chris

Since it doesn't sound like the frontpoints, I'd recommend just bending them back in.

Mike, I don't think that's a fair expectation since Preiss was soloing. Pitch 7 was runout, only fitting since it was low 5th class. Pitch 9 was pretty reasonable, again only fitting since it was 5.7/5.8-ish. And pitches 15-17 have no protection, only anchor bolts more useful for rappelling.

Wow. I've never seen that black and white photo before. Thanks Mark! I tried to line up the B&W photo with the R&I photo, and compared Preiss' route description with the IB topo, and tossed in my experience on IB as well. This is what I got. 1. Preiss exits the West Peaks FA 1963 route and joins IB at the top of pitch 6. I still believe that he did not climb pitches 1-6. 2. Preiss' pitches 1-3, in photos, appears to follow IB pitches 7-9. However, his description of these pitches doesn't match up, describing it as 5.7/5.8 ramps and steps. IB pitch 8 is 5.9+ and steep. It is possible that Preiss climbed what is now IB pitch 7, continued to follow the ramp past the beginning of IB pitch 8, and then doubled back. In effect, IB pitch 8 cuts the corner of the Preiss route. Since Preiss pitch 1/IB pitch 7 is easy 5th class, and Preiss pitch 3/IB pitch 9 is 5.7/5.8, this is very possible. 3. In the B&W photo, the Preiss route clearly follows the lower angle, greener ledges to the left of IB, avoiding the 5.9 and 5.10- pitches of IB. IB rejoins the Preiss route at pitch 15 (Preiss pitch 7). Since the big tree at the top of the 4th class bowl is prominent in both route descriptions, I believe both routes follow a similar line. From the top of the 4th class bowl the routes once again diverge. I conclude that IB follows five pitches of the Preiss route. Specifically, pitches 1, 3, and 8-10 of the Preiss Route is also climbed by pitches 7, 9, and 15-17 of IB. Preiss' claim to the FA of this face is erroneous, though his route (and IB's) tops out on a secondary summit of West Peak. In 1963 a team of three climbed the face in February, establishing the first ascent and the first winter ascent of the south face of West Peak Mt. Garfield. Preiss did, however, establish a bold new line, and possibly the first solo ascent (I haven't been able to verify Doorish's ascent).

Wirlwind? Mister E? You in?

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes No, and he should expect to get the shit kicked out him if he’s caught at it. Yes. My girlfriend’s friend’s boyfriend climbed with him once at Vantage. Really. Overcast. Pantera Gary. Yes. Mavs Coyote Schoeller

Easy Joseph, easy. That was 123's remarks were clearly meant to simply piss you off, not contribute to the discussion. But I do have a question. What makes IB an alpine climb? Its length? Its location? If it was in Yosemite, would it still count as an alpine climb? It only has a 45-minute approach. There are multi-pitch climbs in Icicle that take longer to reach, but I don't consider alpine. There are other examples of multi-pitch sport climbs with high commitment or in alpine ecological zones, both here in the Cascades, in the Sierras, Austria, Switzerland, France, and Mexico. Are these examples irrelevant? Why?

Wow. Color me surprised.

I will admit to having rapped off - multiple times - on a 10.5mm and a 7mm tag line using a very-well-dressed overhand. To keep this from possibly flipping down 12-18 inches of tail, I add a second very-well-dressed overhand as a stopper knot. I know lots of people will protest this. But not once - NOT ONCE - has my knot flipped, or the 7mm cord "slipped".

Hey, I only know of MEC. But there has got to be other gear shops. Any privately owned, core shops in Vancouver?

There wasn't a much exposed rock when I skied past it last month. But it dries out a lot in the summer...

Marko, I got to disagree with you, this is what I posted when Preiss wrote that letter...

Yeah, that was too rich...

I think this conversation overlaps - a lot - with re- and retro-bolting. Often times, my issues are the same. Here are my considerations for removing bolts: 1. Are they dangerous? Old, rusted, etc.? Then they get the chop and usually replaced. 2. Will removing them scar the rock further? This is LNT applied to the vertical. I know of one crag that I won't chop a squeeze-job because I don't think I can keep from damaging the rock further. 3. Were they placed by the FA team, or are they sanctioned by the FA team? If the FA team is unreachable, I ask the local community for an opinion. 4. Is there adequate traditional protection nearby that can substitute? Sometimes the FA team had good reason for not using that crack, so I like to try to ask them in consideration #3. This is just what I consider when removing or adding bolts... Oh, and about the tuning fork. Let me ask around. It was my understanding that it would work, but you're right about 5-piece bolts. I'll ask a few people wiser and with more experience and let you know what I hear...

Joseph, you were exactly who I had in mind.

you got me

OK, I did my own bloody search and found that original thread. Thanks to NOBODY for simply answering the bloody question. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/threadz/s...true#Post485031

Actually, it does. Surprisingly well.

What the hell?

An easy way to remove the bolt is with a "tuning fork". Take a #8 knifeblade piton and cut a fork into it about 3/4 - 2/3 of the length. With a hammer, you can use that to tap out the bolt, even if you can't loosen the nut on the bolt.

If anyone is still in town, are you interested in grabbing a beer at the Rogue on Thursday? 8pm?

But then someone will get pissed that CC.com is tacitly supporting IB's very existence instead of railing for its destruction, but willing to ignore similar multi-pitch sport routes elsewhere in Washington...so let's not.

In my experience, G12's climb ice better. Sabretooths climb rock better. I have both. I use the G12's more often.

The mosquitos probably have something to do with the "Feathers Lake" that has formed in the middle of the camping area at Vantage (due to some genius' idea of how water should drain from a depression when blocked by a road). I think the water and mosquitos may somehow be related. Just a hunch.

I just retired a beal rope for the same reasons you described. The core flattening was also more pronounced in the ends of the rope than the middle. I've never seen a rope do this. This happened after 18-24 months of heavy use (I can't remember precisely when I bought the rope), so I'm attributing it to normal wear and tear and abuse on a rope. I still buy Beal and recommend their ropes.

Have you not heard about the scene in Europe?