selkirk

Well, I was down there on Saturday but we (not me) had the camera batteries in backwards

Does anyone happen to have pics of Paul Maul down at Tieton? Thanks Josh

So often do you take 30 footers Dru.....once a week? once a month? once a year? Thats' kind of what I thought. Does anyone here take 30 footers on a regular basis(on something that isn't completely overhanging)? How about 15 footers on a regular basis? Yes I climb above gear. Yes I've run it out a bit on occasion. Yes I've climbed above marginal gear. I'm n hardman, but I don't think I suck either. However I won't run it out above marginal gear on hard terrain. No route is worth the risk at that point, and if some act of god causes me to pitch then I better hope all I get is broken ankles. I've never taken a 30 footer (a couple of 12-15 footers and few shorter ones) and aspire never to have to. My dad broke his neck on 10ft fall Prusik years ago. 30 ft is dangerous. 90 ft is just stupid, and if your doing that on a regular basis I hope you don't have a family to mourn you. 15 ft between gear on a moderate alpine climb (5.4 to 5.8) is probably reasonable. 15+ ft between gear on something relatively hard (sustained 5.9 or harder) is getting into an area no one I know is willing to risk. Just keep praying the hold doensn't break, or goat doesn't kick a rock down. I think a potential for a 30ft fall on relatively hard climbing qualifies as a "hardman" route. Ok, back to usual entertainment of everyone stroking there egos.

So what are everyones thoughts on bolting standards?

Those protests would be the two wars we're engaging in.

so is Trask.

hmmmm interesting ideas so far..... So my 2 cents on gear...... Passive Pro is actually my first choice for any given placement... Especially if I have a reasonable stance, First I try and fiddle in a hex (the same 2 or 3 always seem to find a place on my rack, and I place one of them more often than any cam I own). Hex's just make me happy, very confidence inspiring. For me, a good hex placement is enough to keep me happy for 10 or 15 ft (further than a nut or cam). After that I look for nuts placements, then finally cam placements. It might just be lack of experience with them, but it seems like there are more ways for a cam placement to go bad than a nut placement. If your concerned about it walking you just give it a good jerk and let your 2nd deal with it. The other thing I find is that there are often good placements that will only take 1 kind of pieces but won't take anything else (big flared pods get hexes, horizontal cracks get tri-cams etc.) Even on steep ground nuts are my go to piece. With practice they go just as fast as a cam, and I have more faith in them. I rarely climb anything where I don't place at least 3 or 4, and have often gone through 5 or 6 on a single pitch. Of course the other caveat is that I like thin cracks I think tri-cams are great in the alpine, where I'm really trying to maximize the versatility of every piece on my rack, and not likely to be climbing too close to my limit (so i'll have a good stance to fiddle some). And at that I only use the smallest 3 or so tri-cams. Nuts are all personal preference. I've got a set of DMM's and love them to death. They always just seem to seat a little more nicely than the BD's (smiley's etc). That said they're a bit more expensive and the BD's hold a fall just as well. Word on the street is that Wild Country nuts tend to get stuck for some reason though? So my advice.... A full set of nuts (DMM, BD, Smiley's Huevo's, don't think it matters much. But I do love my DMM's) The third smallest tri-cam (blue or black? ) for alpine mostly 3 or 4 hexes (Wild Country, either the biggest 4 (7,8,9,10? Red, Yellow, Purple, Blue) or the biggest 4 minus the biggest one (Red, Yellow, Purple). Don't get the full set though, I never seem to use the smaller ones at all. 1x #2 Omega Pacific Link Cam oh, and for Biners, take a look at the Mammut Lighweight wiregates. $5.25 a piece at 36gm, definitely the best deal for the weight, and good biners with nice action to boot

Attention is the next best thing, isn't it? even indifference works with the right booty

Before the flaming begins..... It's considered very bad form to add bolts to any route. The standard trad ethic is to leave no impact, or as minimal a one as possible. If there is a crack for gear, you use gear. Bolts are reserved for climbs that can't be protected any other way (i.e. face, sport, etc.), and for the occasional rap station/belay where there aren't any other options. Bolting a climb you developed Replacing old nasty bolts (my opinion ) but it pisseses some people off. Adding bolts to a climb with the first ascentionists permission (my opinion ) but some people frown on it. Adding bolts to a climb without the first ascentionists permission and likely to get chopped.

I believe expression your looking for is "That blows goats"

Y'all have fun! Looks like I'll be down there the following weekend instead. Not that I've ever made a cc.com event anyway

small landowners can always get screwed for the betterment of society. I think the real potential abuse of this lies in commercial developers. i.e. You sell your 5 acres that's zoned residential/rural to a developer who decides he should be able to put in a strip mall. The law could be interpreted that the state now has to pay the developer to not to develop the land Have an environmental lawyer friend who works for the state who said that 933 as it's written is convoluted, vague, and very abusable. The not changing or enacting new laws without due process and potential remuneration for damage to property or usability isn't so bad but... from the bill "An agency that decides to enforce or apply any ordinance, regulation, or rule to private property that would result damaging the use or value of private property shall first pay the property owner compensation as defined in section of this act. This section shall not be construed to limit agencies' ability to waive, or issue variances from, other legal requirements. An agency that chooses not to take action which will damage the use or value of private property is not liable for paying remuneration under this section." I think this clause is the sticky point. The state would have to pay people to enfoce existing laws and statutes, or waive the statutes. So.... how would you like to have the state pay an Exxon not to have a fueld depot next to your house in a residential zone? Thinly veiled corporate greed clause

I've got a yellow one (#2) and love it. Every now and then I find placements for it where literally nothing else would go, and of course the range if cool. That said I don't think it's worth having a full rack of them. They're a great way to make sure you've got a second cam in any given range instead of having to carry a full set of doubles (or triples) when you might only need the 2nd or 3rd piece once or twice. So I would say once you have your basic set of cams (or double set) 1 or 2 might be a good addition. Downside is that they're kind of heavy, and expensive. On the widest placements I can see how they might walk just a bit, but further retracted it is the more stable it becomes. (Mine's on a season and a half and I haven't had to clean it yet. So it's on par with my other cams for tending to gum up.)

