Raindawg

Hey Jackass! How about taking your uniform off and sit in the corner for awhile until you're ready to join civilization.

Just had a conference call between So Cal and Western WA. and both pope and I solidly agree that Mr. Mark McKillop is hereby awarded the honorific and highly esteemed title of Dwayner 'n pope's ALPINE BUDDY OF THE YEAR FOR 2007. Congratulations, young man, and we's expects you not to follow the questionable path of the original [mistake] recipient. Aloha, our brother! Dwayner 'n pope. Trophy Wife: Your Trophy:

Dont you mean "American Academy of Brain Washing"? And I wont see you there. Kevbone....your ignorance seems to know no bounds..... Here is the mission statement of the American Academy of Religion..(from www.aarweb.org) "Mission Statement" In a world where religion plays so central a role in social, political, and economic events, as well as in the lives of communities and individuals, there is a critical need for ongoing reflection upon and understanding of religious traditions, issues, questions, and values. The American Academy of Religion's mission is to promote such reflection through excellence in scholarship and teaching in the field of religion. As a learned society and professional association of teachers and research scholars, the American Academy of Religion has over 10,000 members who teach in some 1,500 colleges, universities, seminaries, and schools in North America and abroad. The Academy is dedicated to furthering knowledge of religion and religious institutions in all their forms and manifestations. This is accomplished through Academy-wide and regional conferences and meetings, publications, programs, and membership services. Within a context of free inquiry and critical examination, the Academy welcomes all disciplined reflection on religion–both from within and outside of communities of belief and practice–and seeks to enhance its broad public understanding."

I'd amend that to "some academic circles." I'm in such circles and I'm not buying it. The American Academy of Religion has been around for many decades and is alive and "well". There next conference (which is huge) will be in Chicago in November 2008. See you there? Some of the historical events of the Torah (Exodus, etc.) took place within just a few hundred years prior to King David.

You don't know from Torah....really....you don't! Who taught you this was a fool. Please don't. Your seminary (oy!) or whatever ignorant training was at least partially a waste of time.

Someone must tell you lest you persist unaware: You are a GENUINE EMBARRASSMENT. Anyone want to go climbing with this Tvashtarkatena guy???

Dude...get real. There was very little fun here...this "conversation" hits a new low for cc.com...and that's saying something. Dude...you're speaking for yourself. Reread the first ugly responses and then some....bitterness towards you and your faith was expressed abundantly, to the very end. The moderators should have kept your announcement in the "Climbing Partners" forum and locked it or halted the responses when it got ugly. Your perfectly legitimate original post didn't deserve what it got. I suggest that you be very selective. Not everyone is safe nor fun. Shalom and good luck!

You want to talk about evolution? Look what happened to this topic! It started with a sincere guy advertising for climbing team-mates and DEVOLVED into a bunch of anti-religious ranting and intolerance by a bunch of his fellow "climbers".

"Climbers", like everybody else, can politely say "no" and/or walk away from folks promoting whatever...whether it's a political petition signing campaign or a friendly Mormon missionary. All this talk of "Jesus in your face" is nonsense. Walk away or otherwise ignore it or give it a listen if you choose. And yes, it is your choice how you react to people. By the way, "Vertical Hiker", if you had some idealist notion that all "climbers" are somehow "cool", "special", "tolerant", or "with-it", you've probably discovered the truth by now....they aren't...some are, but it's obviously not a universal trait that goes with the "sport". As I've long argued, the so-called "Brotherhood of the Rope" doesn't exist anymore...maybe it never did.

Got to bring the Jews into it now, eh? Guess what! You don't know from free-thinking! Good idea! How about Antarctica? Really cool! And a great place to contemplate your meaningless existence in the midst of G-d's spectacular creation.

I can't believe that I'm mostly agreeing with Sexy-Cocoa! As many climbers act as if they're anarchists on public land, rap-bolting and installing their permanent metallic "routes" to their heart's content (itself an act of disrespect for the land), then why should they expect anyone to respect some sort of temporary or long-term personal priority or faux-"ownership" of this offense? "Gosh! Someone poached my sporty-route!" BOO-HOO!

6 months in jail.

Last I heard, he was drunk in London after yet another triumphant archaeological expedition in Egypt. Beer....London....good!

The "host country" in this case bottles three different kinds of beer and several varieties of wine. Lots of people drink here and aside from Muslims who can choose to do what they like, there is a sizable Christian population (at least 7 million) and loads of tourists who appreciate the beverages.. Sorry I'm not as dumb as you must think I am.

Get your history straight, moron. They're only 3500 years old and they don't have pockets.

