chris

You can always email BD's customer service...

That's right. They all suck. You won't want to bother with them...

I'm on my third Reverso. It is pretty sweet thought, and for a while was the only one of its kind. I'm getting ready to purchase an BD ATC Guide, and will try to post a review of it towards the end of the summer...

I was dropped aproximately 20m, to the deck, by my belayer in 1990. He thought I was down climbing the 5.7 slab route I had just finished leading, and I thought he was going to lower me. I was lucky to walk away with a severly sprained wrist and a bone bruise on my left ass cheek that kept me sitting on half of a chair for the next three weeks. This was before Gri-gri's, and he was using a simple tube device. Apparently my weighting the rope shocked him so much that the brake strand was pulled from his light grip and he couldn't grab the whipping rope before I hit the deck. We had climbed with each other numerous times, and we climbed together again after my wrist healed up. In another incident in 1996, I watched my friend Dan allow the rope end snake through his hand and belay device, dropping Amy the last three or four meters onto her ass. She walked away with nothing more than the shakes. This incident occurred on a route that all three of us were familiar with - the common practice was to downclimb the last bit (this was before 70m ropes were commonly sold). The lesson in both of these cases is attention. Both accidents were preventable by attentive belayers (a stopper knot in the second incident too). In the first incident, a Gri-gri probably would have saved me a month of discomfort and a season of overcoming my fear of being lowered from a climb. Even now I'm more comfortable rappelling than lowering. Gri-gri's have saved me too. This winter I took a 40+ footer in El Potrero, which lifted my 110 lbs belayer up to the first bolt - 20+ feet off the ground. If she hadn't been using a Gri-gri (she intentionally was), what were the odds that she would hold onto the break strand while being cheese-grated across the limestone? Nonetheless, you have to trust your belayer. You have to. Because the chance that your partner might make a mistake is a subjective hazard of the sport, and you can't claim negligence because they made a mistake, no more than your belayer has the right to claim negligence when that obviously loose block you pulled on falls and breaks their arm (another accident I've witnessed, in which the belayer still held the fall!). Lawyers can practice climbing, but climbers can't practice law..

Get well soon, Kurt!

Joseph, You've made this claim before - what evidence is there that this route was bolted on rappel? Does anyone know? Matt P? I also can't see how it was done. Did they climb 23 pitches and then place bolts? It was my understanding that they bolted ground up, over two (or three?) summers. There is no easy way to the summit - even Preiss recommended against the cross-country route down the northern aspects. So how did it happen?

Joeseph and the numbers 1-8 took it too far. Take it outside to fight, boys. What I got out of this is an understanding about the history of that face, and the similarities and differences between the 1963 Route, the Preiss Route, and Infinite Bliss. Thanks to the moderators for moderating.

In light of this conversation, I've edited my orginal post in this conversation. Thanks CJ!

I'm sure they also considered the fact that they can't afford to maintain the road since some dickhead in Washington DC diverted their budget to pay for a war.

Ahhh, and I didn't mean to imply that I thought you were being a stick-in-the-mud-Mountie...

Gary, that test data gets thrown around ever time this conversation is started. But the knot flipps at loads much higher than any rappel load will encounter - 1200 and 900 lbs in your two examples. And a second double-strand overhand knot (is that a better description Matt? I hate calling it an EDK) stops flipping.

I've had a couple of close calls. Bags inspected. I even got pulled out of line for a flight from Santiago, Chile, when my fuel bottles - empty and washed - were inspected for fuel residue.

CJ, , I didn't think about those explosive hairspray canisters before I shot off my mouth, hmmm.... No, seriously, the reason we always get our chops busted about stoves on flights is because of stupid stunts like this.