I'm planning a record slowest attempt on a linkup of OS/Orbit that weekend and am shooting for 48 hrs each. Needless to say I'm bringing my portaledge.... and no , you may not pass, if your try, I'll tie your ass off to a big fat hex

Just stand on the damn boulder to get your first piece in, make it a nut, put it as high as you can get it and then jerk set the hell out of it. That way your protected from the groundfall onto the big pointy boulder for the first few moves until your up the point where you can start getting larger and more regular gear.

Was up there Saturday and it's officially in good shape. Nice hard compact snow. With a little bit of slightly fresher stuff that's collected at the slope change in the middle, about even with the mid-face rocks. Very secure climbing, though the pro isn't worth a great deal. It's pretty much too hard for pickets (though we did pound a few in the slightly newer stuff in the middle), but there really isn't any "Ice" except above the lip where it gets some sun, so I doubt the screws would hold in the unlikely event of a fall. Cheers Josh

White ligntning works great So does the boiling pot of slightly soapy water. Watch how much of the wax based lube you use on the small cams though. I have a couple where the action isn't quite as stiff as I'd like as I think there is too much wax on them, well and i'm too lazy to re-clean them A good thing to do to all of them in the winter before putting them away.

Never stop replacing old bolts? and I always take small wires, and almost always have a couple small tri cams on any alpine/adventure type climb. I have no problem with adventure climbs! In general I think adding bolts in new places to climbs is horrendous thing to do. (Maybe with the first ascentionists permission, if they're justified and thought out, i.e. Dans Dreadful Direct) However replacing old rusted, POS's is another thing entirely. They were placed with the intention of being good, strong belay bolts, and likely before you or I ever climbed it. I think the ones on top of Kangaroo Temple are ripe to be replaced as well.

Now that I've climbed the route and been privilege to all of your collected wisdom it's very clear. Didn't do me much good as I was trying to onsight it though now did it? We lead the chimney, and belayed at a bush on the traverse to the 5.9 finger crack as the other end of my rope didn't feel comfortable leading 5.9 at the point. So I lead through the finger crack, and belayed at the bush just past it, where the team in front of us had was belaying. Then stretched the rope to the shitty belay at the two rusted bolts (by the way, it's a much better belay with a smaller nut than I used the 1st time), but still hanging. We then stretched the rope through the roof to the ledge, and on up to the top. Hind site is fantastic, but having move by move, belay by belay beta takes 1/2 the fun out of the climb. To someone leading it for the first time, depending on how they break the pitches (and who's if any trip report they read) it becomes a reasonble/critical belay depending on rope length. (the crack above is ok, but that belay has better points of protection.) So my question still stands..... It may not be an improvement, but doest it really detract from anything to replace two shitty bolts, with two good ones? Were certainly not talking about retrobolting a pitch, or bolting the chimney, or even adding bolts. If you like the history that just put in two shiny ones and leave the old rusted ones there for posterity. It wouldn't change the integrity of the climb, as when they were originally placed 30 years ago, those bolts were probably great instead of sketchy. Cheers!

Anyone been up Observation Rock recently? Would very much appreciate any recent beta on conditions, approach times etc. Thanks for the info! Cheers Josh

Time to brush up on your math Keq =(1/ka + 1/kb)^-1 if ka=kb (two identical screamers) Keq =(1/ka + 1/ka)^-1 = (2/ka)^-1 = ka/2 The activation force should be the same but it should absorb more energy From the Yates website "Screamers can be combined in series to double or triple the total absorption. " I'm such a geek!!

aah but there's good stuff out there Plenty of stuff to scare me senseless on a regular basis!

I've had a Gateway for a couple of years and have been pretty happy with it. Usually I'm anti- "paying for extended warranties" But I did on the laptop. It seems like enough end up with some problem, battery, screen whatever and it's not something I think I could take apart and fix

I end up with a bit of a broad mixture. For trad cragging I tend to take alpine style draws instead of sport draws. They're nice floppiness makes me happy when I'm clipping nuts and cams I prefer them mostly because they don't get hung up on stuff and if i'm pushing my own grade at all I want to be able to place and clip gear as efficiently as possible. Tied work fine, but I'd probably make up a seperates set of short tied draws (1 ft long?) instead of using standard single (3ft?) draws that have been trippled over. (trippled over, tied singles get messy and futzy ). For alpine stuff I end up with a mix. Sewn alpine draws for singles, 1 or 2 sewn skinny doubles and 2 to 4 tied doubles (the 9/16th's climb spec stuff, not the 1" nylon). That way I've got a handful of runners that I don't really care about keeping nice (good for slinging chock stones, sap covered trees, building rap stations etc). so... yes, definitely worth having, and seriously cut down on bulk for the draws. I don't think I'd make single length alpine draws with 1" tied webbing, at that point they're better over your shoulder. as has been noted... strength doesn't really come into the question, it's more about bulk, futzing, and efficiency.

10% seems a little bit low. Of the dozen folks I usually climb with I think i'm the only one who posts but at least 2 or 3 others lurk on occassion or come here for TR's/beta. I imagine CC might get more than say gunks.com or smithrock.com due to it's breadth and the high quality of spray The real question is.... how many sprayers actually climb