jon

Retro, I appreciate your arguement and you are absolutely right that paying for a pass is discrimitory based on a person's/family's income, this is something I've considered and heard argued before, but something I haven't not quite taken to heart until now. I believe there are even statistics in the GAO report supporting what you have stated. Even so for family with a modest income, between child care and/or schooling, mortage, car payments, etc., $25 for a pass and $20 per night for camping can be inhibiting for a family to get out often. There have been times in my life that I couldn't have been able to afford the forest pass because money was so tight, and although I'm in a situation now I could afford to buy one which I certainly don't take for granted, your explaination is just yet another reason why I refuse to buy it and why others should do the same. As far as how you vote "no" to the forest pass, getting tickets or parking 1/4 mile away isn't a vote. That information isn't assemble and the people making the descions on whether to extend fee demo don't hear about that. The numbers they see is the amount of revenue that fee demo has produced. And the amount compared to before is enticing to them, and I'm sure the yearly revenue is only growing as the pass has been enforced more stictly and in more areas. So this is what congress sees. And the ARC wines and dines them and blows a bunch of sunshine up their asses, and all of the sudden fee demo sounds like a pretty good idea. People protest and write angry letters, but all these congressman see is a bunch or radical tree hugger extremists, the type they see and hear from with just about every issue that they deal with on Capital Hill. End the the occupation of the Middle East, stop Missle Defense, more money for schools, on and on and on, they hear day in and day out. These people for the most part are deaf now. Then someone gets a letter about a family working hard just to get by and how the don't feel it is right that they have to pay to use their public lands. Maybe this Congressman sympethizes because there was in a time in their life where they were in a similar financial situation. My point here is the only way to vote no is to convince the people who are doing the actual voting that fee demo is wrong, and they only way to do this is to write and call them. I can write all the angry letters I want to our representatives about how fee demo is double taxation and go on and on about timber and mining yada yada, but the message behind stories like Retro's or ScottP's is so much more powerful and compelling that they must be heard.

You know I meant draw bridge don't be an idiot Attitude. The cost difference of building and maintaining a dynamic stucture versus a static one is enormous and has to be burdened by someone. You guys can nit pick my example all you want, I don't care. I'm with Craig, I could care less about the fee, it's the principle behind it, privitization of public lands and the failure of an agency that very well could be self supportive from tax payer money by proper management of it's renewable natural commodity, timber, and other natural resouces like ores.

Don't you have to start working to finish??

Jesus christ allsion I don't care about the boats and the bridges it doesn't bother me that when I'm standing by the bridge waiting for it to close at 3pm on a Wednesday because some guy with a 80 foot mast needs to get through, good for him that he can afford a boat that big and go sailing while I'm working. That kind of shit doesn't bother me. I was just using it as an example for my arguement that tax dollars are often allocated towards specific uses that aid only a small fraction of the tax paying population. In the case of Montake bridge there are probably only a handfull of people who own boats that require there being a bridge there, yet it is still there and maintained and tended. If you noticed I also looked at the counter arguement about why 80 foot mast dude wants his tax money so I can get literally a free ride to work everyday while only a small percentage of the public actually uses it. I think I offered a pretty fair analysis. So how does what your trying to say relate to the fee demo arguement?

Sorry to break your heart allison but your boat tab revenue is hardly enough to cover the water cops let alone million dollar drawbridges, which actually reinforces my arguement. How can a $20 trail pass pay for the Forest Service to maintain trails and cans when the fee itself can not even cover the cost of collecting and enforcing the fee?

PAGE TOP BEYOTCH!!!! TRASK IS A BACH BACH BACH BACH BAGOCK CHICKEN F'ER!!!!!

I'll either be played by Christopher Walken or Dennis Leary, I can't decide.

I think that guy gave you a pretty honest answer. I'm sure some of the FS people are in a tough spot having to enforce something they may not agree with. Remember that most of these people are in the FS because of their love for the outdoors and not the million dollar signing bonuses and lucrative endorsement contracts. The one arguement I really have a problem with is this.. quote: Congress has decided that some of the operation and maintenance of recreation facitlities should be borne by the users of those facilities and not the population at large. I think one of the best examples of how this arguement falls flat are some of the small draw bridges in the Seattle area like Montlake. How much does this bridge cost to operate versus the number of boats that use it, remembering the fact that anyone who has a boat that big needs the bridge opened is probably fairly well off. You can make up examples of these types of things all day long, like the rich guy with the boat could argue that why should his tax dollars subsidize my bus ride to work that a large percentage of the population doesn't use. And that's exactly point, our tax dollars are used for things that you may not support or use.

