Raindawg

This reminds me of an incident a few years ago on Castle Rock near Leavenworth. I was free-soloing a route and was sort of lost on small holds about 50 feet from the top and a bit nervous. All of a sudden, a big rock comes flying by my head followed by a couple of more. I did not appreciate this and as I approached the summit, I found some local dumb-donkey unearthing rocks with his clod-hopping boots, picking them up, and heaving them down directly above the classic beginner's route, Saber. Not only were there routes below, but an approach/descent trail as well. The rocks were actually crashing through tree branches with people down below. I rushed by the moron, telling him to cease and that he very well might have killed some people. When I got to the trail to see if anyone was affected, I found two students from my university, cowering in fear in the Saber arete. This was their first attempt at leading a climb and what they got was a near-fatal terrifying experience. The lesson?...yes, trundling is fun, but it has consequences and it's more prudent to resist the urge than frighten, maim or even kill.

Nice work, amigos. A couple of tips from someone who's been out on the traverse a lot: It's a bit easier if you start from Unicorn and head toward Eagle. The general trend is at least downhill. Although I've done the traverse from Unicorn to Eagle, bagging all of the peaks on the way (about 10 hours), I've done Stevens but once. Getting up to Unicorn is merely the approach and from there it is a long ways east to summit Stevens. It took me and pope something like half a day to get back there and return. I suppose if you were to technically do a complete traverse, you'd have to add Stevens and Boundary and it would make for a very long day indeed. (Plus there are is a spur and a major feature off of Wahpaneyo, though unnamed, which are perhaps also legitimate summits....plus a sub-peak off of Unicorn [to the right of the Unicorn saddle] which is likewise unnamed but we call it "West Unicorn".) To get back from Unicorn or Pinnacle Peak to Longmire, find the Wonderland trail near Reflection Lakes and head on down towards Narada Falls and beyond. It's only about six miles back to Longmire and it is a fun run or hike and sure beats hiking the long, long road. cheers,

One hour later.... Oy! What was in that crap! Now I've got cramps in my gut! Thanks, pal! Feels like there's a horseshoe crab trying to crawl it's way out....not one of them creepy east coast things, I'm talkin' one of them giant prehistoric mutha's....like the kind they got on exhibit at that idiotic trinkets "museum" near the beach. Take your "brie" and shove it where the sun don't shine...and I ain't talkin' about the North Pole during the winter.

Excuse me...can I have just a little taste of that yummy brie? Really...just a tiny bit! Oh! Thank you! mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Sporto Metaphor The go-go dancers are metaphors for sport-climbs while the calls for "go, baby, go" resemble that of the French encouragement cry: "Allez!".

Hey "Moses!" ...you don't know from Moses. Really....you don't.

I guess no discussion of the Mountaineers on cc.com could go without some of these classics:

As someone for whom books are tools of the trade, I'll make the following suggestions: I would recommend that you don't sell your books to Half-Price...I brought in about $300 worth of books once and they offered about $5 worth of store credit or cash or whatever. I know what books are worth and I felt totally exploited. On the other hand, I buy a lot of books from them for cheap because of suckers who don't care what they get for turning them over. I suggest that you offer your climbing books for sale right here on cc.com. List them with what you think might be a fair price or be willing to negotiate. (to see what independent book-sellers are offering in price for the same individual volumes, consult: Advanced Book Exchange , where lots of them post their inventories.) You've got an excited and interested audience right here. Maybe they'll even buy your physics books!

It took several years of apprenticeship under very experienced climbers/teachers before I had the audacity to call myself an instructor. When I was guiding, I was often asked about the difference between a professional (and more expensive) mountain guide and signing up with the Mountaineers. Without bad-mouthing the Mounties too much, I would note that mountain guides have a wealth of real experience and instructional ability while some of the Mountaineers courses are taught by the "graduates" of the previous year's Basic Course (complete with commandants holding clipboards with checklists). Ja wohl! There is also the matter of small groups and individual attention with a guide verses a herd mentality with the club instruction. On the other hand, the Mountie's paramilitary-like organization with all of its many rules and regulations tends to keep their courses and many of their group outings relatively safe, although perhaps mundane. A comment I recall hearing once was that they do us all a service by keeping otherwise dangerous people out of the more serious mountains. At this point, I don't really care, although I've experienced plenty of my own goofy Mountie encounters including some with their so-called "mentors" program, a.k.a. "the blind leading the blind".

