selkirk

Finally and honest women!

No it didn't!

Calamity Jam down at Smith, 5.10c my ass. If you don't realize how best to use the big pocket up high, or get at all out of sequence your hosed. Or maybe Blasphemy also down at Smith. Not particulary hard for the grade. But on your first attempt it's hard to convince yourself to commit to palms and stems low enough and if you don't your in trouble.

I love my Genie! I hate that they don't make it anymore

Is this still going on?

Gear... Basically, if you have tools bring them, if you have crampons bring those too Maybe bring 1 kit to help set up the top ropes, and if you have an old rope bring that to. It will likely get covered in mud so nothing too new and shiny. Oh and be sure to take your leashes off! Beyond that... helmet, gloves, and clothing appropriate for the weather, hot tea can be nice too. Oh, and definitely bring the headlamp. Your tools will get dull, your crampons will get dull so no need to sharpen them. There are at least 3 set of anchors, and likely one or two new ones all of which can be set up from above as top ropes. If your feeling spry, two of the lines are very well bolted for leading (thanks Alex!). Oh, and when you fall leading, your crampons will shoot sparks The left hand one is pretty straight forward, except for the exit move which involves manteling on tools, and desperate sticks into the grass clump Alex thought it was probably M4. Right hand route has a thin dihedral in the middle but an easier topout. Likely M5? Alex, did anyone ever get the redpoint on the right hand route? Both cruxes have bolts you can clip from below the crux which is much appreciated! also, as it's Issaquah in the winter, plan on getting your rope muddy as hell regardless of what you do. Had lots and lots of fun last winter! Met some cool folks, got to play with a variety of tools. So long as it's not pouring it's pretty cool, and likely dry tooling is the only local real rock to be had til spring. We usually climbed for a couple of hours and everyone did a lap or two on the routes and then headed home. Parking is limited (2, maybe 3 cars if you squeeze) so carpooling is a good idea, though I think the Issaquah P&R is still closed? I can't make it the next two weeks, but will hopefully make it out after Thanksgiving. Have fun and stay dry!

I was also told last summer that camping the rocks near the heather is also frowned upon.

From my own, rather limited anecdotal experience, the folks I know and have instructed usually have a pretty good grasp of why things are done the way they are and can answer most basic questions. More in depth questions are often referred to the the area leaders (typically climb leaders or other folks with at least 3 or 4 years of climbing under the belt). The people going on to take the intermediate class are usually the more aware, more interested, and focused climbers in the basic class, not the students who were in over their heads and struggling to keep up with the technical aspects. Usually during the spring field trips you don't actually get many of those questions. The students are too busy trying to just absorb the basic techniques. Unluckily, the answer is sometimes, this is the way were teaching it because it's what's been decided. Most instructors are pretty good about discussing alternatives. Those questions tend to pop up more out on the climbs, and again purely anecdotaly, most of the intermediates I know are pretty sharp people, and if they don't know the answer refer the question to the leader. I think like any other group, there will be some people who probably shouldn't be teaching, but for the most part, I think the instructors do a pretty good job.

I can certainly agree with that. But I think that the level of experience needed to demonstrate a basic skill, and then ensure that someone is doing it safely is much, much less than the experienced to decide what to teach. I get the impression that some people think that there is a pack of unsupervised people with 1 years worth of experience who are entirely responsible for teaching basic students climbing skills, which isn't even close to correct. The net responsibility of a 1st year intermediate in a teaching situation is to demonstrate a skill they already know, and then watch to make sure the basics are doing things safely. (tied in, harness on correctly, belay device threaded and locked, yada, yada, yada). More experienced climbers have decided what to teach, how to teach it, and which experienced climber is going to be in charge of each teaching area. I think in my opinion a year's worth of climbing experience is likely enough to demonstrate a basic skill, and then supervise someone while they practic it. The higher standards that had been suggested are a great starting point, but I think it's likely overkill as even these instructors have a set of more experienced climbers intermixed and overseeing what they're teaching. Now having a few people who design and run the field trips, go through some more advanced training I think could be very useful. So what would your opinion be, on the minimum amount of experience appropriate to demonstrate a belay or rappel, and then supervise while someone else practices, all in a controlled environment?

