Raindawg

Dude....lighten up...there's a potential tragedy here.

Not to be an assh*le or anything like that, but how do you and your colleagues think they entombed those mummies way up there in the cliff in the first place? I know the question is a lot like "How did the Egyptians build the Pyramids?", "How did the Anasazi build their cliff dwellings?", and "How did the Druids get the table stones on the top of Stonehenge?" and innumerable similar questions of historical significance. Just curious if you have a hypothesis as to how they might have dealt with the sh%tty rock sitmo. It's a great question, mister....and I don't have an answer for it....yet. The cliff tomb in the upcoming show didn't have a lot in it (lots of bats, though). Here's a picture of the approach to the tomb. The rock quality here makes Willis Wall look like Yosemite granite!: And here's a photo of the crack below the cliff top where the rock was too chossy-dangerous to set up a reasonably safe anchor for everyone. There's a BIG drop beneath me. In the same general area, there is another cliff tomb, one made for Hatshepsut before she became a ruler, and it contained a big, quartzite sarcophagus weighing many tons. Here's a picture of the tomb from across the wadi: The tomb entrance is in the bottom of the big slot. Note the overhanding terrain on the cliff below. The tomb had been found by robbers who were digging it out in 1916. They hung a rope down the side of the cliff. English archaeologist Howard Carter, hearing that there was some illicit action, crossed the mountains in the middle of the night, descended the rope and told the robbers to clear out, which they did. Here's part of his report: "Listening, we could hear the robbers actually at work, so I first severed their rope, thereby cutting off their means of escape, and then, making secure a good stout rope of my own, I lowered myself down the cliff. Shinning down a rope at midnight, into a nestful of industrious tomb-robbers, is a pastime which at least does lack excitement. There were eight at work, and when I reached the bottom there was an awkward moment or two. I gave them the alternative of clearing out by means of my rope, or else of staying where they were without a rope at all, and eventually they saw reason and departed. The rest of the night I spent on the spot, and, as soon as it was light enough, climbed down into the tomb again to make a thorough examination." When the sarcophagus was removed in the early 1920's, a special road had to be built to the base of the cliff and then a great effort was made to lower the super-heavy sarcophagus down the side of the cliff from where it was taken a long way through a canyon, across the desert and eventually to the Nile where it was transported to Cairo. As you can see in the picture above, they chose to enlarge the tomb's opening to remove the sarcophagus...not a choice I would have made, but they felt it necessary just to get the thing out! I spent some time in this tomb (as seen in "The Face of Tutankhamun"), climbing a fissure on the cliff top to a sloping ledge where there were some good cracks for rappel anchors. I'm pretty convinced that the ancient Egyptians didn't lower the stone sarcophagus from the top....it would involve carrying it over some really ridiculous terrain. So, the other option is to bring it up from below...but...the rappel out of the tomb's mouth to the ground is free-hanging. Just getting the thing in there to the base would have been tough and raising it up there would have required some serious engineering creativity! Scaffolding??? I think a special study of these kinds of tombs would be worthwhile...looking for clues as to how they moved these really heavy objects around on difficult terrain and up or down the sides of cliffs. And some of these tombs (such as the ones described above) are way out in the middle of nowhere, in rough desert wilderness mountains, built under natural waterfalls, so as to thwart their robbery! Just one of many big mysteries out there....

Dudes...there's climbing in the show. Otherwise I probably wouldn't post it here, although it might serve to demonstrate to some that I actually am a professional explorer rather than some punk spraying from a keyboard in mom's basement. And a lot of the show takes place in Egypt's arid Theban mountains. I've had a number of good opportunities to take advantange of my climbing skills in applications other than pure recreation. For this TV film, as noted above, we addressed the problem of trying to reach a tomb in the middle of a remote cliff. Both climbing from below and coming down to the top were really quite dangerous options although we had to investigate both possibilities. The solution to the problem is somewhat funny as I believe they will be showing in the film. (I haven't seen it yet). We got into the tomb and I was able to rig some anchors in the much better rock within to bring other people up. I visited another tomb on a higher cliff, in the same vicinity (southern wadis of the Theban Mountains) a few years ago for the BBC/A&E. In that case, I was able to put together a really nice set-up and was responsible not only for my own on-screen action, but safely supervised the BBC film crew who had never done much climbing. They loved it! The show is called "The Face of Tutankhamun"...and the cliff bits are in Episode 1 called "The Great Adventure". It's out on DVD (BBC Video)...I just recently bought a copy of it at some store in the Sea-Tac airport food/shopping area inside the concourses. Actually, the whole 4 or 5 part program was really well made.

