selkirk

Stands up on soap box. ahem, ahem. Why do I think they should be replaced? Are they trustworthy? No Were the bolts good, when they were first placed? Yes Do we all pretty much agree that preserving the first ascentionists style is worthwhile? Yes So if the early ascent had good bolts for a belay there, then what is the hangup with replacing two existing bad bolts with two new good bolts? If anything it returns the route to an experience that is closer to the early ascents. In my opinion this alone is enough justification to update the bolts. For the hell of it, lets keep going though. Is it a logical place to stop and belay from? Yes Is it the "BEST" place to belay from? in retrospect, now. Do people belay from there on a regular basis? Yes Will people continue to belay from there on a regular basis? Yes Is there sufficiently good gear at that stance such that the bolts aren't needed for a belay there? No If the bolts are pulled, will people expect them to be there? Yes Will experienced climbers be ok without them? Experienced climbers should be on more challenging routes, but yes. Then again, experienced climbers should be fine regardless. I know I was nearing the end of my rope when I hit those bolts. Does someone want to measure how far it is from the bush above the 5.9 up to those bolts? Does this route attract inexperienced leaders? Yes Will newbies be ok without them? Depends on the beta they happend to get, the length of their rope and their remaining rack. Let's all hope so though. Do people always know the "Optimal" break up of the pitches on a climb? No So were back to Is this a logical place to stop and belay from? Yes Has anyone died there because the bolts failed failed? No. Would the bolts sustain a high factor fall? Anyone want to go tie into one of those and take a factor two getting off the anchor? I remember one micro nut in the crack above so it might slow you down a bit. So keep your fingers crossed it doesn't happen. Have inexperienced climbers died on Snow Creek Wall? Yes. Is it just about a roadside crag that attracts crowds of inexperienced leaders? Yep, alpine climb my ass. My beef is that a completely reasonable set of decisions, beta, and skillset appropriate to the climb leads to people who haven't climbed the route before to finding it reasonable to belay from those bolts, and those bolts are shitty. (And apparently I'm neither the only one who thinks the bolts are shitty, or that it's reasonable to end up belaying there.) Is that a good enough explanation of why I think they should be replaced? Well that and for some reason it gets under my skin that experienced climbers feel the need to inflict shitty bolts on inexperienced climbers. Your all right, experienced climbers don't need these. Nobody has died yet because those bolts pulled. Climbers who have done the route before don't need them, yada, yada, yada. Bully for you for being an experienced climber who's already done it and now knows the optimum way to break up the pitches. That did me a load of good last year. Maybe I should have hired one of you as a guide to show me the "proper way" to climb orbit. I'm alos sure your collected wisdom has done more than a few folks who climbed it for their first time this year a whole load of good. I also don't understand why thought of REPLACING shitty bolts gets people panties in a twist. Were not talking retrobolting pithces or adding new fixed gear where none currently exists. Were not talking about opening the door to grid bolting, or power drills in the wilderness. Were talking about replacing shitty fixed gear, likely from the first ascent (which was good fixed gear then), with good fixed gear now. In general I'm big fan of replacing shitty fixed gear that already has tradition on a given route with good fixed gear. I don't really care if it's belay anchor, rappel stations (Thanks to whomever replaced the shitty bolts on top of Kangaroo Temple.) fixed pins, you name it. The fact that Pope came out on the side of replacing them speaks volumes in my opinion. steps off soap box.

you incorrigable tease. So what's the scandal today? Its' way too slow here today not to find out.

hmmmm, good idea for someone WHO'S ALREADY CLIMBED THE ROUTE. Not so useful for someone on their first trip up Orbit and doesn't know that you absolutely can't belay from the bush just above the 5.9 finger cracks or you'll be screwed.