Screw top canisters have become the industry majority. You should have no problem finding them in Cham. Freeburg, you're X XXXX XXX. Freeburg, I apologize for calling you a dumb ass. The following conversation shows that what you did was an understandable, if foolish, decision. And I was a bit quick to judge and run my mouth. So you're not a dumb ass. You're a fool. Or a tool. I can understand flying with empty stoves. I can even justify flying with empty liquid fuel bottles that aren't capped. But to knowingly allow a pressurized, higly flamable canister to be checked in with your luggage - essentially a bomb in the right conditions - was stupid.

more candles to light tonight...

Chirp, if anything this proves that the application of the death penalty DOES NOT reduce crime rates. Why is it that Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand have lower crime rates than the United States and China, but do not apply the death penalty?

Since it doesn't sound like the frontpoints, I'd recommend just bending them back in.

Mike, I don't think that's a fair expectation since Preiss was soloing. Pitch 7 was runout, only fitting since it was low 5th class. Pitch 9 was pretty reasonable, again only fitting since it was 5.7/5.8-ish. And pitches 15-17 have no protection, only anchor bolts more useful for rappelling.

Wow. I've never seen that black and white photo before. Thanks Mark! I tried to line up the B&W photo with the R&I photo, and compared Preiss' route description with the IB topo, and tossed in my experience on IB as well. This is what I got. 1. Preiss exits the West Peaks FA 1963 route and joins IB at the top of pitch 6. I still believe that he did not climb pitches 1-6. 2. Preiss' pitches 1-3, in photos, appears to follow IB pitches 7-9. However, his description of these pitches doesn't match up, describing it as 5.7/5.8 ramps and steps. IB pitch 8 is 5.9+ and steep. It is possible that Preiss climbed what is now IB pitch 7, continued to follow the ramp past the beginning of IB pitch 8, and then doubled back. In effect, IB pitch 8 cuts the corner of the Preiss route. Since Preiss pitch 1/IB pitch 7 is easy 5th class, and Preiss pitch 3/IB pitch 9 is 5.7/5.8, this is very possible. 3. In the B&W photo, the Preiss route clearly follows the lower angle, greener ledges to the left of IB, avoiding the 5.9 and 5.10- pitches of IB. IB rejoins the Preiss route at pitch 15 (Preiss pitch 7). Since the big tree at the top of the 4th class bowl is prominent in both route descriptions, I believe both routes follow a similar line. From the top of the 4th class bowl the routes once again diverge. I conclude that IB follows five pitches of the Preiss route. Specifically, pitches 1, 3, and 8-10 of the Preiss Route is also climbed by pitches 7, 9, and 15-17 of IB. Preiss' claim to the FA of this face is erroneous, though his route (and IB's) tops out on a secondary summit of West Peak. In 1963 a team of three climbed the face in February, establishing the first ascent and the first winter ascent of the south face of West Peak Mt. Garfield. Preiss did, however, establish a bold new line, and possibly the first solo ascent (I haven't been able to verify Doorish's ascent).

Wirlwind? Mister E? You in?

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes No, and he should expect to get the shit kicked out him if he’s caught at it. Yes. My girlfriend’s friend’s boyfriend climbed with him once at Vantage. Really. Overcast. Pantera Gary. Yes. Mavs Coyote Schoeller

Easy Joseph, easy. That was 123's remarks were clearly meant to simply piss you off, not contribute to the discussion. But I do have a question. What makes IB an alpine climb? Its length? Its location? If it was in Yosemite, would it still count as an alpine climb? It only has a 45-minute approach. There are multi-pitch climbs in Icicle that take longer to reach, but I don't consider alpine. There are other examples of multi-pitch sport climbs with high commitment or in alpine ecological zones, both here in the Cascades, in the Sierras, Austria, Switzerland, France, and Mexico. Are these examples irrelevant? Why?

Wow. Color me surprised.

I will admit to having rapped off - multiple times - on a 10.5mm and a 7mm tag line using a very-well-dressed overhand. To keep this from possibly flipping down 12-18 inches of tail, I add a second very-well-dressed overhand as a stopper knot. I know lots of people will protest this. But not once - NOT ONCE - has my knot flipped, or the 7mm cord "slipped".