Raindawg

Not necessarily....they'll just make the shoes stickier, much how the appearance of Firé's and their technological offspring produced a grand leap in "difficulty". Try climbing some of those big numbers in E.B.'s. Hard or impossible, ain't it. Even harder if you refuse to hang-dog and rehearse. Make the shoes stickier and change the rules and there y'all go! I, like Joseph, know enough about the nature of the route, it's location and the style of its creation to utterly oppose it both conceptually and in terms of its physical existence. Assuming the information about the route is accurate, and we all seem to agree on the basic "facts", then how will climbing the route detract from the fact that it is a rap-placed sport-trail on a mountain in the wilderness? While you're at it, see the comments offered to "Kevbone" a few pages back on the bogus notion of "don't knock it until you've tried it."

Aren't you tired of your "rebel" routine? It's as worn-out as kevbone's repetitive "it's all about ego" mantra. Seems like you're the one looking for attention here, mister. If you don't like what I have to say....IGNORE the posts that say, "Raindawg". It's your choice. You got anything of substance to say about the Infinite Bliss controversy? No? Maybe the spray section will meet your needs better.

what a load of crap, IMO. You can't take a sh*t on the sidewalk, and then tell me to just walk around it. Very well stated! (especially a public sidewalk)

Smith Rocks is already ruined. Someday, when the climbing "community" matures, they might wake up and see the mess they made and fix it. The legality of I.B. is only part of the issue. My views go beyond the powerdrill and what the law "lets" you do....bolts should be rare everywhere and it makes me ill to see long trails of them make there way from the crags to the mountains. This should not be allowed. You can look at this a couple of ways: you might see the bolts on I.B. as an act of creation or some sort of "art" that feeds your craving for adventure. I, on the other hand, see their removal as an act of restoration, i.e., picking up the selfish litter left by others. Know your cc.com history? Seems to me that Captain Caveman and company got booted off here for making threats. Ain't a place for it here. Gary Busey might just say, "Tone it down, eh Sparky?"

Well here's the URL but it looks like the censors might have gotten to it REALLY FAST because it seems to have disappeared. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/plab/data/514/1826CCdotCom.jpg Basically, it was a photo of a room full of climbers, everyone of them giving the big finger...it kind of went well with my original comments about "we're wild and crazy klimbers!" attitudes. The picture has been proudly posted on cc.com before...but I guess The Man didn't like the context here. We're free!!! Yes we are!!! (As long as we agree with The Man!)

No, man...they's be an assortment of your fellow climbers.

This "discussion" has turned away from the topic: from the legitimacy of "Infinite Bliss" and its future, to a hypocrisy attack on Joseph. How about less of that and more about why the route may very well disappear? In this case, the offenders might be asked to clean up the mess they made or someone else might do it for them. I suppose the sh*t you're referring to is "Infinite Bliss", which is reminiscent of dogs crapping in a public park. What this topic is showing is that the issue of this "route" remains UNRESOLVED, despite what the "Washington Climbers Coalition" or whoever would like folks to think. P.S. As an aside: for all of you who think you're extra-special and can just do whatever, wherever you like because you're a "climber", check out the small, satirical topic in "Spray" called "Watch Out World! Here comes climbers!".

Yah, man. Almost forget. WE'RE CLIMBERS! and we're wild and crazy and reckless, hard-drinking, wild-partyin', don't-mess-with-me-and-you-can-shove-your-opinion-up-your-butt-tough-talkin', hippie-van drivin', hanging out with a bone-in-the-nose girlfriend with hairy armpits, Whillians/Burgess Brothers/Vulgarian emulating, spit-in-the-face-of-the-reaper, buccaneers of the vertical frontier, matadors of the quick draw, desperados of the bouldering pad, Yee ha! and we don't care 'bout nothin cuz we're climbers! So don't even suggest that what I have to say might be weak because...I'M A CLIMBER, and I'm wild and crazy and reckless, hard-drinking, wild-partyin'.... Whatever... :rolleyes:

Add them to the list.