And this weeks ingredient is.......HORSECOCK!

Dwayner has just secured his ownership of the famed and prestigious "Freak of the Week" award. Congratulation! FREAK OUT!

quote: Originally posted by ryland moore: Also, for some real HC near Bend, on your way to Smith, before you get to the parking lot, there used to be a sign that said Buffalo Meat , or something close. I've bought Buffalo Summer sausage from the guy and it is awesome. Plus it is huge! Kinda like Trask's Ass! Drove by there on Monday sign says sold out. NO BUFFALO COCK FOR YOU!!

The American Recreation Coalition has just placed its recap of Great Outdoors Week onto the web and it is both fascinating and educational. If you wish to better understand how recreation decisions get made in this country today, (and for whose benefit these decisions are made), please read on. Scott PS... If anyone has a spare $50 with which to purchase a copy of ARC's Toolbox (see below), I expect it would provide great insight into exactly how the Corporate Takeover of Nature is being engineered. PSS... Anyone wishing to throw a wrench in ARC's agenda is invited to write their congresspersons, send a letter to the editor and do whatever else they believe will be effective. -------- begin quoted ---------- (((((CONDENSED VERSION FOLLOWS))))) Full test available at: http://www.funoutdoors.com/GOW2002/index.htm Great Outdoors Week June 10-14, 2002 - Washington, DC Since 1996, Great Outdoors Week has showcased an array of exciting opportunities for showcasing and advancing the interests and issues of the recreation community at the national level. The event, sponsored by the Recreation Vehicle Industry Association, Recreation Vehicle Dealers Association and National Association of RV Parks and Campgrounds was held on the roof of the U.S. Department of the Interior and our guests included the heads of virtually all major federal recreation agencies, many assistant and under secretaries, key White House staffers and other special guests. Our host was Steve Griles, Deputy Secretary of the Interior, who serves as the department's Chief Operating Officer. Another one of the special features of the event was the unveiling of President Bush's proclamation of Great Outdoors Week 2002. Tuesday evening we presented the 14th Sheldon Coleman Great Outdoors Award to Fran Mainella, Director of the National Park Service. Ms. Mainella told us that she was very honored to receive the award and outlined her vision for new directions at the National Park Service, including a new focus on partnerships and expanded outdoor recreation opportunities. On Wednesday, we honored the achievements of seven outstanding federal civil with ARC's 2002 Legends Awards at our Recreation Exchange Lunch at the Occidental Grill. Presented by key officials in each agency, the awards recognized extraordinary individuals who have expanded and enhanced recreational opportunities through public/private partnerships, or have increased participation in outdoor recreation through innovative programs based upon public/private partnerships. After presenting the awards, Derrick Crandall gave a presentation on the Toolbox for the Great Outdoors Interactive CD. The Toolbox contains multi-media overviews of 20 creative tools and more than a billion dollars annually in potential resources which can supplement traditional appropriations to federal recreation-providing agencies. Click here for an order form. <http://www.funoutdoors.com/GOW2002/Toolbox%20Orderform.htm> After lunch, the group and others headed over to the Department of Interior for the Outdoor Initiative Showcase Ice Cream Social highlighting federal initiatives such as Recreation-One stop, National Wildlife Refuge System Centennial, and the Lewis and Clark Bicentennial Commemoration. Thursday began with a listening session on Capitol Hill regarding Fee Demo. More than thirty members of the Recreation Community discussed the future of Recreation Fees with key staffers and House Resources Committee Chairman, Jim Hansen (R-UT). For lunch on Thursday, at yet another Hill Location, the Coalition for Recreational Trails (CRT) presented its fourth annual Achievement Awards to nine trail projects for their outstanding use of Recreational Trails Program (RTP) funds. Several members of Congress appeared and joined in the presentations to winners from across the country. http://www.funoutdoors.com/GOW2002/patrons.htm Great Outdoors Week is made possible through the generous support of many organizations committed to enhancing recreation in America, including: Patrons The Coleman Company Recreation Vehicle Dealers Association Recreation Vehicle Industry Association U.S. Department of the Interior Bureau of Land Management Sponsors American Association for Nude Recreation - West American Council of Snowmobile Associations American Motorcyclist Association Good Sam Club National Association of RV Parks and Campgrounds National Forest Recreation Association National Marine Manufacturers Association Pennsylvania Recreation Vehicle and Camping Association The Walt Disney Company Friends Family Motor Coach Association Jayco, Inc. Motorcycle Industry Council National Geographic Society National Recreation and Park Association Personal Watercraft Industry Association PricewaterhouseCoopers Recreation Vehicle Rental Association ReserveAmerica Sporting Goods Manufacturers Association Thor Industries, Inc. Yamaha Motor Corporation, U.S.A. Supporters America Outdoors * International Snowmobile Manufacturers Association Kampgrounds of America * National Fish and Wildlife Foundation National Park Hospitality Association * SnowSports Industries America States Organization for Boating Access * Western States Tourism Policy Conference http://www.funoutdoors.com/GOW2002/Others.htm In addition to our Patrons, Sponsors, Friends, and Supporters, the generosity of many others makes Great Outdoors Week possible. Among those additional partners, we wish to thank the donors for our silent auction and others who have contributed significantly to the success of Great Outdoors Week: Anacostia Park * Blue Bell Creameries * BoatU.S. Boys & Girls Clubs of Greater Washington Boy Scouts of America * Bureau of Reclamation Canoe Kentucky * Chincoteague Natural History Association D & D Rental * DNPS Sequoia Delaware North Parks Services D.C. Department of Health, Environmental Health Administration Earth Conservation Corps * Federal Highway Administration Girl Scout Council of the Nation's Capital Grand Teton Lodge Company * Kmart - Annandale, Virginia Living Classrooms * Matthew Henson Earth Conservation Center McDonald's - 13th Street and New York Avenue, N.W. Metropolitan Fire Department Metropolitan Police Department, Harbor Patrol National Park Service * National Ski Areas Association Patuxent Research Refuge Professional Paddlesports Association * Project WET Pure Fishing * REI - College Park, Maryland Recreational Boating and Fishing Foundation River and Trail Outfitters * Safeway * Snowbird Corporation U.S. Army Corps of Engineers * U.S.D.A. Forest Service U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Wal-Mart - 7910 Richmond Highway * Washington, D.C. WOW Yosemite Concession Services Corporation ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Scott Silver Wild Wilderness 248 NW Wilmington Ave. Bend, OR 97701 phone: 541-385-5261 e-mail: ssilver@wildwilderness.org Internet: http://www.wildwilderness.org ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

