none_dup1 Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 Hi all, Sorry if this tpoic has been covered previously. I did a search and found nada. Here goes: What are your/our thoughts on use of the belay/rappel loop for it’s intended purpose? *** Reasons to use the belay loop (as I see them) *** - Safer belaying (less chance of cross loading the biner, easier to check the biner to see it’s locked) - Harness design (BD and REI have warning labels on their new harnesses, telling you to use the belay loop. Harness makers would not add a loop if it were not safe or ever had a chance of failing) - More convenient (easier to put the rope into and take the rope out of the belay/rap loop, harness is less cluttered) - Super strong (from 15-30 Kn, or 3300 to 6600 lbs, depending on manufacturer. FYI, a new 11 mm rope can be broken with 4,500- 5,500 lbs of force, depending on the knot used in the rope.) - Safer rappels (Less chance on a rappel of getting clothing sucked into rap device, as rap device is farther away from your body; a lot easier to use an autoblock as a backup) *** Reasons NOT to use the belay loop *** “I have a lame BD Alpine Bod harness and it doesn’t have a loop.” (Get a new harness) “I learned on an Alpine Bod harness, bought a better harness with a belay loop, and still belay and rap the way I used to.” (Learn better, more modern climbing methods.) “I don’t trust that lil’ skinny thing. Two points are redundant, one is not.” (Understand the design concepts and strength ratings of your equipment and trust it. If you don’t trust gear rated to 30 kn, you may wish to take up croquet.) Yes, I am clearly biased. But I know there are a LOT of you out there who belay from the “hard points” of your harness and ignore the belay loops. Can folks from both sides of the discussion add to these points above? If you are a climbing veteran who does not use the belay loop, can you tell us why not? Here’s to a lively discussion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Clarke Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 There are a few documented cases where the harness makers hold the harness user liable for not using the rappel/belay loop during a harness failure. I too learned on a BD Alpine Bod harness and had to accept a new way. Now I trad/gear climb, alpine climb, sport, rap all with the belay loop. Trust it with my life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpine_Tom Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Ropegun2001: There are a few documented cases where the harness makers hold the harness user liable for not using the rappel/belay loop during a harness failure. Is that documentation available? Online, like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 "Belay loop is twice as strong as anything else on the harness"- Arcteryx wisdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakioawa Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 THe belay loop is the strongest part of the harness. And since the belay loop runs through both the waist and leg loops you get some redundnacy. You can't accidently run the biner through just one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 Thanks for asking this question nuts-n-screws! Ive often wondered this myself. As someone who is employed facilitating ropes courses we NEVER use ONLY the belay loop, except for the climbing tower at one of the places (the other goes underneath the belay loop and thru everything). If we are using two lines out of the harness, one goes thru the belay loop, the other thru everything (incl. the belay loop). When I started climbing myself I often questioned the strength of the loop itself. and what about redundancy? I often go thru both the legs and the belay loop (does that make sense?). It sounds like most people are confident with just using th belay loop. The more I learn about the strength of things, the more amazed I am...as if its almost hard to believe. Does anyone know if there has EVER been an accident because of somones belay loop popping out of the seams without any forseen wear and tear on it? carolyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 Ropegun 2001, You wrote: "There are a few documented cases where the harness makers hold the harness user liable for not using the rappel/belay loop during a harness failure." Could you please explain and tell me where I can get the documentation? How can a harness maker hold a user liable? Do you mean the harness maker denied liability for an accident? Just curious.... I only use the belay loop and have heard many manufacturers state that the designa nd material dictate that the belaty loop is the only prescribed use. (BD, Trango, Metolious, & Petzl) my two cents..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitseeker Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 Call me old fashion if you like, but I'm gonna stick with BD Bod w/out the belay loop. It's a manner of preference, really. I do believe that the belay loop is plenty strong, but it makes me sleep better knowing I'm through both. One less single point of failure is always a good thing. Also, it's worth mentioning that I've seen countless climbers actually tie into the belay loop on both TR and lead. This isn't the recommended practice (I don't think), so here's a case where having a belay loop on harnesses potentially isn't a good thing. Then again, these people ought to read the damn instructions anyway! [This message has been edited by summitseeker (edited 10-23-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 This is kind of off thread, but I recently retired my Chouinard Bod harness in favor of a new, die cut foam, super adjustable rig. The webbing is much thinner and narrower and the buckle much smaller on the new harness. The old Bod harness just seems so much more durable plus the webbing is made of polypropelene which is more resistant to chemical and UV degradation. I doubt I will get as many years service from this new harness. I do like the belay loop though, it is much easier to use when at a hanging belay. The old harness bunched up making it difficult to open the carabiner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haireball Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 Disclaimer: I've never owned a harness with a belay loop, so my contribution to this discussion is obviously skewed. Opinion: I attach my belay device NOT to the harness, but to the closed rope ring created by my tie-in through the harness. With the rope tied into the anchor, my harness is isolated from the belay chain - thus the harness is not loaded when the belay comes under load. The only time my harness is loaded is on rappel, or toproping from the ground when I may not be tied into the rope. In those cases, the predictable loads are quite low - again making this debate irrelevant for me. As far as the liability issue is concerned, I think the point is that IF you anchor the belay device to the harness, then the belay ring is the Only place to do it. IF you anchor a belay device to ANY OTHER point on the harness, and it fails, THEN YOURE FUCKED (duh) In the late eighties, the AMGA took the position that guides' belays should be made from the rope ring, and not from any point on the harness. With improvements in harness materials and design, this may have changed. Any certified guides out there who can give the current recommendation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 Just a note about the redundancy