billcoe

Crap, my father in law said the Neisi of the 447th attacked the Germans holed up in the Italian Dolomites during WW2. In the middle of pitch black night. Several fell to their deaths off the cliffs, yet none yelled or called out and so betray their buddies positions or alert the enemy as they fell.

Well, reading this thread makes me wonder why. [font:Arial Black]NOT ![/font] ______________________________________________________________

Mike - good news for you. Hope this adds to the discussion. Link Hell, they offered me $12,000 for 6 more and E-5 after 2 to re-enlist (cause I was in a combat MOS). I thought they were crazy then, and bubblegum was CHEAP back then! In fact I knew a fella who mustered out and bought a brand new Harley Sportster for $1800, that;s how long ago it was:-) But all I could think about was my beloved Pac NW, and the beauty of the rainforests and had to turn them down. The crazy bastards were making me mental and I came inches away from offing myself. Better what I have now. Money ain't everything. Bet my buddy Mike Jackson is pissed he jumped out of Green Berets a tad early for the payoff though. Just saw him last month. Good luck. Full story follows. ________________________________________________________________- "By RICHARD LARDNER, Associated Press Writer 28 minutes ago WASHINGTON - The Pentagon has paid more than $100 million in bonuses to veteran Green Berets and Navy SEALs, reversing the flow of top commandos to the corporate world where security companies such as Blackwater USA are offering big salaries. The retention effort, started nearly three years ago and overseen by U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla., has helped preserve a small but elite group of enlisted troops with vast experience fighting the unconventional wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to Defense Department statistics. Overall, more than 1,200 of the military's most specialized personnel near or already eligible for retirement have opted for payments of up to $150,000 in return for staying in uniform several more years. The numbers gathered by The Associated Press and other Pentagon research indicate there has not been an extended exodus of commandos to private security companies and other businesses that value their talents. "Back in 2005, we saw quite a few exits," said Rear Adm. Michael LeFever, director of the Navy's military personnel plans and policy division. "What we're seeing lately is just the opposite. We've become very aggressive." Defense Secretary Robert Gates remains so concerned over the lure of high salaries in the private sector that he has directed Pentagon lawyers to explore putting no-compete clauses into contracts with security companies that would limit their recruiting abilities. While special operations forces are by no means the only candidates for security jobs in Iraq that can pay hundreds of dollars a day, they are the most attractive because of the unique training they receive. In addition to being proficient with weapons, many of these troops have advanced education, the ability to speak the languages of the Middle East and other regions, and the cultural awareness that comes with living among the local populations. For those same reasons, the military wants to hold on to them as long as possible, and at the same time demonstrate to younger enlisted troops that there's a financial incentive for an extended career. The stress of repeated deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan and the opportunities for financial stability outside the military have heightened the urgency of the military's retention efforts. Gates said Wednesday the Army must focus more on training foreign militaries and fighting insurgent groups — methods essential to success in the type of irregular warfare U.S. forces now face. Troops with these skills "need to be retained," Gates told the annual convention of the Association of the U.S. Army. With the Pentagon expecting to spend an additional $43.5 million on commando bonuses in fiscal year 2008, which began Oct. 1, statistics show the military is building a more mature special operations force. In addition to retention bonuses, enlisted special operations personnel ranging from corporals to sergeants major also qualify for a special duty pay of $375 a month above their normal salary. The Special Operations Command bonus program was approved in late 2004 and targeted noncommissioned Army, Navy and Air Force commandos with 19 years or more of service. After 20 years, military personnel are eligible to retire at half pay and have lifetime access to military medical care and other benefits. At the 19-year mark, an Army sergeant first class earns about $63,400 annually, a figure that doesn't include what the Congressional Budget Office calls "noncash" benefits available to military members such as subsidized child care, lower grocery costs at base stores and free access to recreational facilities. The "critical skills retention" bonuses work on a sliding scale and are offered to senior enlisted personnel and warrant officers who form the backbone of the force. Those agreeing to stay an extra six years receive $150,000; five years is worth $75,000; four years, $50,000; three years, $30,000; two years, $18,000; and one extra year, $8,000. Since January 2005, 2,326 have been eligible and more than half took bonuses, statistics show. Those who didn't opt for an extension may have retired, or they may be waiting for the right time to take the bonus: accepting it during a battle-zone deployment makes the payment tax free. Within the Army Special Forces, the largest U.S. commando branch better known as the Green Berets, more than 900 have traded time for money. More than a third of these troops agreed to six-year extensions. Overall, at a cost of $75 million, the Pentagon bought an average of 3.3 additional years from Green Berets with nearly two decades of experience in combat engineering, communications, intelligence and field medicine, figures show. Just over 300 Navy SEALs — Sea, Air and Land commandos — have signed up for longer tours at a cost of $27.6 million. More than half agreed to six additional years. The Air Force pool of combat controllers and pararescuemen with at least 19 years of service is the smallest; 32 of these troops opted for bonuses costing $3 million. Half took the six-year package. While Special Operations Command officials view the results as positive, retention figures probably will do little to settle the heated debate over recruiting tactics used by private security companies. "The disgraceful cycle works like this: Contractors hire away military talent. The military finds itself short of skilled workers, so contractors get more contracts. With more money, they hire away more uniformed talent," wrote Ralph Peters, a retired Army officer and a frequent commentator on military issues, in a recent opinion piece in the New York Post. Blackwater USA has a large contract with the State Department to guard U.S. diplomats in Iraq. Since a Sept. 16 shooting in Baghdad that left 17 Iraqis dead, the company has been sharply criticized for the way it operates. At an Oct. 2 congressional hearing, Democratic lawmakers accused the company of poaching from the military's ranks. Erik Prince, Blackwater's top executive, defended his company, saying not every one wants to stay in uniform for 20 years. "At some point they're going to get out after four, six, eight, whatever that period of time is, whatever they decide, because we don't have a draft. We have a voluntary service," Prince said. "Yes, a lot of them come to work for companies like us, but not at any higher rate than they ever did before." Chris Taylor, a former vice president for strategic initiatives at Blackwater, said Prince's claim is backed by a July 2005 study from the Government Accountability Office that said attrition levels within military specialties favored by contractors were about the same as before the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. More recently, Chris MacPherson reached a similar conclusion in a research project he conducted over the summer in the Pentagon's special operations directorate. "I found no evidence that (private security companies) have increased the number of U.S. special operations forces leaving the military," said MacPherson, a graduate student at Princeton University's Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs. Of the estimated 25,000 security personnel working in Iraq, only about 2,000 are Americans and they earn between $350 to $500 a day, said Doug Brooks, president of the International Peace Operations Association. That means there aren't that many high-paying security jobs available even if a service member leaves the military, said Brooks, whose organization represents many companies doing business in Iraq. "There's no drain on the military," Brooks said. "This is way overblown."