All you guys need to call down. I love everyone here.....except trask he's a chicken f'er!

Drul after 6000 posts you think you'd have it down by now.

There was flash flooding down here in Bend, streets were closed, the WT were entertained driving through deep puddles... and we had Smith all to ourselves today.

www.photographyreview.com www.dpreview.com www.cnet.com

Hey Stebbi good thing this wasn't a horsecock!

I've got nothing wrong with FF I'm just stating something that I was told. I was in Marmot talking to one of the guys whos been there for a while, about their new lightweight bags which are 800 fill. He told me that 800 was the minimum and it wasn't unlikely for people to get 900 fill and they had got this really good batch that was 1000 fill that a few lucky SOBs would get. I don't know crap about down so I don't know if this is even possible.

bought a Park Pass T-shirt at REI????

I really doubt they have motion sensors up there. I'd imagine that such a thing is fairly expensive, and though I might be a little ignorant on the subject the fine for not having a permit is nothing compared to those given to poachers. If I'm correct poachers face steep fines and even jail time so it is worth it for the land managers to set up sensors and use remote control animals to catch these guys. It's all about return of investment for these guys. I'm pretty sure it is meow easier for them to count cars around the trailhead and catch you there. Plus that way they get to check to see if you don't have your Forest Pass. The truth is out there!

Is your job really that boring?

quote: Martha's New Recipes by trask (post # 1) Not really climbing related.......... Imagine that!

Ok meow I tried to be nice about this. Get rid of the dildo autosig or stop posting.

Try Pedialyte (expensive at $5 bottle) or pickle juice. The later, while sounding silly, has worked miracles for althletes prone to cramping. Both are super loaded with electrolytes, much more than Gatorade. Some endurance athletes also take special salt tablets which help when it is really hot out and you are sweating profusely. I think you can get these at GNC or SpeedyReedy in Freemont.

GREG WATCH OUT FOR THE SNAFFLEHOUNDS WITH THE FRICKIN LAZER BEAMZ!!!!!!