I'm in Luxor, Egypt....and I'MMMMMMMMMM Drunk! Beer...ain't the best...rumor has it that they water the local horses on one side of town and fill the bottles at a stable on the other side...hold the bottle up to the light and you might even see some stray hay! Who cares....Mahmoud, pour me another one.

I think the imposition belongs to those who think they can do whatever they want to disfigure public property. Addendum to pope: Can I arbitrarily build a picnic table in a lovely spot on public land in the Enchantments? No. Can I arbitrarily carve my girlfriend's name in a tree on public land in Mt. Rainier National Park? No. Can I arbitrarily chop down a tree in a national forest on public land because it obstructs my view? No. (you can go through a public process that regulates OUR land and see what you can add or detract.) What makes you think that you can arbitrarily add permanent fixtures to features on public land? By the way, backpackers, whom some deride as a bunch of hiking wimps, had it figured out decades ago....LEAVE LITTLE TRACE. Not everything NEEDS to be climbed. Find a naturally protected line, climb clean, place your bolts few and far apart if at all, top-rope it, or find another sport that's less destructive. Bolt-dependent sport-climbing is an environmental disgrace. Wake up. Everyone whines about garbage on Everest but at least the garbage on Everest can be picked up without using a crowbar, unlike a bolt, which is intended to be a permanent installation on the (usually public) landscape by someone who fancies themselves to be a "creator" of something special. Sit down!

Thanks, Brother Crimper, for your up-front evaluation. Raindawg would say, "if you must develop...put up a couple of top-rope anchors somewhere accesible from above, if you must, and save the crag from a plethora of bolt trails. That's what he would say.

You were recently caught leaving a motel room with Aunt Bee. SPORT CLIMBER!

ditch-digger

I love it when you speak for other people. Please refrain from telling me what “everybody” thinks. What do you think? Dude...I ain't telling you what "everybody" thinks. I'm edumacating you on the philosophy of the ground-up ascent ethic. For your weak-sauce comment above, you have earned yourself a special image: No, I'm going on an expedition until early December and pope has a family to take care of. Even so, trail-building on your local crag is so low down on my priority list I can't even find it...looks like you're going to have to take it on yourself.

Hey Rain….have you ever ridden on an elevator or escalator before? Utterly irrelevant....we're talking about climbing. Such analogies only obscure the issue....and you can make a million similar ones. And yes, I've even taken an airplane rather than crawling naked over broken glass to the east coast. Are you speaking for the entire climbing community on this one? It certainly was the general trend, and I was part of it....you definitely weren't and perhaps weren't even born yet. What was done “much safer and easier that way”? Are you saying if drilled by hand it would be safer? Not sure what you are saying? The point I'm making is that those who believed in the ground-up ascent ethic could have often made their lives a lot safer and easier if they had chosen to adopt a top-down ethic. They could have rappeled down, as is the norm today. That was always an option on suitable crags. Instead, most chose to place their bolts, often few and far between, on lead, where there was a stance, or perhaps a flake where they could temporarily protect themselves with a hook while they drilled. The climbs tended to follow more natural lines, rather some vertical line of artificial anchors placed in a row to create a "route". They believed in ascent, recognizing that any boob could establish a "route" or a line of bolts from the top down...history has proved this to be true, untold thousands of times in the last couple of decades.

Wasn’t aware that you’ve thrown in the towel already. It explains a lot. I’ve read plenty of history and I wasn’t trying to be complete. I find your comments irrelevant to the present day…sport climbing is no longer an innovation. In my opinion, it was bogus then and it’s still bogus…regardless of whether “roped belaying was decried by some in the early 20th century”. There is nothing to suggest that “climbing” is on some sort of progressive evolutionary path…sport-climbing, in my opinion, is an example of “devolution”. Nor does widespread acceptance necessarily make it correct. Sounds like you’re lazy…that’s what a lot of sport-climbing seems to be about…CONVENIENCE. Drill the crap out of the rock and leave trails of closely-spaced permanent alterations because IT”S MORE FUN and easier than the alternatives that leave less impact. No, “Pee-Wee Herman” is reserved as a comical response to immature taunts by guys like you. Nonsense…they believed that one should ascend…that is, climb from the bottom up….not rappel down and set your anchors. It could have been done much safer and easier that way, even if drilled by hand…but it was a choice. Isn’t that what climbing is all about? Ascent? Two words from my comments above…”lazy”, “ascent”. What a curious thing to say. Neither pope nor I live in Seattle and I certainly wouldn’t want to stay there.

Dude...I won't even try to speculate why you chose to write that nor why you thought it was clever. You might think that our (environmental/ethical) opinions are a joke....but you're smart enough and been around long enough to understand the issues and our perspective of it. Enjoy your drill...why not put it to better use putting an addition onto your house or some other PRIVATE useful purpose that won't disgrace PUBLIC land.