So don't lead them, dude. It's a ridiculous example of overbolting...that little pedestal is about 25 feet tall with easily accessible top-rope anchors. Chop it and top it, I say. Read the acres and acres of comments about bolting and grid-bolting and overbolting on cc.com and you'll get a grasp of the issues. Start by re-reading the comments above. Sounds like you're willing to "write off" the "Fun Forest" because it's small. Many do, and that's why some of us are disgusted with the way it's been treated.

The recap is: a) you once again understood nothing; b) you once again added nothing of substance.

I'm not Indiana Jones....he is a fabrication of a group of movie producers and screen-writers. No. You didn't answer the question. What do you do, Kevbone?

What the heck do you know about what I have and haven't climbed?(As a matter of fact, I have. It was difficult.) Is it time for the gratuitous schvanz measuring/pissing for distance contest? I don't play that game. You can get in line with all of the other people I don't know who seem to be experts on my life, BUT AREN'T. By the way, dinosaurs have nothing whatsoever to do with my profession. Just as my profession has nothing to do with this discussion. Those of you who wish to belittle my professional life should display their own...starting with Kevbone...what do you do, Kevbone? How 'bout you, Sexy Cocoa? Tell us about your exciting professions so others can also drag it into the discussion.

I have a problem with the means of obtaining the objective. Do you really think that sieging a sport-climb to obtain some high-number is equivalent to having the skill to climb the route on-sight? By the way, Matthew Perkins, you were the one who told me I could never climb a 5.13....you sized me up and decided I was incapable. I still say it's possible for most who want to work up to it or employ siege tactics...you seem to be the one putting limits on people, including people you don't know very well.

There is nothing "on-going" and "the bet" was childish. Here's the story which directly relates: A few years ago, there was a discussion about hang-dogging in which I described it as "siege climbing". The old school philosophy is that you climb from the bottom up, and if you fell, you were lowered to the ground and started over, or you trained on lower grades and worked your abilities higher until you were good enough to address the climb on its own terms. Hang-dogging...hanging off your gear to rest, falling repeatedly while rehearsing the moves, was considered weak free-climbing, essentially aid, and bogus. It demonstrated that you weren't ready. So let's say the climb is 5.13, and someone thrashes their way up this thing after weeks of hang-dogging and rehearsal and than pulls the rope and "red-points" it. Is this person really a 5.13 climber versus someone who has worked their abilities to the point where they can actually lead it on-site? An analogous tradition can be seen in the expedition vs. alpine tradition in mountaineering where alpine-style climbing is considered a stylistically superior means of obtaining a summit. Reinhold Messner epitomized this by advocating and demonstrating the concept of climbing the mountain by fair means, not beating/sieging it into submission. I also made the analogy on cc.com about a piano; something to the affect of: You may not be able to play the piano today but rehearse it enough and you'll be able to play a Beethoven sonata. This, by the way, does not mean that you have the same skill level of someone who has worked up their skill level to the point where new music can be set in front of them and they can play through a sonata without falling all over themselves. I made the comment that I felt that nearly any climber with the dedication could, using the present rules of sport climbing, pull off a 5.13 if they were allowed to rehearse the moves endlessly into submission. It might take them months or a year or whatever, but put up rules like that, and it opens the door to all kinds of faux-accomplishments. I picked 5.13 because a lot of folks see that as a BIG NUMBER! and it seems to be a usual number for when the on-sight leading often ends and the sieging begins. Some folks chimed in saying 5.13 wasn't such a big deal anymore....it's what 5.12 was 20 years ago or 5.11 25 years ago. They're all over the place now...Whatever, I was making a theoretical statement apparently lost on many. Then the usual cc.com taunts began, and a few of the usual and predictable blow-hards came out with frat-boy challenges to collect a bet that Dwayner couldn't possibly climb any kind of 5.13 no longer how he tried. It was utterly childish. One major moderator on this site told me that it would be impossible for me (to which I replied that I hope he doesn't spread his crappy attitude to children). The school-yard buddies delivered their usual lame clichés: "put your money where..." and my award for the most pathetic of all time: "don't cash a check your *ss can't deliver" Believe me, if I had a convenient crag nearby, the interest and inspiration, and importantly, the time (none of which I have), it would be very satisfying to engage in such a challenge myself....it's not an excuse...it's reality...(on the other hand, I don't have an inclination to respond to juvenile bets, but if I ever do, it will be on my own time and terms). Regardless, my concept still stands. Perhaps someone with an abundance of the factors that thwart me can prove me correct. Now wasn't that fascinating?