Holy Shit! The Pope says bolt it! It's official, I win the argument, hands down, no contest, thank you very much, and I'll be here all week Thank you Pope, that's been my whole stance. Every on here says, ground up onsight, on gear, is the purest way to climb, and that Beta minimizes the experience and lessens it. Those bolts may not be necessary to someone who ALREADY KNOWS THE ROUTE, but for someone without a huge amount of Beta or someone who has already done the route, it's entirely reasonable to end up needing to belay from that stance (it's at about 50m, from the belay at the base of the two dihedrals below the 5.7 face), and those bolts are shitty. In addition the size of gear required for there or the dihedral above it is awfully specific, and if you don't have it your screwed. It's fine for me (and all of you) to climb it now and not use those bolts because we've climbed it before and know all the options! For someone without MattP and bwrts vast experience with the options on Orbit, whose on their first trip up it's very different story. You like the history, then leave the old ones in but it deserves to knew pieces there.

So how much are the reactors

There's 1 reasonable nut placement (assuming you haven't used that size on the previous pitch) A reasonable horn (so long as you don't pull up), and a marginal flaring blue TCU at that stance and of course two shitty bolts:p So there is gear, it's just less than inspiring for hanging belay, and god forbid 2 parties should stack up there (Like we did the first time I climbed Orbit). There's definitely only room for 1 belay at that stance right now. Granted it's an intermediate stance, and not critical if you've climbed the route before and know the "Prefered Cascade Hardmen" certifed belay stations, but going up blind it's an easy place to end a pitch. REPLACING 2 existing shitty bolts would have sped us up by at least an hour as it would have been possible to build a second belay that's reasonable so I could have brought up my 2nd. Instead of waiting for the folks in front of us to completely clear the belay. I still think it would be worth updating those two bolts. It's not like were talking about retrobolting the whole damn thing, and it's not like were talking about a remote crag, it's the Snow Creek Wall for cryin out load, it's damn near a roadside crag

Very punny cbs

I can think of a couple rusty pieces o' sh** at a certain belay on Orbit Just make sure the local hardmen don't trundle your ass.

You win.... That blows goats The least the could have done was to do it at the beginning of the summer when the weather doesn't suck.

I did, but I didn't get any pictures of it That's why I was hoping someone else might have a couple! It's nice. Good finger locks, reasonable feet, takes small to med nuts really really well, could damn near lead it with a double set of nuts and single set of TCU's (though I just about carried an aid rack ). Was very pleased to get it clean as it's close to my limit

I've got a pair of the Rudy Ekynox Sk and love them. Nicest thing is that you can get prescription inserts for them They dont' provide a total face seal like some glacier glasses, but it's pretty good, and I've dragged them successfully up a couple minor local glaciers.

Do I sense a little animosity there archie?

Well, I was down there on Saturday but we (not me) had the camera batteries in backwards

Does anyone happen to have pics of Paul Maul down at Tieton? Thanks Josh

So often do you take 30 footers Dru.....once a week? once a month? once a year? Thats' kind of what I thought. Does anyone here take 30 footers on a regular basis(on something that isn't completely overhanging)? How about 15 footers on a regular basis? Yes I climb above gear. Yes I've run it out a bit on occasion. Yes I've climbed above marginal gear. I'm n hardman, but I don't think I suck either. However I won't run it out above marginal gear on hard terrain. No route is worth the risk at that point, and if some act of god causes me to pitch then I better hope all I get is broken ankles. I've never taken a 30 footer (a couple of 12-15 footers and few shorter ones) and aspire never to have to. My dad broke his neck on 10ft fall Prusik years ago. 30 ft is dangerous. 90 ft is just stupid, and if your doing that on a regular basis I hope you don't have a family to mourn you. 15 ft between gear on a moderate alpine climb (5.4 to 5.8) is probably reasonable. 15+ ft between gear on something relatively hard (sustained 5.9 or harder) is getting into an area no one I know is willing to risk. Just keep praying the hold doensn't break, or goat doesn't kick a rock down. I think a potential for a 30ft fall on relatively hard climbing qualifies as a "hardman" route. Ok, back to usual entertainment of everyone stroking there egos.

So what are everyones thoughts on bolting standards?