of belay loops. I can't be positive that this is true for all harness, but on most there are actually two belay loops. They are sewn together for a neater setup, but take a close look sometime and you will probably be able to see what I'm talking about. Therefore, belaying off the belay loop actually is still redundant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbb Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 I have recently taken up belaying from the loop because it is WAY easier to get the biner open, and I know that the biner wont be cross loaded with a fall. If you don't like the "one point" thing (which I tend to subscribe to as well), tie a small loop of 7/16"s webbing through the same path as the loop. That way you've got the 20+kN of the loop, and a good 15kN in a sling. I climbed with my harness rigged this way for quite a while, and didn't find that it got in the way. Just make sure to tie it a little smaller than the belay loop so that it will fit inside. The only problem I've noticed with rappelling from the belay loop is that it turns my tuber the wrong direction. i.e. towards/away from me, instead of left/right. This is kind of minor though.. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 I use a hip belay all the time. Beckey told me once that he liked to use them a lot too. If it worked for him it's good enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrosaurus Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 ... and dulfersitz rappel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 ... and Converse Allstar type hightops for rock pitches or maybe felt overboots if you need extra friction like on Waddington summit chimneys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott_J Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 Isn't the gentleman's belay still standard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_w Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 I don't like to use the belay loop. I put my biner through the leg loops and the waist portion (parallel to the belay loop). I know to check the biner each time to make sure it isn't cross loaded. If you have the ATC and biner in the belay loop, it tends to twiet my ATC just enough to be annonyiny (rope is vertical in the ATC and not horizontal). Also having it in the harness gives me an extra 4-6 inches of rope each pull while belaying. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbb Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 you can check the biner and make sure it is strait up and down, but that doesn't mean it won't be cross loaded with a load. My guess is that most that clip through both leg loops and harness leave the gate of the biner facing out. It's easier then to clip/unclip the device. however, most falls pull on the biner at a 45 to 80 degree angle away from the body. This isn't loading the carabiner along the spine, and thus is compromising it's strength. In theory at least... in reality, a 7 kN strength-for-cross-loading locking biner should probably suffice for most actual belay situations. One other plus for the belay loop is that it is easier to see that both strands are clipped when setting up before a rapp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_Martin Posted October 23, 2001 Share Posted October 23, 2001 I've put in a couple of seasons guiding for a reputable guide company. This is what we teach at our company. If there is a belay loop, it's there for a reason. The belay loop is the strongest point on the harness. The theory is that there is less liklihood of crossloading in this situation. If you are using a harness with a belay loop and choose not to use it, you are NOT using the harness properly. If you've clipped the biner through the loops which hold the belay loop, it is guaranteed to put a triaxal load on the biner. Now harnesses and biners are stong so in most cases it will not fail... However, any time you are not using a harness properly it COULD fail. As far as the Alpine Bod harnesses are concerned... They are good harnesses, but they are designed differently. They are designed to take the biner through the loops that would hold the belay loop on a different type of harness. There is no reason to replace this type of harness if you currently own one. There have been reports of harnesses failing because they were not properly used. In the early nineties there was a recall for a popular REI harness. If the harness was not worn correctly -- inside out -- the belay loop was not attached to anything but a flimsy piece of nylon. Sketch. My personal opinion is to use your harness the way the manufacturer intended. Wear it right and belay/rappel from the point they recommend. Happy Climbing, Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 I use a bod harness so I'm not used to working with a harness with a belay loop. However I wish I had one many times and have been considering getting one. If I owned one I would be tempted to tie the rope through the harness proper for leading and following and use the belay loop for belaying and rapping. Is this right??? DPP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pencil_Pusher Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 Do the manufacturer's have a money-back guarantee? I mean, you know... just in case something breaks on that really long rappel? That would really suck if a biner or harness failed. Caveat emptor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_Martin Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 David, The rule is hard goes into the belay loop and soft goes into the harness loops. In other words, tie directly into the harness with your rope and put your biners into the belay loop. Good Climbing, Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figger_Eight Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 rules, rules, rules...ya'll sound like a bunch of sport climbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
none_dup1 Posted October 24, 2001 Author Share Posted October 24, 2001 Two gearhead observations: Alpine Bod (hereafter called AB) harnesses are safe and properly designed - don't get me wrong. Geez, I even have one myself (a harness with no padding, no gear loops and no belay loop ain't all bad, I guess.) Most harnesses that have a belay loop have a large "rise", which is the distance between the two tie in points. A large rise makes it more likely that a biner will be loaded improperly, if you clip into the tie in points on this type of harness. AB harnesses are safe to use because the bottom tie in is designed to come up level with or even above the top tie in, resulting in very little "rise". When it does this, the belay biner is generally aligned correctly. Trick from a guide friend of mine: If you have an Alpine Bod harness and simply must have a belay loop, then tie two loops of 5.0 or 5.5 spectra cord onto the bottom loop of the harness. After you put on the harness, girth hitch the tied spectra loops thru both parts of the harness and belay off the spectra loops. Double loops are redundant. BD will say the voids their warranty and is not a recommended use, blah blah, but it sounds plenty safe to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted October 24, 2001 Share Posted October 24, 2001 I just belay and rappel off my pant's belt loop. Is there anything wrong with that? works sucks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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