Who's dat, the vice presidential nomineeee? BUSH NEVER TREATED CHENEY LIKE DAT...... HMM, COULD BE WRONG.

Probably not.... but suffice to say, the road to hell may be paved with good intentions.

Whata talkin ugly?

No. Too old.

link So you move someplace totally environmentally unfriendly? Who's brutal repression of the Tibetans is legendary? The ruins are still everywhere over there. Hell, Galen Rowell was permanently tossed out of that country for just HANDING OUT PICTURES OF THE DALI LAMA Is this even the same company which threatened to pull the trade show out of Utah because of a much smaller wilderness issue. I find it very confusing and hypocritical. -Here- "Peter Metcalf owns Black Diamond, a hiking and mountain climbing equipment manufacturer in Salt Lake City. He led the National Outdoor Retailers Association to threaten to move its two yearly major trade shows out of Utah to someplace more wilderness friendly. That would cost the state about $24 million. Peter MetcalfPETER METCALF: Right now the most recent actions on behalf of the governor, specifically the backroom deal that he and Secretary Norton cut, has taken away wilderness study protection for many millions of acres in Utah, many of which hold some of the most pristine and beautiful canyon area climbing, backpacking areas in the state. And they're now open for potential mineral exploitation, mining, additional grazing, new roads, that sort of thing, that just despoil the environments that many of our customers go to use. "

...and you call yourself a climber... NO BOLTING CRAP! Jeff....... I'll loan you a hand drill if you are feeling sporting and want to re-create that classic feel :-0

Chimneys must be a bitch! BTW, my current pants (bought 3 pairs real cheap) are a big upgrade from anything I've ever owned. Lowe alpine system rock climbing pants. They were on sale on Backcountry .com. 1st pair $25 next to were $52. They only had 1 size and they fit great. 1st time out, my car keys puntured a hole in the pocket.

Hey, thats my line! Actually, I like that Joseph left various old historic mank out there at some places so that the kids can stare in fear and wonderment at that crap as they clip the new bomber 3/8" he put in. One man's trash is often another mans interesting classic history. I have an original bolt off of the East Buttress of Middle Cathedral rock bolt ladder in my chalk bag I've been carrying there for about 20 years. Got the bolt and the hanger. Wonder how many pitches they've seen?

BTW Kev, best idea yet: if you feel strongly about the Gandolf's bolts, then you probably should get up there soon and fix it the way you want to see it get done. Otherwise, it's gonna be what it's gonna be, and someone might pull them as they put in the new.