I'm just removing the smokescreen and calling it as it is. TAKE!

Your utter ignorance is at times overwhelming. By the way, what do you do for a living? Do you even have a job? Perhaps we should all know so we can have the option of bringing your personal "profession" into comments directed your way.

It's called "siege climbing", accept instead of fixed camps up the side of a mountain, you have fixed bolts on the side of the cliff on which you rehearse the moves into submission over a period of weeks. You must be part of the in-crowd to be catchin' all the happenin' goodness of Dave, Chris, Tommy, Beth, + da hole gang! Meanwhile, at the backdoor of the gym, the groupies await the departure of their favorite rock-stars! "5.15.....that's SO dreamy!!!!!!"

Took a little visit to the "Fun Forest" off Denny Creek Road a couple of days ago. It should be renamed "Forest of Shame". The place has been hopelessly abused. I've heard the old, lame excuse that Exit 38 is a choss heap left over from railroad construction so it's "O.K." to drill the crap out of it. Well the "Fun Forest" certainly isn't. It's a cute little crag of beautiful granite: We're not looking at El Cap, here. This thing is about 25 feet tall. My guidebook lists this tiny tower as a top-rope experience. The bolts are circled. This picture doesn't capture the full extent of the ridiculous metallic trail installed on this little face but I've circled the artificial elements I could pick out in the image...there are a lot more. Some seem to be installed next to protectable cracks taking smaller pro. Whatever. They're so close together you could practice aid climbing up this thing. The guidebook has a couple of route right here: It's either "Wild Mouse" (10d)...."Pro to 2" including TCU's" or "Flight to Mars" (11aR), so it seems that one of these was likely retrobolted or it's a relatively new bolted squeeze job. Why must this persist? Everything here can likely be easily top-roped.

We've already been through this. Is your name not mattp, Matthew Perkins (which everybody knows), or is this the secret avatar name you're hiding behind to say naughty things? I'm calling you out because you are suggesting that someone might be lying, which I consider to be a serious matter. [by the way, how many are the "many threads" that you claim I have drug you into by name...I remember one in particular and if I recall, I apologized for calling you something like "M. Perkins" or "Mr. Perkins" because you didn't like being pointed out ins such a way. After your big call for transparency in the "bolt wars" topic, I'm surprised you're even complaining.] Is this a special moderator's trick you get to do? As I've said before, make that a policy for everyone and I'm on-board. - Don Ryan, but you can call me "Raindawg"

Matthew Perkins: I really don't care which one of you has the more accurate assessment here, but don't suggest that someone is lying unless you have evidence to strongly suggest it. You can disagree with him, question his statistics or whatever, but the speculation of devious intent is really inappropriate.

Great thing about the democracy....one cans express oneself...but ones cans also ignores whats ones don'ts likes. What a country! Yous finds ethics, like the bolts, boring? Keeps pretendinks is "all good!"