chris

I have two similar packs, an older Lowe Alpine Summit Attack and an MEC Serratus Genie. I saw a sil-frabric Dana being tested once too. All of these packs featured lids (unlike the OR pack). I love 'em. I've used the Lowe pack on 1.5 "day" trips, and the Genie on 1-2 day trips. I can fit 1/4 of a full length foam pad into the frame sheet pocket.

From page 57, Cascade Alpine Guide, V. 3 Rainy Pass to Fraser River, 2nd ed., by Fred Becky.

I can certainly agree with that. But I think that the level of experience needed to demonstrate a basic skill, and then ensure that someone is doing it safely is much, much less than the experienced to decide what to teach. I get the impression that some people think that there is a pack of unsupervised people with 1 years worth of experience who are entirely responsible for teaching basic students climbing skills, which isn't even close to correct. The net responsibility of a 1st year intermediate in a teaching situation is to demonstrate a skill they already know, and then watch to make sure the basics are doing things safely. (tied in, harness on correctly, belay device threaded and locked, yada, yada, yada). More experienced climbers have decided what to teach, how to teach it, and which experienced climber is going to be in charge of each teaching area. I think in my opinion a year's worth of climbing experience is likely enough to demonstrate a basic skill, and then supervise someone while they practic it. The higher standards that had been suggested are a great starting point, but I think it's likely overkill as even these instructors have a set of more experienced climbers intermixed and overseeing what they're teaching. Now having a few people who design and run the field trips, go through some more advanced training I think could be very useful. So what would your opinion be, on the minimum amount of experience appropriate to demonstrate a belay or rappel, and then supervise while someone else practices, all in a controlled environment? So Selkirk, what I'm starting to realize is we've only been addrssing two or three elements of outdoor education in this conversation. But there are a few more that are applicable: What is going to be taught? Who is going to teach it? When is it going to be taught? Why is it taught? We've been dwelling on the "Who". My real concern is the "Why" and that students learn the distinctions in the skills they're taught. I think experience provides instructors with this skill to provide distinctions. That's actually my own quote, from my first post on this thread, back on page 3. And that is my harshest observation of the PNW club approaches to basic skills. Just because the new instructors are supervised doesn't excuse their lack of experience. Students don't take that distinction as far as older instructors will, and answers given by new instructors - even erroneous or incomplete - will be given much more weight than they might deserve. And instructors aren't just teaching "How" a skill is used, but also "When" it is appropriate to use that skill.

Selkirk- I believe part of the issue is that the new instructors have insufficient time to gain experience using the skills they've been taught in a variety of terrain and situations. These are the basic skills they will be expected to pass on to other students. Some experience is necessary - the question is how much, and is the current criteria sufficient.

Check out the photos at Mt. Baker's website. 6+ foot tall piles of gravel/rock/dirt on the highway where the Nooksack washed over the river, and pavement missing and undercut where Shuksan Creek overflowed its culvert.

Dude, don't get sucked into the semester. Look at the Backpacking Outdoor Educator, the Mountaineering Outdoor Educator, and the Professional Instructor Course (only 16 days).

CBS, Keep checking the AMGA schedule...the new curriculum allows local accredited guide services to "sponsor" the basic-level AMGA courses, similar to how WMI and AIARE run their courses. The AMGA already runs the basic Alpine Guides Course and Ski Guides Course here in the North Cascades - it won't be long before someone sponsors an AMGA Rock Instructor Course at Smith. And if you go look up NOLS at www.nols.edu, use its search engine to find "outdoor educator" and "professional instructor course". I couldn't find the PIC just by clicking selections. I don't think that the "much larger body of experience" of professional guides and outdoor educators is necessarily required to teach basic skills, but it certainly helps. With that experience comes confidence and efficiency. And just as you've observed, the "what" to teach is much more critical. Relevant content, curriculum, and progression subjects are key skills. Good professional guides can read a client's paperwork, interview them during the pack check and hike to determine their wants, and shape a logical curriculum for the time they have. OK, sometimes it takes more than that, but you get my idea. Good outdoor educators have this skill set too, but I think they have far fewer opportunities to need it.

My personal experience is that I'm hired as an instructor much less often than I would expect - especially since my guide service advertises that I'm a trained and experienced NOLS instructor. Last summer I was hired specifically for instruction once out of 40+ days of work. Then again, I might just suck. More often my clients ask me to take advantage of teachable moments as time allows on our climb. While this is instruction the work is still rooted in guiding, so I don't make the same time management, routefinding, terrain and weather decision as I would if I were instructing. Professional guides have the AMGA for standards, but I wish that professional outdoor educators had something equivalent. I think NOLS is perfectly positioned to provide that, and they already offer courses in Outdoor Educator and Professional Instructor Courses (different from their hiring courses) that are already built. By simply adding a certification standard into the process they'd reach a whole new level. I would even argue that there should be a distinction between the skills sets of professional guides, professional outdoor educators, and volunteer outdoor educators or leaders. I'm really interested in learning more about the British Mountaineering Council's Leader program, which a client was telling me about last summer. It sounded like a national standard for non-professional outdoor leaders, which would apply directly to the Mountaineers and other clubs here in the states. If anyone knows more about this program in the BMC and if something like it could actually work in the states, I'd like to hear about it. P.S. I agree with you Ken, the criteria I outlined above isn't sufficient for taking the entry-level AMGA course, to be hired for any guide service or by NOLS/OB. But Gary was asking for suggestions to help with quality control in the instructor corps for the Mountaineers Basic Climbing Course, and my sugestion was that criteria like what I outlined may possibly raise the standard.