BOLTS: THE FINAL WORD

Ya, pal..they do...why would you ask such a thing? We don't question you. Dwayner not only climbs, he teaches climbing, and is a professional explorer. "pope" doesn't get out quite as much as before due to family priorities, but not only is he an excellent climber, he's also a maniac on a mountain bike. He and Dwayner regularly train together through trail and hill running. _________________________________________________________ I don't think the Forest Service has been, or was, exposed to the full range of opinions on this subject, so I hope somebody there is reading this dog and pony show. I've said what I have to say for the moment and nothing I've heard in response has swayed me from my original opinion. Interesting "discussion", however; a combination of some of the most uninformed, dumbest stuff I've read on cc.com along with some serious, thoughtful and passionate commentary. The story ain't over yet!

No, ethics are a collective thing, e.g., it's not kosher to marry your sister or steal from your boss's safe. Reality check: we're on the internet, and nobody has yet prevented you from ascending your beloved sport-climbs. If a compelling argument can be made to the power-authorities, perhaps your cheap fun will be curtailed. Isn't that how "democracy" works? Perhaps you can convince the power-authorities that you can drill the crap out of any blank piece of stone you desire...go to it, sparky...work the system...it's a marketplace of ideas (ideally) and unfortunately you've got to compete with mine. Wow, rape of the environment for cheap gratification...cool concept. How about retaining some dignity and climbing Mt. Garfield with a minimum, or perhaps no, bolts.

How about $100 per illegitimate bolt. That might have an affect.

How is it a step down? I'm not defending them, even so, stylistic practices such as hang-dogging, take a far second place to actual physical abuse of the environment like sport-bolting and its dependence upon permanently altering the landscape with bolt trails....if you want to rehearse repeatedly, swing around in your harness, and convince yourself you're capable of climbing something you're not..then enjoy the illusion...I think it's weak, but it doesn't really affect the turf that my grandchildren might encounter. Enjoy you're "red-pointing", but never forget that you weren't up to the challenge. It was, and is, an ideal, and I am promoting it as a good one, whether you or anyone else can live up to its demands. Sport climbing is its antithesis.

Are not you, D.Ryan, making all kinds of assmputions about the intents and motivations of those involved in this discussion, or those who according to you want "risk free" climbing and care nothing for the environment becaues they apparently value their own need for immediate gratification over learnign to climb the "right way," or whatever it is that you've written? Damn straight, "pal", and how about reading "whatever it is" that I've written before you comment. Including all the "assmputions" and "learnign". You're probably itching to ban me again because you can't stand my opinion....whatever. By the way, you can refer to me as "Raindawg", mattp, because if I wanted to post under my own name, I would have chosen to do so. (I suppose I should have referred to you as "mattp" rather than "mperkins", but I got the avatar wrong and nonetheless assumed that you were comfortable with everyone knowing your identity and posing as a moderator and such, because "mattp" is your real name...if not, I apologize.)