I think the big hint is that these side-subjects should be addressed elsewhere. I was contacted earlier today by a moderator who strongly suggested that very thing. So although I appreciate the work put into the latest extended comments of "512dude" and "billcoe", I think they belong elsewhere in a separate topic. Perhaps in "Rock Climbing" or "Access"...(I don't think ethical issues should be categorized as "spray"...maybe we need a new category for controversial topics.) So...I'm not addressing this stuff here anymore...they might kick me off...again...and maybe you too.

For you archaeology (and climbing) fans, "Dwayner" will be on TV this Sunday night, 9 PM, on the Discovery Channel on a program called: "Secrets of Egypt's Lost Queen". A few years ago, "Dwayner" rediscovered a lost tomb in which was a mummy that has just been identified as one of the most famous rulers of Egypt. The show should have some dramatic footage inside some spooky, dangerous places, and includes an attempt to enter a remote desert tomb located in the middle of a chossy limestone cliff. The rock being too rotten to set up a reasonably safe rappel station for the TV production, Plan B was enacted involving the use of the world's biggest "cheater stick" to enter the tomb. (And it was a lot scarier than rappeling!) Some of you might find it all quite interesting. Here's a link: Hatshepsut Rediscovered

Some interesting tangents have been inspired by this topic, for example, the "rights" of first-ascensionists regarding "their" routes, etc. They are interesting topics but probably deserve their own separate discussions apart from Kevbone's on-going celebration of his remarkable ascent of Infinite Bastard. So, I'll offer a clarification of Kevbone's latest misunderstanding and perhaps we can move on or continue elsewhere. Raindawg wrote: Kevbone responded: Raindawg responds: Re-read what I wrote..."traditional crags and the mountains"; I'm not suggesting that Mt. Garfield is a traditional crag, it is a mountain. Now read it again...get it? Perhaps you would have better understood it if I had written "traditional crags or the mountains." Kevbone continues: You also have a very short memory because this whole matter of knowing without directly experiencing has already been hashed out elsewhere. Climbing that route will not address my attitude regarding the problems I have with its very existence. Remember this book? When you learn to read, give it a look: By the way, I also have opinions on other mountains I haven't climbed, for example, Mt. Everest: too crowded and trendy, would cost more than I'd like to spend to climb it, too much garbage, etc. Whatever.... Time to move on to something else...

Still is, gurlfren!

This is becoming a major tangent covered in depth elsewhere, but here are some brief comments (believe me, I could go on and on) to answer your inquiry: I don't believe that climbers are any longer a "small" community nor necessarily even a "community". There once was a time when it was somewhat self-policing because everybody knew, or knew of, everybody else. In the present day where climbing is mass-marketed, it's a different universe. Untold thousands of people call themselves "climbers", whether they play in the confines of a gym or are alpine big-wall masters and everything in between. Some of us find sport-climbing, with its reliance on trails of permanent anchors, to be a warped permutation of climbing, if not utterly illegitimate, and unfortunately, it has become the status quo. The learning curve is very short and the easy gratification is satisfying. I think it would be a fair statement to say that most new climbers don't have a clue that there is controversy about placing bolts or other provocative environmental issues. Some of us think a lot of the routes established today are shameful and bogus...including sport-bolting on traditional crags and in the mountains e.g. "Infinite Bliss". In such cases I think the only reason to talk to a "first ascensionist" doing these sorts of things is to ask him to desist or to clean up his mess. Additionally...most climbing areas are on public land. They aren't owned by any "first ascensionist". The obligation is to be a good steward. If I see someone damaging our environment, I might choose to address the problem with or without the blessing of such "F.A."'s. Not necessarily so. See the above. I choose not to agree to the extent that it interferes with my own sense of ethics. I hope this clarifies some things or perhaps introduces you to another perspective. you're wlcm r

Dude...I'm going to have to wait a few years until you're done pulling up!

Everyone has heard of this "rule", but: a) it's not a law; b) not everyone agrees with it, including myself; c) there will always be exceptions...the FA's, for example, were not consulted when Dan's Dreadful Direct was retrobolted nor when it was subsequently chopped. And no one's necessarily going to be consulted when IB or other routes of similar ilk get the chop. Longer than you've been alive, junior. Now go refill your sippy cup and watch a few Barney reruns.

Yes, there are lots of DUMB questions. Lots and lots and then some! That bit about "no such thing as a dumb question" is one of the great false and misleading American educational clichés that goes right near the top of the list along with "you can be anything you want!". If that were the case, there'd be about 20 million astronauts, zoo-keepers and professional NFL quarterbacks. If your teacher told you either of those things, they're just trying to make you feel good, or fill up the dead-air in the classroom with some noise...or they're just suckers and believe that crap themselves.

That's exactly what I'm saying. No permission from the F.A.'s needed. It's come to this because people put up jackass routes like Infinite Bliss and have little respect for the mountains.