Oh now this sucks. I went online this morning and was excited to see the telemetry indicating that it snowed at Mt. Baker yesterday, if only 3-4". So when I went to check the snow report at the ski are website I was shocked to see this: http://www.mtbaker.us/gallery/v/Nov7/?g2_page=2 As of this morning, WA DOT Mountain Pass report hasn't been updated to report this: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/traffic/passes/PassInformation.aspx#baker Now it doesn't matter if it snows in Heather Meadows - we can't reach it anways.

That is sweet! Thanks Dave!

Hey Goatboy, Have you found a way to enter specific lat/long coordinates into the NWS point forecasting, or do you just replot with the mouse until you reach the right point?

So that people like Phil don't go insulting REI employees (we all know that anyone wearing a green vest is smarter than me), can you be clearer? Did you use the small JB pot that mounts the stove like Phil's sheep-shagging fantasy, or another non-standard pot such as an MSR alpine pot?

Actually Phil, I did miss Ride's reference to the "new larger pot" that you brought my attention to so effectively. My argument was completely based on the original pot, which does hold 1 liter of water. And I would agree that the new larger pot is not as effective as the orginal pot - who the hell calls a 1 liter tin a "cup"? In fact, Ride's probably right about his test, now that my misunderstanding has been cleared up. Thanks Phil. And thanks for the testing Ride. P.S. Ride, if you do another comparison test, would you also run a JB with an original pot?

I wonder if its a certain piece of rock on DNR land...

Whoa, easy there, Ride I'm not trying to disrespect or lecture you - just disagreeing. All I pointed out was that your lab study didn't jive with my anecdotal evidence, and I gave some reasons why I thought a PR/JB combo may not work. I don't think you're fucked up, just a little sensitive to contrary opinions and questions. P.S. My curiosity is stoked - can you really mount a PR stove onto a JB pot?

no, I just got them too. wow. cool.

I agree with mythos, except when it gets into the 40- degree, f#*%ing-cold-but-not-cold-enough-to-freeze temps. On those days, I'll wear a Marmot Precip.

ditto

Except that the jet on a JB stove is different than on a pocket rocket, and the distance between the burner and the heating element is intentionally engineered, so simply wiring a PR to the base won't necessarily be effective. And that leads to the second problem - you can't simply connect a OR to the JB base, can you (you may have discovered you can, I haven't tried it so I don't know)? Was your experiment conducted indoors? In my experience, wind plays havoc with a PR. While the PR still puts out the most BTUs, I don't necessarily equate that with heat if another stove has more efficiency at a lower BTU. And I'm really curious to see some pics if you've managed to rig a JB pot with a PR stove.

I'll step up and disagree. Where the jetboil rocks is in conserving gas. A jetboil simply wastes less fuel. I was able to melt a full liter of water in a Jetboil this summer in under 3 minutes, which makes it competitive to the PR for me. I used a pocket rocket almost exclusively last summer, and a jetboil almost exclusively this summer. Last summer, I needed to pack standard cannister per day for two people. This summer I used a cannister that was 3/4 full to cook two dinners, one breakfast, three rounds of hot drinks, and melt 5 liters of water for two people. The stove I'm looking forward to checking out is the OR Reactor. It runs on a lower gas pressure than the JB or the PR, meaning it handles cold better and uses more of the fuel in the canister. The only negative I saw in the proto model was that the stove didn't lock into the pot system like the JB does, making a hanging stove more of a problem. But the testers were recommending that they fix that too, so hopefully the production model will be as simple to rig for tent use as the JB is.

I agree - guiding is not instructing, and instructing is not guiding. There are some skill commonalities, and some guides do not make good instructors, just as some instructors do not make good guides. Guiding also encompasses many many technical skills that an Outdoor Educator would never instruct or use themselves. An Outdoor Educator instruction encompasses many teaching skills that a guide would never use themselves. Its a distinction that is not made often enough or clearly enough in the United States, but is much more popularly understood elsewhere.

I agree with Lambone. I recently bought a 70m Joker - its great for linking pitches, really stretching it out, and the light weight made a 70m feel like I was carrying a 60m. If I were about to buy a pair of twins or half ropes, I'd go with 70m. NOTE: There are a lot of multipitch sport routes around here that a 70m rocks on, allowing you to link together the pitches on the ascent and then comfortably rap down the route for the descent. Condorphamine Adiction is the first that comes to mind. Inspiration and Prime Rib on the Goat Wall are two more.

Lillooet is the best concentration of local ice, and it won't be in for another month. At least.

I'll give a ringing endorsement for the BD Megalight. I've used it on three ski tours, including one on Adams in 50mph+ winds at the Lunch Counter. Its not quiet in high winds, but when its tied down well its solid. When snow camping, you can completely bury the edges and it is absolutely bombproof. On a ski traverse last May we fit four men in one Megalight with no problems.

High of 10 Low of 3 http://www.weatheroffice.ec.gc.ca/city/pages/bc-28_metric_e.html