rayborbon

I think you have to go find it yourself.

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Tyson, Is there climbable ice? I hear rumors of possibilities. How about a technical winter shot of even lesser difficulties but more than you mention? I dont want to take away from your venture. -Ray

Nice!=)

I volunteer to help. I can even help with technical aspects. Let me know Jon or Tim. I think I could do well at this and enjoy it in a non-biased way. -Ray

I think sport is fine to start with. Just make sure the person understands what they are getting into before you send them up thier first climb with pro.

*&^*(&^ talk. -Ray

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dane, Must have been nice to have the ropegun. -Ray

Dan?!, By popular demand reconsider putting that back up. -Ray

Count me out. I have climbing plans that weekend. Get really drunk like I would everybody. Mike let me know how it is. -Ray

Stout is what it is all about. It's like having a cigarette butt already in your beer . YUMMY!

Should get the pic of Dan on the shirt flipping you off. Mike has it on his website. -Ray

If you ask me it is a lame thread that everybody can sit and boast about how good they are because they climb harder or have done such and such routes. I recently took up ice climbing and like it. I am not good and have no apprenticeship either. I stay on the easy grades and find it quite fun.. Making a first ascent does not make or mark a man\good climber in my eyes. Climbing for fun and inner desires like self accomplishments are my main goals. I agree with and understand some of the reasoning of comments like this: "dozen climbers ignored the fabulously 'in' NE Buttress of Chair" Really looking at the thing as a whole I get the "move over peasant climbers of lesser abilities" mentalility. I personally have not taken laps on Drury, been to Banks Lake Ice, or even Chair Peak in the winter. I have chosen to take my progression at ice in a mellow fashion where I feel comfortable. Let's not forget where we all started.. However, I would like to state that I have seen parties attempt some of these routes mentioned without any ice experience and that is what troubles me. Perhaps I am too careful some might say, but I think not. Got balls? Well, nope I guess not me. But let's not lure inexperienced climbers in to a realm of more serious and dangerous climbing situations. -Ray

Right on Scott, I like Granite Mtn too. Mike S. and I finally hiked up it about 2 weeks ago. I did not get quite the best views but the conditions were great and it was a good excuse to go to work late I'll be heading back on a sunny day. -Ray

Rafael is correct there is a climb left of Deeping Wall and right of Waite For Spring. Thin at the bottom and fattens up higher. It is about Grade 4 I guess and very different from the other routes in that area. Be careful at the Rambles if it is crowded as you can get clobbered by large chunks of ice. Consider elsewhere if it is. I think I am gonna hit Salmon Stakes next time. I kind of like the idea of wading the river BTW wspleasance the upper part has 2 options. We went right, it sees less traffic and I hear it is better. We belayed under the vertical step, climbed for 15 meters with good tree belay above. It is strenuous but not as hard as it looks with good pro. -Ray [This message has been edited by rayborbon (edited 01-29-2001).] [This message has been edited by rayborbon (edited 01-29-2001).]

Actually I think the photos on the linked page above may be a little misleading. I am not sure they are labeled correctly. The one labeled Deeping Wall may not be. I really don't care about the names... This is the one I mentioned above. I believe Deeping Wall is the fat one you walk upon as soon as you get there. I may be incorrect but anyhow they are all good climbs and different from each other. -Ray