Those protests would be the two wars we're engaging in.

so is Trask.

hmmmm interesting ideas so far..... So my 2 cents on gear...... Passive Pro is actually my first choice for any given placement... Especially if I have a reasonable stance, First I try and fiddle in a hex (the same 2 or 3 always seem to find a place on my rack, and I place one of them more often than any cam I own). Hex's just make me happy, very confidence inspiring. For me, a good hex placement is enough to keep me happy for 10 or 15 ft (further than a nut or cam). After that I look for nuts placements, then finally cam placements. It might just be lack of experience with them, but it seems like there are more ways for a cam placement to go bad than a nut placement. If your concerned about it walking you just give it a good jerk and let your 2nd deal with it. The other thing I find is that there are often good placements that will only take 1 kind of pieces but won't take anything else (big flared pods get hexes, horizontal cracks get tri-cams etc.) Even on steep ground nuts are my go to piece. With practice they go just as fast as a cam, and I have more faith in them. I rarely climb anything where I don't place at least 3 or 4, and have often gone through 5 or 6 on a single pitch. Of course the other caveat is that I like thin cracks I think tri-cams are great in the alpine, where I'm really trying to maximize the versatility of every piece on my rack, and not likely to be climbing too close to my limit (so i'll have a good stance to fiddle some). And at that I only use the smallest 3 or so tri-cams. Nuts are all personal preference. I've got a set of DMM's and love them to death. They always just seem to seat a little more nicely than the BD's (smiley's etc). That said they're a bit more expensive and the BD's hold a fall just as well. Word on the street is that Wild Country nuts tend to get stuck for some reason though? So my advice.... A full set of nuts (DMM, BD, Smiley's Huevo's, don't think it matters much. But I do love my DMM's) The third smallest tri-cam (blue or black? ) for alpine mostly 3 or 4 hexes (Wild Country, either the biggest 4 (7,8,9,10? Red, Yellow, Purple, Blue) or the biggest 4 minus the biggest one (Red, Yellow, Purple). Don't get the full set though, I never seem to use the smaller ones at all. 1x #2 Omega Pacific Link Cam oh, and for Biners, take a look at the Mammut Lighweight wiregates. $5.25 a piece at 36gm, definitely the best deal for the weight, and good biners with nice action to boot

Attention is the next best thing, isn't it? even indifference works with the right booty

Before the flaming begins..... It's considered very bad form to add bolts to any route. The standard trad ethic is to leave no impact, or as minimal a one as possible. If there is a crack for gear, you use gear. Bolts are reserved for climbs that can't be protected any other way (i.e. face, sport, etc.), and for the occasional rap station/belay where there aren't any other options. Bolting a climb you developed Replacing old nasty bolts (my opinion ) but it pisseses some people off. Adding bolts to a climb with the first ascentionists permission (my opinion ) but some people frown on it. Adding bolts to a climb without the first ascentionists permission and likely to get chopped.

I believe expression your looking for is "That blows goats"

Y'all have fun! Looks like I'll be down there the following weekend instead. Not that I've ever made a cc.com event anyway

small landowners can always get screwed for the betterment of society. I think the real potential abuse of this lies in commercial developers. i.e. You sell your 5 acres that's zoned residential/rural to a developer who decides he should be able to put in a strip mall. The law could be interpreted that the state now has to pay the developer to not to develop the land Have an environmental lawyer friend who works for the state who said that 933 as it's written is convoluted, vague, and very abusable. The not changing or enacting new laws without due process and potential remuneration for damage to property or usability isn't so bad but... from the bill "An agency that decides to enforce or apply any ordinance, regulation, or rule to private property that would result damaging the use or value of private property shall first pay the property owner compensation as defined in section of this act. This section shall not be construed to limit agencies' ability to waive, or issue variances from, other legal requirements. An agency that chooses not to take action which will damage the use or value of private property is not liable for paying remuneration under this section." I think this clause is the sticky point. The state would have to pay people to enfoce existing laws and statutes, or waive the statutes. So.... how would you like to have the state pay an Exxon not to have a fueld depot next to your house in a residential zone? Thinly veiled corporate greed clause