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Yeah, that Bachar/Yerian route? Total sport climb dude. You'll notice I never mentioned sport in my post, dude. Bolted climbs are not trad IMHO, regardless of whether they are ground-up, onsight, and bolted by hand from hooks or rappel bolted with a Hilti. If your trad defn is different then post it and let the discussion continue. This is exactly the point I think is up for debate. People typically try to think of climbing as divided between sport and trad. Something has to budge because neither the Grand Wall nor Dreamer is a sport route. I wouldn't even call Silent Running a sport route. Infinite Bliss is no sport route. I don't think that is debateable. But if you argue they aren't trad routes either... what are they? I think that a climb establshed ground-up, bolted on lead and by hand can qualify to be called trad. "Trad" means "traditional" right? What is the tradition? When was the term invented? I feel that it would be harder to get more "traditional" than some of the hard lines put up in Yosemite in the 60s, for example. There are more than a few bolt ladders on those. To me the essence of trad is not the type of protection used, but the spirit required. For once I may find myself agreeing with Pink.

I do not believe that only three people wish to vote in this very important poll.

Why were they build like that? Do you get instructions when you buy them? Can you even buy them anymore?

Silent Running is a very fun route! It is really cool to feel yourself getting more and more comfortable trusting your feet on friction. Nick placed a #3 on the last pitch, but it could have been mostly to prove that he could. Does anyone know why the climb doesn't keep going past the bonus pitch? Just curious, it seemed like it would be short to get to the top. Now I want to check out Total Soul. Anyone know how it compares?

Which is more trad?

Yes, trailing a second rope. Pretty necessary in aid climbing anyway, althought this probably isn't a great aid harness. Tying a cord would mess up the waistband, the webbing would bunch up. I also hang my chalk bag from it, which is apparently frowned upon by gym rats, which makes me enjoy it more.

Oh Snap! Whoa there, learning from Fender made me the gumby I am today, and I am grateful. I heard Donini tapes at IC. Slander? (now libel?) At any rate, this is not a tape-is-aid discussion. For one thing, aid is pretty damn trad. For another, you have much more skin from which to bleed, than merely that on your hands.

A commonly voiced opinion, but one I think is mostly spray.

Which is more trad?

I climbed for five years on a $35 Rock Empire harness and thought it was just great the whole time. I still use it in the gym and since it's getting old, I'm thinking about buying another one just for that. For outdoors I've since upgraded to one of the fancy new Arcteryx ones and have to say it's nice. Very light, very comfortable. Kind of expensive. It does not have a real haul loop which is weird to me but it hasn't caused trouble yet. If you need to drop trou, the little catch at the back of the harness is a REAL pain in the ass to fiddle with. It might loosen up with time but for now it sucks. The leg loops on mine are not adjustable which is a slight inconvenience but they make some that aren't like that.

Wow. Love the way he presents the North Norwegian Buttress right next to the Beckey Route. Seems pretty fair, 5.9 and 5.6 are only 3 number grades apart.

You clearly haven't read any of the discussions. You can have whatever uninformed opinion you want about the gear, but your logic is faulty and nobody else should listen to you.

Crazy, I was pretty convinced one could act like a complete asshole here and never suffer any consequences. Guess I was wrong!

Why has nobody just put in another anchor on that wall? I don't think extra bolts are always the answer, but on a route this popular, when two more bolts would mean nobody has to trail an extra rope, it seems like it might be justified.

Who has climbed on one of those? It looks like it would be a really weird experience. What is the advantage over doing up/down laps on an easy gym route? Besides not needing a belayer?

Is there a good story about why you were bailing off Givler's?

So what makes your opinion valuable? We just had a firsthand account of a bolt wiggling when touched. Do you have anything that is actually worthwhile to add, or should we just conclude you trust bolts as much as your average sport-cragger?

Man, this place sucks.

Why do you think that? Here is the RC.com thread, which has a lot of good info. Those who are saying "It failed at X, that is still pretty strong" are desperately missing the point. The point is this company told you it was rated to Y. Their manufacturing process is inconsistent enough that there is no way to know what you're getting. Pull testing is a joke, especially under these circumstances. Having a consistent process and testing a representative sample to failure is the only way to be trustworthy. When pieces fail they should fail considerably above their rated strength, and with a consistent failure mode. Multiple failure modes at well below rated strength... how can anyone argue that this is not a huge problem? It is a shame, because Aliens are so nice to use, but they plainly can't be trusted. If you are so in love with them that you want to continue using them, that is your business, and I do not criticize you for it. But stop spouting horrible faulty stupid logic.

Please, stop with the anecdotal evidence on this topic. It shows that you don't really understand the issue at hand. "Mine haven't failed" is not AT ALL a sound or reasonable argument.

Man, fuuuuuuuuck that thing. I did eventually make it.

That... is brilliant. I don't know why I didn't think of that.

Wait, you're saying that crags with a 30 second approach were crowded on a sunny weekend?

Thank you for having the wall. It was totally cool and responsible for 4 of my visits to SG this winter.

http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/814303/Re_The_sad_f_ing_truth#Post814303