Granted. The mounties don't teach a great deal of technique. Pretty much none in the basic course, and very little in the intermediate course. That's not what they were designed to do, and it's not something you could do with a large group. The mountie instructors get "wrapped up" in the gear and details during the basic and intermediate courses because those are the fundamentals and minimum skill sets needed. If you can't use the gear safely (i.e. tie in, belay, rappel, etc) you shouldn't be climbing anything. Even if you can't climb 5.10, you can still climb 5.4 though. Not to mention most folks I know in the mounties aren't interested in climbing hard rock. Their interested in getting out in the wilderness on moderate terrain with good company. Ever read the book Feeding the Rat? Mo Antoine put it well, the best part about climbing is "a good day out with your mates". The rest is just gravy. The other qualifier, is that for those who are interested in "manning-up", they offer seminars in aid, water-ice, friction climbing, crack climbing, (and new last year) advanced crack climbing, and sport climbing. Granted, none of those will get you to lead WI-6, or 5.11+ yada, yada, yada. These are much smaller groups though (5 to 10 people usually) and last anywhere between a weekend and a season. They don't even teach a great deal, but they do offer an opportunity to meet people who are share interests in learning how to climb harder. You might also look at some of my earlier statements. I know some pretty damn strong climbers who teach and lead climbs for the mountaineers. To think of any of the climbing courses as comprehensive is incorrect. They only provide a safe minimum set of skills to get you outside and climbing, and for you to build on as you see fit.

Thanks for the response Mtnfreak. That's kind of what I expected. My big point was that the critical part, determining what to teach, isn't carried out by inexperienced climbers, but by very experienced climbers. All of the curriculum, content, and progression skills are managed by the climbing committee. The first year intermediates are really just supervising practice to have another set of slightly more experienced eyes on safety. As for the guides skill in determining a clients, needs, wants, and abilities. To some degree that's taken care of by the course structure. Everyone who comes through the basic class receives the same training, and is tested on knowing the same skills so there is a dependable minimum skill set. It may be higher but it isn't lower. The climbs themselves aren't so much about teaching basic climbers a new skill set, as giving them the opportunity to put into practice their skills, so they can start to develop some confidence and efficiency, in a relatively safe setting. This also goes for the intermediates. They're just practicing a different skill set (route finding, leading etc.) The "teaching time is over", now it's practice time in the reasonably controlled setting offered by trade routes. That's not to say people aren't learning on climbs, but they're not teaching oriented. It's where you start to learn the finer points.

I think a big distinction between Guides and Climb leaders is the support structure. A guide is expected to fly solo, so he needs enough experience to do so, and take care of his group. A climb leader share the responsibility with his party (intermediates who have been climbing for a year or two, and the basics who are just learning). The big reason that there is a set of basic skill requirements that students have to demonstrate prior to going out on climbs is that the climb leaders aren't guides. They need to know that the basics can be trusted to support the climb. A second point, is that there's a reason that basic climbs travel in groups of anywhere between 4 and 6 on rock climbs and 6 and 12 on glacier climbs. It's not expected that each basic climber will be completely self sufficient. There is also a good reason that the basic climbs are technically straightforward. They're taught (and tested) on enough skills than they can safely go into the field as well as provide some support (belaying, breaking down anchors, crevasse rescue assistance). So the balance of a very experienced climb leader, several intermediate students of various skill levels, group size of 4+, and moderate objectives ends up providing a safe climbing format. It's not fast, it's not elegant, but it is safe. Ken, it seems to me that the friends who taught you, and the Mountaineers climb leaders aren't truly guides, but mentors. It's a bit of a fine distinction. But they were both sharing their knowledge and experience because they enjoyed it and they wanted you to learn to climb. They're not paid (occasional beers don't count). They're not professionals. Hell they're not even experts. But they have a body of knowledge which is safe, and greater than yours that they're willing to share. On their first climbs they probably took you up technically easy trade routes that were below your technical climbing ability, so that the chance of accidents was greatly minimized. Cheers all! Oh and Mtn Freak, if you come up with any info on the British Council standards thing, please to share it.

