Raindawg

Come down off your high, pal. No "props" to you or the "first ascensionist" [and are they "ascensionists" if they rap-bolted???] The route is a disgrace and in a wilderness area no less. There's no problem with access...you obviously had no problem gaining access to it...it's an ethical issue...for example, whether you can live with yourself for having endorsed this atrocity. Maybe you can brag to your buddies in the future that you were one of the relatively few that climbed it, because I've heard there are some that might take action, physical or legal, against this offense in the near future. Classic? You haven't been out much, have you. A long time? Very doubtful.

O-Halonee! This was posted awhile back but well deserves a second look for some quality outdoor advice. "Too tough for "Nam", too much diabetes for the Army!"

P.S. "John" = "Dwayner" and a) he ain't really a paramedic and b) he don't really like being called "f*&%er" because he's too much of a gentleman to say otherwise to a lady. So, rephrase it: "Dwayner is a super-hero." "Well said!" says Tom Stoppard.

says the man who has joint jerkoff sessions with his gf, dwayner, to a life size poster of richard simmons... Ya, Rude-Eeeeeh! me and my "gf" pope found this picture of you and your special pals sendin' the sporty sickness at Exit 69. Such talent!

Even nature is rebelling against those crappy bolted routes!

The "guide" is a fool. And there aren't too many "well-known NW area pro"'s except for some of Big Lou's former boys and Jim Nelson and I'm sure it WASN'T one of them because they definitely know better. Maybe he's some sort of local hero in the Oregon "climbing community". - sounds like the "guide" parked him next to a tent so that he could be found more easily on the way down (kind of like a big wand) and hoped that the tent owners would take care of him or he could crawl in (someone else's tent) should things get bad. Lame! Sounds like a bad guiding decisions all the way around from client care to weather assessement. Imagine the look on his face and feelings of horror (although maybe I'm assuming too much) when this "guide" descends looking for the client and both the tent and the client are gone. At least John the client showed some degree of concern by not getting into his truck and driving home which might have set off a rescue, but if I were him, I'd ask at least for my money back. BIG LOU says: "That's kindergarden stuff, mister!"

You stupid hockey pucks! You're all wrong! Here is the genuine king of insults: "kevbone"...you're a mere amateur....and so is that Don Rickles wannabe, "Triumph, the Insult Dog". Hey Triumph! Second place is first loser!

[ ....and a very ignorant one at that. In your case, Forrest Gump, Jr....your lack of education has made you churlish.

You ain't alone, seahawks..."kevbone" called me that as well. If being an "elitist prick" means being educated and having an educated opinion, then there are a whole lot of us. Question for "kevbone": did you go to college? If so, which one, because I'd like to have their credentials challenged. I personally wouldn't say college makes you smart. Just shows you can jump the hoops. I've known some really smart people that never went to college. Probably the smartest I've met and some really dumb ones in school. Then you have the ones that are just soooo smart and have no common sense. Me personally I just like to see someone with common sense. He can call me an elitist prick but an elitist prick wouldn't spent last weekend in a tent with a 3 and 5 year old. You're right, college doesn't make you smart, but there are ways of evaluating information and there is basic foundational information that one gets through education...even in high school, that Mr. Kevbone often seems to lack.

You ain't alone, seahawks..."kevbone" called me that as well. If being an "elitist prick" means being educated and having an educated opinion, then there are a whole lot of us. Question for "kevbone": did you go to college? If so, which one, because I'd like to have their credentials challenged.

dude....the government tells you all day long what you can and cannot do and I suspect you go along with most of it. How is Mr. Seahawk "pushing his agenda on you"? I'll tell you something you can do: get off the dang computer for once...that way, you won't even have a notion that he's "pushing" anything on you. Speaking of agendas, this is how it works in a "democracy": 51% of the people, or their elected representatives, set your "agenda" whether you like it or not.

In Biblical terms, there is a difference between "killing" and "murder". The famous commandment, "Thou shall not kill", is better translated as "you shall not murder". The difference between the two is that while killing is the act of extinguishing a life, a murder is an "unjust death". In that context, one must decide whether killing a terrorist or a fetus is a "just death". RE. abortion laws: it seems to me that they actually support some sort of special right to have irresponsible sex with no consequences.

He gives hope that there are probably more genuinely talented people on this planet than we recognize, especially when compared to some of the half-baked, overhyped "celebrities" that have been promoted through "the system".

Guys like this are out there, yet remain unnoticed because we have a cultural box that fellows like this don't fit in.

Joseph has done a great service by posting the bolt removal and very importantly, RESTORATION, instructions above. A question for Joseph: is it possible to mix in crushed sand or other small particles of the local rock in the expoxy to provide a more natural color and texture? In a more enlightened future, perhaps all sport-routes will be erased and restored, ideally by the people who established them.

