Raindawg

Perhaps you'll note: a) good on him...loads of people, including myself, have been climbing that thing for years and it's an interesting and tough little low altitude bouldering problem. It shows that his jamming skills are very good indeed! I doubt if I could pull it off now in such fine form but even still, my buddies would rather scoff than nurture me with gentle caresses nor would I ever expect them to. b) you've got no sense of humor. I've met Alpinfox, and I like the guy and think he's very talented, but I feel that the little movie represents another post-modern, sanitized-for-safety climbing experience...the only thing missing is an air-bag should he fall from the crux, four feet above the ground.

Hey Alpinfox. Nice route well done. But what were those two other guys doing? They looked like they were trying to channel their mojo-energy into your body, or practicing natural childbirth, or just wanting to touch you if you'd let them. If they were spotting you, that's cheating, because years ago we used to fall off that thing and get hurt while our buddies stood by and laughed until it was their turn.

Well, apparently you don't appreciate my line of work...a few around here do, but I think I'll keep my discoveries off cc.com next time. Those who are interested can contact me and I'll be pleased to let them know what's new and exciting.

So, Dwayner and pope are responsible for being deliberately inflammatory....I think the topic of bolts lends itself to argument and passionate opinions on all sides; especially because if some of us had our way, some of your "fun" might be curtailed. But let's take a look at some of the "civil" uninflammatory discourse offered by some of the other people participating in this topic, and then perhaps you can reassess whether we're the BIG culprits: "From moderator “Off-White” in addressing “dmuja”: For a born again wannabe dwayner-lite sycophant, you sure know how to be a sport climber…and it's so cute when you act all tough 'n sh*t…What a tool. “Kevbone”, addressing “JosephH”” What an assh*le……” "What does think he is f$%king Hitler? “high-on-rock” writes: “From the casual observer, what is lacking from Don Ryan and Pope is rationality and civility. Calling people Dorks and posting Pee Wee Herman photos lowers the level of discussion far below any level that educated folks want to partake.” NOTE: Read from the beginning of the topic to this point. The discussion from me was very civil and certainly rational from my perspective…no dorks…no Pee-Wee Herman…perhaps the only naughty thing I said up to this point was that calling sport-climbs “art” was conceited. Go ahead…check it out yourself…see who’s amping it up. More from “hign-on-rock”: “gotta tell you don, it blew me away to find out that you are actually an educated person.” “The sad part is that you are the only one who does not realize that the high horse has stumbled and you are falling.” “Give us your information Pope. Come on girlfriend, be brave." JayB joins the fray: “Bill - don't distract them. With every post you coax out of them you're depriving them of a morsel of time, energy, or concentration that they'll need so bring about the closure of all sport climbing areas in the Northwest.” Ken4ord contributes: “BTW poop….” Kevbone addressing “Puma”: “Another asinine comment…..” “Well…..tough sh*t…..” Dechristo chimes in: “what a dork” A few more Kevbonisms: “......you need to get your head examined.” “Wow......Pope.....that was a bitch slap if I ever saw one. Getting crushed at your own game.....wow!” “Oh man Pope......getting worked over eh?” RuMR: “Dwayner and his sidekick poop are all about themselves...only themselves...and they will couch their attitude in a "more ethically pure" bullsh*t frame.” “Come on, quit being a dick... f&ck, man, you and dwayner just make everything f&cking so black and white...get a f&ckin' life and take up a worthier cause...” “cue raindawg with a richard simmons circle jerk poster...” RichardNoggin: “YO POOP……get a life…STFU." “…too bad you cant see through your own sh*t”. More from “high-on-rock”: “The problem with Pope and Ryan is that they try to use the anonymity of the internet to be jerks without cost. No one has a problem with the views they put forth, merely with the junior high manner through which they put forth the views, and the “holier than thou” condescending tone they use. From here on out I believe I may send their identities by PM to folks upon whom they anonymously piss. Perhaps with a lack of anonymity comes accountability, and through accountability comes temperance.” Yup...it's all Dwayner and Pope...gettin' the folks all hot and bothered and MAKING THEM express the poetry cited above.

Interesting idea....but who gets to decide what is controversial and what is not? The Thought Police.

I'm not arguing anything. I'm stating a fact...and I've stated it to YOU in person before, at which time I've told you at least two things to your face: 1) I don't care if you like my style. If you knew me better you'd know that I'm satirical and enjoy humor. I don't particularly care for your style...so what. And by the way, you might find some of the pictures "stupid"...but others find them entertaining and I have often used them to visually tell stories...perhaps you can't appreciate that. 2) Your mystical abilities to discern one's intents and purposes (e.g. "I don't think so" above) are weak....weak indeed. Don't even try. I wholeheartedly disagree. I consider myself "moderately inflammatory" at best compared to some of the outrageous abuse (which I often experience myself) on this site. Require that everyone on cc.com use their real name and I'll go for it.