MtnFreak, out of curiousity, what do you think the more critical aspect of the AMGA certification and required body of experience is, as applied to teaching? Is that much larger body of experience necessary to know what skills are important to teach in a comprehensive manner, or how to teach the skills? My instinct is that it's the what to teach, that requires so much experience, not the how to teach it. I'd like to know if I'm wrong though. One big distinction, between hiring a guide or having your buddies take you out and teach you, and learning through the club is who is making the decisions about what is important. For your buddies, or the guide, they're flying solo. They had better have enough experience and knowledge to know what all you need to learn, and not forget anything critical. There is no way a first year intermediate has the knowledge set to completely guide someone elses climbing education, they don't have nearly enough experience. However they're not expected to. That's why the "Mountaineers Way" is taught. The climbing committee has been developing and evaluating the minimum set of skills necessary to be safe in the mountains for longer than I've been alive, and it's this body of experience that's determining the "what to teach". The intermediates are only expected to be able to do the "how to teach part", and I think they do a pretty good job. The how part pretty well mirrors, the med school thing previously mentioned. Watch one, do a bunch in a controlled setting under supervision, do a few in a wild setting where you and your partner are responsible for checking each other, then demonstrate one to a basic, and watch and offer advice while they practice.

says the ego tripping, condescending.... . . . . climber

That's a damn good exchange rate

Wartleys' isn't bolted, and if it does I'll chop the things myself. It's too pretty a crack to lead on anything but gear. and obviously Jens you've never scared yourself silly on trad. There is very little I've found that's more rewarding than trying to onsight at or a little above my limit on gear. Climbing trad at your limit is a much more mental game then sport, bouldering, or climbing multipitch below your limit.

First off I have no idea what the hell i'm talking about as I've only been drytooling a dozen times or so, and never been on true water ice but ..... I've got a set of Grivel G-12's and like them. The second points are just a touch more aggressive then sabretooths, so it seems like you shouldn't have to droop your heal as much to get contact. From what little drytooling I did last year, Monopoints are the way to go for that. It seems like they'd be bit more squirrely as you only have one point, but I had a hell of a time finding footholds where I could get dual front points on, and only getting one out of two frontpoints on is unstable as hell. I'd like to echo what mike said. Stem, Stem, stem, stem. If your on a dead vertical and flat wall, stem anyway. For my weakling little ass stemming is the solution to everything, always If your looking to push on single pitch stuff, go leashless ! I don't even have tools intended to be leashless, and cragging I go leashless anyway. It allows much better flow and creattive body positioning/movement, as your not locked into the right tool on the right, and left tool on the left anymore.

Blasphemy, down at Smith. My first 11a, got the redpoint on my 3rd attempt Paul Maul, hardest clean gear route to date. First fall on gear (blue TCU) on Calamity Jam. Ended up falling on it 3 times, and managed to sack up pull through the crux and cruise the rest. Damn things not 10c is all I have to say. Let my first (and only) drytool route at M4 over at little crag in Issaquah (lead it by headlamp none the less). Thanks for the bolts Alex! One fall near the top while groveling for a stick into a clump of grass North Face of Chair Peak in winter. (First Ice climb of any type, did Ob. Rock this fall which was mellow.) Most dissapointing moment wimped out of trying Wartley's Revenge. I decided that trying to onsight 2 grades harder than my hardest redpoint on gear was bad idea. I'm an idiot and should have tried it anyway!

Would love to but it's an awful long commute for a 30 minute appointment

It's time for beer and conditioning hikes up Si. . . . . . . . . . . . . . God I hate conditioning hikes up Si.