I have been in contact with Scott Silver at http://wildwilderness.org/ He has been keeping me up to date on other issues similar to my experience. Interesting stuff if you like to get into it. I think it is good to know about. Here is a recent one: ------ begin quoted ---------- http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/news/oregonian/01/01/lc_ 71fees27.frame Forest fee enforcement will intensify in Northwest The Forest Service is expanding a trial program that may be entering a make or break season Saturday, January 27, 2001 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- By Michael Milstein of The Oregonian staff Hikers and other visitors to the Northwest's national forests will have to pay fees at more trailheads and other recreation sites this summer and will face stiffer penalties -- including fines -- if they don't. The stepped-up enforcement is part of a push by the U.S. Forest Service to show that its trial fee program works before Congress decides whether to make recreation fees, such as the regionwide Northwest Forest Pass, a permanent fixture on the nation's public lands. The Northwest Forest Pass costs $5 a day or $30 a year. It is required at more than 1,000 trailheads and other recreation sites in Oregon and Washington national forests and in North Cascades National Park. The pass raised $2.1 million last year and is the broadest regional test of the notion that hikers, boaters, picnickers and others who enjoy public lands can and should pay their way. Federal land recreation fees have generated millions for maintaining trails, campgrounds and other visitor facilities since Congress in 1996 gave agencies permission to try them. But public surveys have raised nagging doubts about whether the public is willing to pay for some activities, such as hiking. Congressional Republicans and Democrats, including Rep. Peter DeFazio, D-Ore., have tried to kill the fee program. An attempt last year by former Sen. Slade Gorton, R-Wash., to enact permanent recreation fees also failed, and Congress later temporarily extended the trial fee program until September 2002. Lawmakers must decide by then whether to make fees permanent or to extend them again, so this summer could be a make or break period for agencies such as the Forest Service that have come to rely on fees for facilities and operations once financed by Congress. A memo issued last week to national forest supervisors in the Northwest urges them to "keep in mind the long-term view" when charging fees and to promote public support by making clear that fees pay for the upkeep of recreation sites. The memo also outlines plans to increase use and enforcement of the Northwest Forest Pass this summer: . The number of regional "free days," when visitors can use forests without buying a pass, will drop from four to one. Individual forests can designate other free days. . Less-visited national forests that have not made use of the pass, such as the Malheur and Ochoco forests in Eastern Oregon and the Fremont in Southern Oregon, will mandate it in some places this summer. . The Forest Service will encourage privately operated facilities such as marinas to honor the pass in place of their own fees. . Forests that already require the pass, such as the Mount Hood National Forest near Portland, will mandate it at new locations so it is used more consistently within each forest. Some sites still will remain free. . Instead of leaving reminder envelopes so people without passes can pay by mail, forest officers will issue warnings to any vehicle without a pass and record its license plate. Officers also could issue a citation carrying a $50 fine. Last year, officers issued about a dozen citations throughout Oregon and Washington to people who failed to pay fees, said Jocelyn Biro, the Forest Service's recreation fee coordinator for the Northwest. Officials estimate that 30 percent to 80 percent of those using fee sites in the region paid the fees, with fewer paying at more remote locations. The tougher enforcement this year probably will lead to more citations but should keep some people from dodging the fees. "It's not fair for one person to pay and then see six other cars that haven't paid and have gotten away with it," Biro said. But drawing a line could amplify opposition to the fees. A public survey conducted for the Forest Service in the Northwest found that although most people are willing to pay to use developed campgrounds, boat ramps and off-road vehicle areas, they are unwilling to pay for picnicking, trail hiking or stopping at viewpoints. "You're going to see more signs, more development and more people in uniforms as they try to tell people they should pay and then make them pay," said Scott Silver of Bend, founder of Wild Wilderness, an anti-fee group. "It's changing the whole character of what our national forests look like." You can reach Michael Milstein at 503-294-7689 or by e-mail at michaelmilstein@news.oregonian.com. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -Ray

The Fly by Dmm is the kind when you compare to BD. I have BD Prophets and say if you are starting out get Dmm Flys out of the 2. How about that Predator? It looks like the &^%&%*? Never tried it.. I demo'd lots of tools recently and think the rage is just as good as the cobra too. Overall the best buy for the cash seems to be the Dmm Fly. However the quark has advantages too. I hear the picks could be a questionable investment (short term) for certain reasons (availability). -Ray

Climb without glasses , I say. Wimpee. Hahahaha I am as blind as they come. -Ray

No defense huh.. I must let the rest of the commmunity observe this, and analyze it. Silent questioning eh? Some guilt and truth must be lurking. -Ray

I never used it but saw a gal following Icy BC yesterday morning and thought it looked smart. Kind of bulky but I would imagine it would work great in your situation. I could imagine if you geton a route with the "dripping effect" it could hamper your vision. But you could slap some Rainx on and I bet it would perform well. -Ray

After a jab into my skull by MikeA I must rethink and add to what I said. It all depends on what routes you and they were climbing. Also if you were Tr then they should have been more polite and asked to climb through. Perhaps they were sympathetic but just did not show it. Who knows... Nobody likes being blasted by ice and rock and I personally would not have done what they did. I was not there and I think there are 2 sides to all stories though. Mike maybe you should pound me in the head with your Grivels more often. -Ray

Hmmmm. Mike and DPP are exactly correct. I am still trying to figure it out after one try myself. Seems like Mike is going to figure it out though. Good luck too! -Ray

quote: Originally posted by rayborbon: It is a heavy decision in 2 ways but Pro Mountain Sports is\was as of last Friday selling the Grivel "Guru" screws (floating handles) with thier sheath. Slinging this around your torso on a rack is a great idea no matter what brand of screw you have. No worrries about ripping shell jackets in X-treme weather either. Just remember there is more weight included but not much. I am sold on these at my level of climbing (lead grade 3 ice) even with thier minute weight addition. Not to mention I think everyone should have at least one of these Grivel "Guru" screws for those tough times on thier rack. Get one. http://www.promountainsports.com/hardware.shtml -Ray