I came of age in the '70's and was climbing beginning in 1973. I had nothing to do with the creation of sport-climbing, and those who were I consider to be sell-outs. "Sell-outs from what?", you might ask. The '70's were a time when climbing was in transition, from piton-banging siege-climbing to a new ethic promoting minimal impact: "clean climbing". Check out the philosophy in the classic and inspiring article in the 1972 Chouinard catalog: "The whole natural art of protection" by Doug Robinson. Read it on-line here: Clean Climbing Manifesto Along with other outdoor recreationalists, climbers were beginning to seriously realize that it was unethical to trash the environment. "Leave little trace" should require little explanation here (but then again, maybe it does....) Lots of bold ascents were being made, leaving the pitons and drills at home. (See for example, the article by Galen Rowell in the June 1974 National Geographic: "Climbing Half Dome the Hard Way") and numerous back-issues of "Mountain" magazine which reported a lot of the advances. As a side-benefit to the new ethic, level of difficulty improved as the gear designed for clean-climbing could usually be placed with one hand and "Friends" allowed placements in parallel-sided cracks, roofs, etc. Lots of great and difficult routes were being put up in this style all over the U.S. Bolts, if they were to be used at all, were to be put in by hand, from the ground up, and few and far between; an ethic which certainly curtailed a lot of their use. Back then, you tried a climb, and if you were up for it, you just might make it. If you fell, you started over...usually from the bottom or came back when you were up to the challenge. The now-accepted charade of hang-doggin was seriously frowned-upon. Sometime around the end of the 70's, early '80's, some dirty stunts begin to appear, most notably at the Smith Rocks. Guys like Alan Watts, to their everlasting shame, started their drilling. I thought the whole concept as it evolved was appalling...from the promiscuous use of bolts, often placed on rappel, to a new type of sieging..."red-pointing" and hang-dogging...with unlimited rehearsals after which one could claim to have ascended a "big" number. [Note: I separate the harmless stylistic affronts - "red-pointing" etc., from the truly serious methodological issues: leaving permanent bolt trails in the wake.] The manufacturers, retailers and magazine-makers loved it! Sport-climbing's cheap, dumbed-down learning curve and limited risks gave it mass-appeal and the sale of shoes, ropes, harnesses, etc. sky-rocketed. Yeah! More $$$$$$! Who cares about crowds or grid-bolting! $$$$$ And now gyms feed into the system as nurseries for new "climbers", sent "outdoors" with little or no ethical training. In my opinion, rock climbing lost its soul when sport-climbing became the dominant paradigm. I spent time at Smith Rocks before it became sporto....it was a different, and I'd say much nicer, place altogether. In terms of environmental ethics, sport-climbing belongs to the Dark Ages: a giant step backwards. I don't believe it's too late to clean up the mess...which is one reason I continue to present my views on places like cc.com, whether you like to read them or not, or like my style of presentation or not. Most people don't want to hear it, because acknowledging the impact of their beloved sport-climbing will force them to confront the fact that what they do for fun has some serious issues attached. Many people have never heard that it's even controversial!....the manufacturers, retailers and magazines don't want you to think about it too much because maybe you won't buy all the crap they're trying to sell you.$$$$$$ Access interest groups who tolerate sport-routes don't want private land-owners to know the various sides of the debate because they're afraid they won't be allowed access....which is fine with me. You can't turn back the clock, but you can try to correct the mistakes of the present and make a better future. And the future ain't all about YOU, it's about keeping things nice for your grandchildren's grandchildren. Call me "crotchedy" or whatever other names you've thrown at me. I'm not ashamed of my ideals. Maybe you should look closer at your own. By the way, I hope the Forest Service and other interested parties are reading EVERY BIT of this "discussion"...it will give them a nice taste of at least two sides of the issue and give them some insights on some of the characters who call themselves "climbers".

Nonsense...you're starting to sound like M.Perkins with his self-proclaimed swami-like powers to discern intents and motivations. Yes, I believe sport-climbing sucks both in style and method and I think it's a great shame that is has become the status quo in so many rock climbing areas. You can hang off bolts all day and convince yourself that you're doing something important if you like ("style"), but sport climbing's dependence upon lines of typically closely-spaced lines of permanently installed bolts ("method") becomes an environmental issue. Although I think most of the common bolted arenas are utterly ridiculous and pathetic, I certainly draw the line at its intrusion into the mountains and wilderness. I own the wilderness too. You can't chop down trees to build a picnic table in the Enchantments or construct a summer cabin in Mt. Rainier National Park: we're trying to keep those places nice for generations upon generations...so why should you be allowed at your whim to drill lines of permanent anchors up the side of Mt. Garfield? Are you some sort of "it's all good" cultural relativist? I'm not. It ain't "all good". I see sport-climbing as trashing the rocks/mountains, much of which are public resources. Boulderers? Who cares...you're free to be lame in the USA. Mixed climbers? Same story...as long as they're not leaving a mess in their wake, they can do what they want whether I think it's "valid" or not. If you think environmentalism in the long-term protection of a finite resource is fascist....so be it.