If you don't like the commentary, find another topic to read, or better yet, why don't YOU go climbing NOW so you can forget all about the "dead horse". By the way, "the horse" isn't dead......not even close.

Thanks for the interesting historical perspective. The difference with Friends, though, is (unless you they're wrongly placed or "walk"), is that they're removable and don't leave a permanent mess.

Part of the attraction of sport-climbing is that the learning curve is immensely shallow, providing nearly immediate gratification. When compared with the effort it takes to learn to competently place removable gear, it's hard to compete with the cheap and safe seduction of "clip and go!", so the drills keep drilling to support the less complicated mode that appeals to the most people (despite its contradiction to an outdoors "leave little trace" philosophy that most, ironically, will likely agree to in theory if asked). But the people selling the gear love the big boost in sales to the instant "climbers"! I wouldn't hand any of these guys a rack and tell them to go at it...there's a good chance that they'll misuse it or lose it, most likely scare themselves, and possibly hurt themselves. How many of these sporto's would drop-out if they were required to spend the time learning to place and remove gear, set up anchors, assess risk, etc? Probably a lot, and I wouldn't miss a one of them.

The fact that you've apparently climbed trad at some time still doesn't legitimize the sport climbs.

Good for you...I'd venture to say that you are in the minority. I merely addressed a question regarding who might be bolting cracks. Apparently you didn't like the answer, with which others, too, seem to agree. As far as an answer to the problem "issues" is concerned, I didn't provide a solution in my post, demeaning or otherwise. Furthermore, I don't believe all types of climbing are worthy of respect; especially those that leave a permanent mess. P.S....it ain't "all good" and future generations will pay for today's selfishness. Well-characterized.....where the infection on this continent began in earnest and the disease continues. Ever climb there before it went sporty? Were you even climbing back then? Why don't you teach them from the get-go? I hope they get plenty of supervision. You sound really negative yourself, sparky. Pee on the messenger, eh? The fact is, nobody likes to hear that their beloved hobby is ethically dubious. My solution? First, the problem has to be recognized....I'm doing my part to keep the subject alive because much of the contemporary climbing "community" either doesn't seem to know, care, or plays ignorant that there are serious issues with the dominant paradigm of "sport climbing". Next, educate people so that at least there is an awareness that things such as "bolts" are controversial, and what the options are. Next, influence people to see it my way (whether you like my style or not), along with whatever means (informing the Forest Service, land owners, etc. what the issues are). It's the American way....it's a competition of ideas. If you think you've got some better ways or notions, go to it.... By the way, your post has a certain deja-vu feeling about it. You sound just like Lambone, who used to post a lot here and whose name is "matt". You be Lambone?

Is the goal here to "see traffic"? Dumb it down to attract more ants? So bring some big gear or stay off of it!

I would suggest that some of the crack-bolters are sport-climbers who don't know how to climb cracks. Crack climbing is an art that takes practice. Given that a lot of sporto's are gym-graduates, many probably don't have the appropriate skills. Last time me 'n "pope" went to a gym (some place in Seattle), there was a just a little section in the giant complex with a hand crack. We walked right up this thing and most of the gym-rats stared at us like we were a couple of aliens. Not only aren't the sporty masses trained well (or at all) for cracks, they're not trained well to place protection. They learn, in the gym and at the sporty crags, that clippin' bolts is "how it's done". Go ahead....ask this crag-cravin' sport-monkey:

Hey HIGH_ON_ Are you still contributing nothing of substance? Why would I want to look at an attention-whoring rebel like you? Join your buddy Kevbone on the short-bus and have the driver pick up a few of these on your way home:

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that in "real-life" you are a lot smarter than the "Kevbone" on the internet. Not so long ago, you were kind of a likeable nice, fellow....and in the last year, you've turned into a real world-class jackass...I speculate that you decided to give being a jackass a try so you could have a "legitimate" opinion about it and found out that you liked it! Here...you go... Pee-Wee Herman says: "Go home and get your shine-box!" I'm done with you.

I was never taught that. I was taught to THINK first. That's why I'm still alive. How old are you? 18 1/2? I never told anyone I was "smart". You must have arrived at that conclusion yourself. But I do know that YOU ARE WOEFULLY PHILOSOPHICALLY IMPAIRED. You also have a very short memory. a) YOUR respect means zilch to me; b) reread some of the previous pages and refresh yourself on the commentary above before you pop off; c) the only time I'd climb I.B. would be for the purpose of erasure, and if I had the time necessary to do the job properly, I certainly have the inclination. Unlike you, I don't have time on my hands to post over 5,000 mostly inane, posts on a climbing bulletin board. Away with you now!