Thanks again Mike! An no, no asymmetric clicking, popping etc that I can tell. If anything my uninjured wrist pops a bit more. I'll watch for a couple of weeks, and maybe pick up a wrist splint. Definitely won't go the family doc route. I gave up going to them for any type of sports or joint type injury years ago. I've known a few cases where they're misdiagnosis cost people entire seasons. They just don't see enough of this type of stuff. I've gotten in to see sports med types at the UW medical center before and can probably do that directly without the referal process so I'll either go that route or the chiro route.

The warmth/pain started at the juncture between my palm and wrist on the inside of my hand. It extended maybe 5 or 6 inches up my arm towards my elbow. Pain is almost too strong a word, warmth is probably more accurate No pain flexing or extending my wrist with resistance at my fingers. No asymmetric pain or discomfort moving my fingers in flexion or extension under no load. No abnormal movement, motion or anything else asymmetric. No noticed swelling, discoloration etc. Occasional minor tendonitis from too much work at a computer w/ a mouse but it's symmetric and predates the climb. Relatively mild. No noticed decrease in strength. Really the only time it seems to twinge/burn a bit is when the wrist is cocked and I pull down on it. (think pulling straight down on a high finger lock.) In that position, under load there is some tingling and warmth. Thanks Mike! Is it something I should actually get looked at? or just ice, and tape the damn thing for a few months?

About 3 weeks ago I was climbing a finger crack and tweaked my wrist a bit. I had both feet pop off so I basically hanging off a finger lock and crimp, pulled hard on the finger lock and felt this little "pop" and it felt like something kind of slipped (kind of hard to describe) and then this warm, not quite burning sensation in the first 6 inches between my wrist and elbow. It hurt a little bit, but it was more burning/warm than painful???? Since then when I'm trying to pull on awkward facing holds awkward side pulls usually . It's fine for pulling straight down on with a straight wrist, it seems like I have to pull down, with my fingers cocked (like a finger lock) Does anyone have any idea what the hell I did? I'm more curious than anything else. Trying to take it a bit easy. Cheers

The picture of the sherman failure that I saw had the failure point below the knot. I really can't imagine that there was much sawing action. As memory serves the strength reduction due to knotting is directly tied to how sharp the bends in the rope are. Climbing ropes have a relatively large diameter so the bends don't end up being very sharp for the knots used (figure 8 is almost full strength, overhand have sharper bends so the strength reduction is larger). Most of the Daisy chains I've seen are still relatively wide (1/2 inch or wider?) So any knotting or girth hitching ends up with relatively broad radius turns. The 8mm and 6 mm slings though have such a small radius that it seems like the bends would be much tighter and could cause additional weakening. Especially when combined with the spectra. I could be talking out of my ass, but aren't Kevlar and Spectra incredibly strong but also very stiff fibers that weaken more significantly than nylon due to repeated knotting as the individual fibers actually break and not just bend?

I've done the same thing though only for easy alpine stuff and for glacier. (building a personal anchor out of 8mm dyneema runners for, my rock climbing/cragging anchor is one of the Metolius PAS systems.). Where I'm not likely to need it for anything, so I figure go as light weight as possible. After the Sherman failure I won't be doing this anymore. My guess is that some of the damage may have been do to a sawing action, but likely the majority was due to sharp bends in the dyneema. It's pretty common knowledge that knotting reduces rope or runner strength (some knots more than others, with the girth hitch and overhand being the worst, and figure 8 being better). I have a feeling the sharp bends caused by the girth hitch caused the failure, and that because of the nature of dyneema, this strength reduction due to knotting in this case (tight bends due to small diameter) is much worse than with larger chords. I would be very very very loathe to take a short fall onto a personal anchor like this. The girth hitch into the harness might be ok (semi protected due to friction with the harness but has a very sharp bend where the chord wraps around itself) but the figure 8's in the middle would make me very nervous. If your set on this configuration you might try passing the dyneema through the waist/leg loops so that it isn't knotted, and then using a bit of tape or something to create your loops. Short clipping is no longer an option though.