You aren't exposing anyone. See what trogdor wrote above. The name isn't "Ryan", it's Don Ryan...which a good many ALREADY know. But you can call me "Dwayner" or "Raindawg"... A lot of people use "avatars" for the reasons you quote me above. I'll gladly express my viewpoints in the same way, in person, to anyone. "high-on-rock" or whatever...very uncool to post the contents of private messages...you are obviously someone who can't be trusted. You got a problem with "my girl" "pope"?...take it up with him. Now wasn't that "fun"? - "Raindawg"

Me and pope should create a coloring book explanation for the likes of you. Or should it contain flow-charts? P.S. Methinks you use the word "methinks" too much....that's like, so 16th century! "Oh, how doth clippeth bolts of great derision!"

Wrong. I understand him perfectly. Why don't you?

Hey Forrest Gump, Jr. You appently understand NOTHING! Even I believe that bolts have a place, but they should be EXTREMELY RARE, not the substance of the means which is the way of sport-climbing. Sit down and think once in a while instead of riding on the coat-tails of someone else's weak attempt at derision. Did your comment above make you feel good? "I'm runnin' to make fun o' "pope" cuz I doesn't grasps what he's be sayin!"

"pope" say: Makes me wanna holler!!!

Then Billcoe say: Mr. Billcoe...you really lost it with that one. Billcoe say: It doesn't matter if they've placed or clipped a thousand (yet another smokescreen....turn the issue into a hypcrisy debate rather than addressing the issue.) Go ahead....ask them what they think. And on this site, I recall the names that were addressed at Mr. Chouinard after his comments about sport-climbing were quoted a few years ago. I also recall the names I was called previously when I cited the inspirational ethical considerations promoted in the 1972 Chouinard catalog.

Check out what happens when a couple of sport-climbers go exploring for some drill bits!

Somebody say "B_LT's"? Careful dude! I heard that THE MAN is catchin' on and already doing internet searches on BOL's and OLT's....it's only a matter of time before they learn that not everybody agrees! I see that Mr. Billcoe brings up the old smokescreen of ...."ya travel on roads, don't ya!" Here's the alternative to no trails and roads: By the way, how many jokers on this site asking for information on how to effectively drill holes are aware of, or care about, the ethical issues? I'd say not many...because drilling has become the status quo. As I've stated many times before, I believe every individual bolt should be an ethical decision and placed only as a last resort. Drilling at will seems to be the norm now....a blank piece of rock seems for many to be an invitation to "create" a "route". Why not follow a natural line and take your gear home with you when you're done? Why not top-rope the majority of routes at places like Vantage? Why not just leave the rock alone if the alternative is to drill the snot out of it and leave a permanent metallic trail? Sport climbing is a disaster! By the way, it ain't just me, "pope", and a handful of others living around here that think so. In the bigger picture...go ahead, ask Yvon Chouinard, Rheinhold Messner, and Doug Scott....(now let's wait for the "youngsters" - if they've ever heard of these guys - to call them old-school, burned-out losers.)

I guess it's O.K., then, if I build a series of pleasant picnic tables up in The Enchantments. They'll probably take up no more space than 1x10^18th of the total of national forest lands. There easier to spot visually, but the tables will probably serve more users than bolted lines ever will. Whatever. By the way, regulatory agencies have been awakened about bolts and other climber abuses, e.g. restrictions at Joshua Tree, Arches, etc. and more to come. Hey! I actually agree for once with Mr. Feck! Sound advice, mister. You're right...it has been pretty much a waste talking about such issues on the internet. But not a complete waste, because I know that many folks have been exposed to other perspectives that aren't normally offered elsewhere, and I've found that some have actually changed their opinions on certain subjects as a result of being exposed to the arguments.

Hey Wise-guy: Why do YOU think YOU can define our agenda and methodology? Why do YOU think YOU should be informed of the same? Don't count on it. Sit down.

Read the bolt war article cited above and then tell me if you think there is a "concensus". On the local level, perhaps there are scattered examples, but certainly not in the Pacific Northwest in general: consider the "local" poster-children: Dan's Dreadful Direct, Infinite Bliss and the Dishman controversy...take look at those volatile disputes...it ain't pretty. Consider the varying attitudes about bolting in such places as Icicle Canyon. Furthermore, I don't think you can achieve a "consensus" without a "community", and I don't think such a community exists. Who's a member of the "climbing community"? Does this include the thousands of folks who buy rock shoes for some once or twice a year top-roping, or who climb mostly in gyms?