No. You sound like you are trying to pick a fight. Maybe I'm misreading your words. _______________________________________________________ Not me. About a week ago Joseph and I tried a new route/pitch (which he later got), there was a very rusty 3/8" wedge anchor which I had hand drilled on lead well over 20 years ago on an early reconnoiter which I had forgotten about. Looking at it, it's an OK stance ond location, not the best. I was wondering if the foothold I'd been standing on had snapped off. -But- That bolt is significantly older than 10 years old. That bolt is very rusty (stainless hanger though). That bolt is shit. That bolt is not historic. Just because I am too lazy to replace it doesn't mean that I won't A) Clip it. B) Not thank the person who replaces it. Now realize that while I'm belaying JH on this route, I'm a pitch off the deck on an existing route clipped to 2 of his new replacement bolts which are located 8" below what is now my cut off uncammoflaged studs of 2 stainless bolts I had installed and which should have been perfect before they got sawed off. Sawed most likly by JH when he put in the new stuff. But why give him any grief over it or even bring it up? He worked his ass off out there. He probably had a reason. I know that the rangers wanted the chains Dave had put on my bolts out there like 8 years ago gone. Maybe the threads were galled? -again- Why give him any grief over it? He worked his ass off out there. I think there was plenty of opprotunity FOR ANY AND FOR ALL OF US to get involved early on and mention that "this bolt or that bolt" was historic. To me, the origonal 1/4 bolts at the end of P2 which were up on the slab (not on the ledge like the current location) which were put in by the FAers on the SE corner should have been left. They were truely historic. I have not given Jim any grief about it because they are way off what is the current route, and n00bs would have got lost, wandered up that way, and gotten screwed. But they were put in by some bold dudes on the first technical climbing route at Beacon, and no one even knows that the route path was changed now. Maybe even you don't know this. I'll bet you dollars to donuts if Steve read this thread with anybodies suggestion that Danny and his old 1/4" bolts on Gandolf's were "historic" he'd be laughing his ass off.

Kevin: tThe correct way to replace 1/4 split shanks is to yank them out with a modified Lost Arrow and use the hole for the next 3/8 bolt after you drill it out. Usually the position of the old bolt is perfect, why just leave rusting trash in the rock unless it's historic. (Like JH left Dean Caldwell and Kim Schmitzs bolts alone at Beacon and just drilled new. )

Serenity: to follow up on what JH is saying. If these Bush administration mistakes were in the rearview mirror, it would be a different discussion. The administration puts together a crack team of true diplomatic professionals (the Baker group led by James Baker) and ask them to devise a plan and an exit strategy that would end this with us on top. They interview all the key players on down to and including people like yourself and the Iraqi counterparts. They come up with a multi-level plan the size of a phonebook to most effectively archive a positive goal and outcome. The Baker plan is debated by various experts in the open to examine potential flaws in the minutia. The state dept supports the findings. Result: ignored. Here we are. The admin is finally starting to look at and try one or 2 of the suggested things after what they have tried instead fail. People like you should not have to pay the price for their stupidity and incompetence, let alone having our country bleed dry over it financially. I mean WTF? I believe that our country could use more like you, and truly wish you well. I'm only sorry to see that the shit these dumb assholes continues to try runs down onto you and folks like you. As competent as you may be, I see it a needless political posturing that only costs us money and lives. I'm off the hook and don't have to pony up on this one, but I have a 17 year old son who may be in the middle of this soon....and it only increases my anger to see this kind of political bungling endlessly occurring. Regards Bill

link

The gov't must be F*ing with you again. You know thats exactly what the CIA does. They fuck with people and later after innocent people had done bad things to each other pushed by the silent hand....well, the dudes would sit back at a bar-b-que and laugh about it over a cocktail. Guess you just have to live with it. HA HA HA ! Glad it's you and not me!

BTW, don't think I'm just slaggin ya, I read one of your books and it was off the hook. How you went from that amazing work of scholarship to this I cannot fathom for they are at the far opposite ends of the intellectual scale. Maybe it's Kevbone doing it to you? Dawg, snap out of it, snap out of it! Bill's review here link Hey Dawg, please don't be offended as I must ask: did you just log onto CC.com and walk away from your computer and leave some 5th grader on it? Help me I'm looking for a reason here? Help! BTW, I loaned (or gave it- not totally sure) your book to Jimmy O. He's a bible fanatic, I'll report back with the results.

Damn Raindawg, how old are you anyway? Grade school was a long time ago for everyone else on this thread.

Sounds like quite a guy. I'm sorry the fellas gone and that I never had the pleasure to have made his acquaintance. We're all heading that direction. All of us. Nothing we can do about that, but it warms my heart though to know that he made such a positive impact on so many while he was on the earth. The world could use more like him.

Thanks for the heads up. But the steel and most Mfg products from China is as good as anything in the US. They have hit that sweet area of price-performance level. You go look at a high end TV, VCR, or toaster...damn ear anything, and even the Japanese branded products (except maybe most Sonys), are all made in China. And it's good stuff too. I'd trust any BD cam made in China much more than any CCH Alien made in the US. (I still climb on my Aliens too).

No way, you can't say shit or fuck over there! As in, "we knocked that fucker over it's too late to give a shit now.... " Hell, the life you saved may have even been mine!

Wayne, that was the best post of the day. Don't be sorry! BTW, with the freeze thaw cycle around the east county area, that thing would have loosened over time..... You might have saved a life. Or several. Who can judge such things?