nailiing. But those are just standars I impose in myself... Quote
Lambone Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 Other things to consider b, is that stuff does fall from the upper wall, especialy after snow and ice build up. With 30 inches of new snow, it may not have been the samrtest place to be...just a thought. Quote
specialed Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 Bronco said: Sounds like a good sufferfest to me. Wish I had been up there instead of hikin in slush accross the valley. I personally don't really care that they may have gotten in over their heads and pounded a couple of pins to get out of a jam. Better that than hearing about another "hiker" rescue on King 5. PING PING PING! Don't put yourself in that position in the first place if local ethics dictate NO PINS!!! Its the same as quitting your job, giving away all your money and belongings, and then when you get hungry stealing food from the grocery store. When you get caught, defending yourself by saying well I had to do it because I was starving. Quote
TimL Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 Knowingly and willingly putting yourself in an epic situation in which you will have to break the established and agreed upon norms of the day (not nailing on clean aid routes) is not an excuse for destroying routes. The UTW routes are of a crag nature and I would consider it pure rock climbing. ALthough rock climbing is part of mountaineering, I think the upper town wall, although the approach is cruel for a crag, are pure rock climbing routes. Mountaineering ethics need not apply. I learned how to aid in the know and rain at Index years ago in full on conditions without placing pins. From time to time I'll go out and aid solo in nasty conditions because its fun to test your skills in a more or less controlled environment. Still, thats no excuse to destroy clean routes by pounding pins. Earlier this winter a friend and I tried Green Dragon in full on conditions like bcollins described. I came to same spot twenty feet above my last peice on wet slippery slab and twenty feet to the anchors. I yelled down to my my belayer decribed the situation and his next lead in a waterfall and we decided that its not worth it. So I down climbed and aided down the route. At that time the route was above our acceptable level of risk and we wern't going to nail in order to make it safer. Bcollins, I applaud you for going out in nasty conditions and trying to get up GD. Thats cool. Whats not cool is nailing on a clean routes. Quote
Bronco Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 yeah, I see your point but, your analogy is a little extreme. Quote
specialed Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 Bronco said: yeah, I see your point but, your analogy is a little extreme. I know but I'm not creative enough to think of a better analogy Quote
TimL Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 Stuff comes down around Index in good weather. Yet alone bad. Actually, I've been aiding up City Park in winter just after a storm when everything wall thawing out. Much to my disbelief a friggin huge slide of snow, ice, mud and rock came from the left huge corner in the quarry. The debris fanned out as far as thin fingers and sent projectiles as far as the train tracks. Pretty scary stuff. Quote
Lambone Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 What really matters is that your buddy made it down ok. I'd say that was worth a pin. But I agree, if you knew pins would be the best option from the begininng you should have chosen either an easier, or harder route. DC's guide book says that some people still nail a few pins on GD, and you can easily tell where this happens. I just think that it's unescesary. But perhaps if I was in your parners shoes clawing through the snow looking at a big fall, I would have done the same... Quote
Off_White Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 It's all just trainin' for the bloody greater ranges, no need ter get yor knickers in a twist Quote
specialed Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 Off_White said: It's all just trainin' for the bloody greater ranges, no need ter get yor knickers in a twist Then why do we consider it wrong to nail Godzilla, Thin Fingers, or City Park then? After all we might be nailing in the big ranges, and that would be practice. Quote
G-spotter Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 hello so far i have been climbing and training at this index town wall many times during the winter the thin cracks there are good for practicing for the leashlees ascents at alpine and in the competitions however the protection is not so good sometimes where there is only crack for tools and points i have improved several of these sections with bolts to allow mixed-climbing of these passages with protection opportunities i do not think that nailing should be done to damage the crack as it might make the climb easier. better to put a strong bolt in smooth rock glacis type, than damage crack and make it more easy by using piton. so far the hardest route i am sending leashress this winter has been ironhorse Quote
fleblebleb Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 Because it changes the rock, yada. Matt, you're right, Spanker and I didn't quite write what we intended (or at least I didn't - but I'm pretty sure the same goes for Geoff). I think posting about having to nail a clean route because I realized I couldn't get down otherwise, because I misjudged the conditions, is kind of like posting about having to get a helicopter rescue. The tone ought to be more like, here's my mistake (heading up in a storm) and here are the results (nailing a clean route) so don't do what I did. I didn't mean to chew Collins out at all - unfortunately the nature of the medium is to eliminate a lot of the subtle signals that may be all that distinguishes a friendly conversation from a hostile argument. Hey, to you Collins, at least you didn't have to have your frozen ass dragged off the cliff, and you didn't make the evening news either. Brew to you too Matt Quote
chucK Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 Off_White said: It's all just trainin' for the bloody greater ranges, no need ter get yor knickers in a twist trollerific God I hate that condescending crap Its the same as quitting your job, giving away all your money and belongings, and then when you get hungry stealing food from the grocery store and shitting on the counter. When you get caught, defending yourself by saying well I was just training for robbing banks (and they don't have bathrooms in banks)!!! Quote
Peter_Puget Posted March 13, 2003 Posted March 13, 2003 A guy writes a quick TR mentions he pounds some pins and soon it devolves into typical cc.com twistedness. The long and the short of it is that if a route is not dependent on hammered pro then you generally shouldn’t plan on bringing a hammer regardless of the conditions. That these guys placed a few pins doesn’t seem like such a big deal. Some of the replies might have been a bit harsh, but given the history of this BBS they were not by any means over the top. Are these guys lame jerks? I don’t know. Maybe yes. Maybe no. If they went up the route intending to place pins for non-emergency use, I say they were in error AND should have chosen a different route. If they brought pins for last resort use in case they got into trouble and placed them because they were in trouble, I say smart planning. I know if I was climbing the Zodiac I would have a couple pins and a hammer in my haulbag – just in case. Lamebone - did you bring a hammer when you did the Zodiac? Where escape is easy, it is always lame to bring a hammer on clean route that you are aiding whether it uis normally considered a free route or an aid route. Pope, glad to see you haven’t let good taste, logic or a sense of decorum change your style. PP Quote
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