This reminds me of a few years ago when the dirty deed known as the Infinite Bastard route on Mt. Garfield was just coming to the attention of many. There was fear that The Man was monitoring cc.com and would realize that there was no concensus on the issues of bolts. Paranoia spread that The Man could do a search of the site using the word "bolts" and learn that not everybody loves sport-bolting thus spoiling the ambitions of the dominant advocacy groups! To keep the on-line conversation in stealth-mode, some folks started referring to bolts as B-LT's in order to thwart the search engines and prevent the wider truth from being known. "pope" posted this wonderful parody picture showing all the B-LT's on one little section of "Exit 38": The tasty sandwiches were pasted over pictures of the real bolts as pointed out here, showing the kind of mess some of us find offensive (there are actually more bolts in the picture than he circled):

Who said outlaw sport-climbing? I'd just like to see it banned from PUBLIC land. Those who insist on practicing that form of "climbing" should perhaps find some private land that they can choose to damage. Go buy some rocks. How 'bout the "Washington Climbers Coalition" and the "Access Fund" raise some money and buy Frenchman's Coulee....it's already been wrecked and they could put a fence around it, charge admission and even keep out trad climbers if they want, and then wreck it some more. Didn't they buy a couple of rocks in Icicle Canyon? As public land, though, I'd rather see places like Vantage shut down to ALL climbing until the place is restored, rather than allow more bolt trails. What? Not enough natural lines in Vantage to keep climbers happy? The face routes are too long to top-rope or belay from the top? Not enough to satisfy the uncontrollable urge to drill???

By the way, this isn't a hypocricy debate. You can clip a thousand bolts and still be ashamed of yourself. The hypocrisy issue is one of those ad hominen fallacies that does nothing other than to muddy the waters to distract from the issues themselves.

Actually, I agree with much of what "dmuja" has to say, and my point of compromise between carrying on the status quo or shutting down the climbing area would be to stop the bolting. (check out what has been done in Joshua Tree and elsewhere). Joshua Tree Bolts Climb trad with few bolts or top-rope your "special project", but unrestrained defilement (i.e. sport-bolting/grid bolting) of public property shouldn't be allowed.

Hey class-envious "Dechristo", a.k.a. "poorly named". Get a clue and learn when to shut up. Perhaps we should ask pope's question once again: Care to answer that? Better yet, just go away before you embarass yourself yet more. I have little to add without throwing pearls to a swine, Mr. "of Christ" . I'm done with you. And thank you, billcoe.

a) he's not in the "public eye". It's reported in Rock & Ice Magazine and the general public probably doesn't know, nor care about the issue and its complexities. b) vandalism? one could argue that the original vandalism was perpetrated by the bolters and Mr. Nichols is erasing the ugly graffiti. c) art? How conceited. Anyone know where we can send Mr. Nichols a few bucks? He probably had a few legal fees from being railroaded by the local "Climbers Coalition". (Did they have their own lawyers as members of that group?) And, if you think the bolting controversy is just a fabrication of Dwayner, pope and a few others, check out the little link at Rock & Ice: North American Bolt Wars Read the whole thing, and the examples, but here's a few quotes for starters:

No dude...my opinions in both realms are "well thought out arguments based upon facts, experience, and reason". My experience in both archaeology and climbing have spanned decades. I have worked professionally and taught in both fields. You might not appreciate my perspectives, but you aren't required to.

This really isn't the place to discuss archaeological ethics but I'll give you just a couple of insights. The whole business about messing with dead people is a big deal in archaeology. When I teach courses on the subject, it is one of the questions we deal with: "Are archaeologists just grave-robbers with a more sophisticated philosophy?" I offer various perspectives on the subject from: "have some respect for the people who buried them" to "who cares....they're dead!" and other viewpoints in-between. For those who have no problem with disturbing burials, I ask them if it's O.K. to dig up there grandmother because I might find her somehow interesting. Some change their minds, some don't care. It's a huge issue among Native Americans and federal law requires that all museums inventory their collections of human remains and repatriate them to tribes at their request. In Egypt, speaking for my own work, the tombs I've excavated in the Valley of the Kings were all horribly robbed and the mummies stripped and ravaged (for precious objects) by robbers in ancient times. My preference has always been to keep the mummies in the tombs in which they were found rather than shipping them off to a museum for storage or public display. If you happened to see the show last night, then you saw that the mummy now identified as Hatshepsut was resting quietly in a wooden coffin I had built for her, in her closed tomb, until she was removed by the Egyptian authorities for examination. I think now she's currently on public display in Cairo. In another tomb nearby, we also built a special box to hold the remains we found there of two torn apart mummies and they are still there. When I'm done excavating and documenting a tomb, it's always in a MUCH better condition than which it was found and the bodies are left in a dignified state rather than how I found them: thrown around on the floor in the debris of their anciently destroyed burials. The many mummies stored or on display in Cairo are the remains of the ancestors of the living Egyptian people and the government authorities set the policy. Nobody seems to really mind that much over there although several years ago, there was some talk of building a national mausoleum to intern all of the ancient royal mummies. As far as bolts are concerned....THESE ARE TOTALLY UNRELATED ISSUES...not even apples and oranges. I'm not even willing to debate this stuff with you because: a) this is an inappropriate venue, b) I won't see my professional field relegated to "spray" or drug down into the usual cesspool. The nature of your comments above suggests it's already heading that way: ("Yet placing a bolt on a remote mountain is an ethical catastrophe to Raindog. Confuses my little mind.") I hope you found a few interesting points in the above.