Well.....that is how you are acting. Moralizing and then hiding behind you cloak and dagger. I will say it again....with as much as you talk shit abou this route....I get the feeling you would not stand up and admit you chopped it. If that is the case....you are a pussy....whimp....or should I say coward. We might as well agree to disagree. You aren't a worthy discussion partner. I will ignore you from now on.

No Rain....if you moralize about this sh*t in the open, then you better chop in the open or you are a huge PUSSY. Are we back in Jr. High School???? Sit down and raise your hand when you have something of substance to say.

No thanks. I can't imagine that we'd have a very good time.

Don't pretend you know what we're up to. Are we required to report to you? And you know why most people don't use their real names on the internet? it's because they choose to remain somewhat anonymous amongst a bunch of strangers, at least several of whom seem to believe that violence settles arguments. (Didn't you, yourself post for years under some other name?) It's the same reason that some of the bolt-choppers we know work in stealth. I assume you're talking about me, pope and Joseph...I've never met the latter but I agree almost wholeheartedly with what he says on this topic. Now let's talk about YOU. I replied to your comments above and instead of offering a rebuttal, you start calling us names...I guess you had nothing better to say? Lots of folks calling themselves "climbers" these days seem to be ethically and environmentally ignorant. We can reminisce about a clean-climbing revolution that partially fizzled when the dumb-downed attractions of sport-climbing became the dominant paradigm, or how a "leave few traces" philosophy is now the mantra of hikers and other outdoor enthusiasts but has apparently been lost on many climbers who feel they can drill any chunk of public rock that amuses them. And we can dream about and work on a future where climbing cleans up its act. You really have no idea! You got your "Raindawg", "pope" and "Joseph" spy-cams set up? Got time to go into the mountains when you're busy all day monitoring us? How about some substantive comments?

It doesn't work that way. If it's on public land, it's not YOUR rock/mountain ...it's OURS, and if other owners feel that you are desecrating it, we're going to make some noise or do something about it. The Forest Service's job is to oversee public lands. It's part of their job to address such issues, even if YOU find it low priority. That's exactly not the issue. O'Reilly seems to have many fans. I prefer the terms "atrocity" or "abomination" myself.

Yes you do….or you would not be battling me and others on the web about a frickin sport climb. Huh? Let me also recommend a class in logic. Kevbone: Do you actually think this whole discussion is about personal respect, or perhaps your favorite default explanation, "ego"? Get a clue. Here's another volume to add to your list:

Kevbone's ignorant, thoughtless, kneejerk response: Another thoughtless ignorant response from Kevbone: The very notion of this "route" offends me from its location to its style. (And I could care less if there were "quality" moves on "awesome" rock...which apparently there are not...as JosephH notes, "the quality of climbing on IB is wholly and completely irrelevant"). There is no need to physically experience this attrocity. By the way, you really need to take some sort of basic Philosophy 101 type course; it might help clarify some of your thinking before you blat out some of your foolishness. For example, one need not personally experience heroin, suicide, or swimming in an open sewer to have an opinion on the subject, nor be a woman to have an opinion about abortion or breast cancer, nor spend time in Auschwitz to have an opinion about the Holocaust. This book might give you a start: I don't require nor need your respect. It's a shame that you find my attitude rebellious; I would hope more people would share my views and maybe they do or will. Turned on? If you're a dude, you're not my type. By the way, it's Raindawg...it would have been so easy to have been rude and changed the first letter of the word "rock" in your phony internet name...but I held off.

Wrong. Joseph speaks for many of us who are very unappreciative of sport-rape being transferred to the mountains. (and by the way, not all members of the so-called "community" participate on forums such as cc.com). It's not a delusion. You don't have to share the opinion...you have yours and we have ours....and just because you disagree, and it might be a "minority" viewpoint, doesn't mean we are automatically wrong, nor that we will go away. Stellar? The route is a piece of crap that should be an embarassment to anyone who cares about the mountains. Keep your opinion, sir, and we'll keep ours, until we find something utterly compelling to sway us otherwise. good day sir!