Oh really? Do tell!

Why? Do you want to tell em off? Or shake his hand? Good call 512. I was thinking this too, ask permission to toss in at least a single bolt, maybe 2, in the blank section so that a party descending in the rain doesn't die. PM sent I don't think you need anybody's "permission". They have no more jurisdiction or ownership over the route on public land than you do. This "ask the first ascensionists for permission" is a load of crap...if it's a bad route, people might take action one way or another...adding to it or taking something away. And if others don't like it, they might change it back.....Lots of climbers like to think of themselves as a bunch of tough, free-thinking anarchist sorts...well this is how the game can be played. I think we should ask IB enablers to correct their mistake by erasing the whole stinkin' fiasco.

I don't think you need anybody's "permission". They have no more jurisdiction or ownership over the route on public land than you do. This "ask the first ascensionists for permission" is a load of crap...if it's a bad route, people might take action one way or another...adding to it or taking something away. And if others don't like it, they might change it back.....Lots of climbers like to think of themselves as a bunch of tough, free-thinking anarchist sorts...well this is how the game can be played. I think we should ask IB enablers to correct their mistake by erasing the whole stinkin' fiasco.

If he finds the right current, he'll be swept there whether he wants to go there or not...just like the "Kon-Tiki" raft and the many drift voyages that followed. (The Kon-Tiki stopped in Polynesia, but there was another expedition that involved a small flotilla of similar rafts that made it all the way to Australia.) Of course, if he doesn't have a sail, it will take him longer, but at least he'll be able to row his boat through the "doldrums". Happy days on the "Kon-Tiki".

Climbing in Hawaii? Fuggetaboutit! Me and another guy went to the islands several years ago with a rope and gear with some big climbing objectives involved. First and foremost, we went to Maui to climb the famous Iao Needle. We learned quickly what the scene is: crumbly choss. And the stuff that isn't old and crumbling will cut chu up! Here's a picture of "Dwayner" rappeling off the Needle and back into the jungle, lucky to be alive. We much more enjoyed the 40 mile round-trip trek to the summit of the 13,000+ summit of Mauna Loa...spectacular hiking in amazing volcanic terrain. There's some world-class hiking to be had on most of the islands (you never mentioned which one you were going to.) And there are some great guidebooks to the trails. You don't need a dang surfboard (especially if you don't know how to surf)....there's enough hiking and such to keep you occupied for years. I've been going there repeatedly since I was a small child and have found no end to the possible adventures to have there on land. Cliff jumping? You better know what you're doing. There's a few places here and there but you got to ask around.

Check out this Zombie/turtle fan....you wont' regret it. Fame was sure to come: Bill O'Reilly interviews Turtle-Boy

Dude...if you're trying to grab bragging rights for a big wall by climbing that dirty deed up on Mt. Garfield, I don't think you're going to get much support...maybe you can impress one of them pad people or them folks in the gym. And ditto if you want to call yourself an "alpinist", or an "alpine big-wall master" because said dirty-deed is located on a mountain. Kevbone to Gym Rat: "yo, yo, sup, so I climbed this alpine big wall last weekend...yo...you payin' attention? I said "BIG WALL", little man!" Gym Rat to Kevbone: "Big Wall? Is that the route with the red tape?"

Originally Posted By: i_like_sun Once again, Romeo, would you like to ask the ladies where they's gots sand? And that makes you what...young and flexible, like Steven here? Yo...you's jankin' ups alls my styles! Eh, bra! Yo give me stink-eye? Yoo want make beef?

I think the ladies posting above pretty much sum it up. (Would you like to ask them where they's gots sand?) Would you like your girlfriend and her parents to read your public bragging about they being "loaded", or "I'm going to be a hobo on the beach" crap? If I were them, I'd consider retracting the offer. Dude...think about it, then perhaps reorient your perspective and have a nice vacation. aloha! P.S. Never heard of "janking up" your "style" (is that some of that latest "gangsta" lingo?) Try some of that jive on your girlfriend's parents!

And you're sharing this with us because.....????? The whole "loaded" family waits for you: at their "cabin out in the sticks": [right on the beach!] "and get tan as sh*t!" Pick your shade, Sparky: And while you're out there "surfing" and lighting fires, don't forget to experience a nice beating from the locals. And these people who invited you are so "loaded" that they make you buy your own plane ticket???? Ya....they loaded!

Your poll is exceedingly simplistic...and cynical. How about an option for "none of the above" instead of the smart-alecky "peace in our time"? By the way, it's "Lebanon", not "Lenanon".

Check out this new invention that could help cure you of your filthy sport-climbing habit:

Or, "Good Morning", as the Chipessaw say.