pindude

We were told we did $35K worth of work when we did that all-volunteer project...sure we could do it for hire, or give you the beta to do the work yourself.

In 20 years of climbing at Minnehaha in Spokane, I've never heard of anyone running off with someone's crag pack. It happened to me today. Place was crawling with peeps today, including our Mountain School class, and when teaching activity died down late in the day, I took the opportunity to set up a TR on Ron's Climb/Bat Crack, right in the middle of the Main Wall. I set my pack down at the base of the climb, as we all normally do, and took 3-5 minutes out to walk a newly arrived gal toward where her boyfriend was, "around the corner." Came back and immediately saw my pack wasn't where I'd left it--I instantly knew it was ripped. I'm sure they saw me when I walked away, grabbed it and immediately ran to the road to a waiting car. As soon as I saw the pack was gone, I sprinted to the road. They were long gone. Like I said, normally the place is crawling with climbers. I'm sure whoever took it was lying in wait, saw the opportunity, and went for it. No witnesses, nobody saw nothing. Probably a drug head; I doubt it was a newbie climber in search of a new rack, but who knows. Pack was my well beaten up, 15-year-old Wild Country crag pack (can't remember name), about 2500 cub in or less. Color was Husky purple, with 2 yellow daisy chains running down the outside. Contained the following: - wallet w/ DL, cards - wedding ring(Gold "Comfort Ring") - Sprint cell phone - one set Camalots, 0.1 - 4.0, mostly newer single stems (# 0.5. 0.75, 4.0 were older double stems) - one set mostly older WC Rocks - original, old pair of LaSportiva Megas (white w/ purple laces) - newer pair of LaSportiva successor to the above (can't remember name, no longer made, a light red in color) - 15 quickdraws on purple Spectra 11" slings, and a few Petzl bones - half dozen-plus locking biners for TR set-ups - half dozen runners including 4 newer yellow Mammut - 3-4 lengths of TR webbing - old Grigri - couple older BD daisy chains - couple older 6-mm x 25' cordelletes Almost all the biners were newer BD: Mostly Neutrinos, a bunch of HotWires, 6 Positrons (BD's standard keylock that came out new last year), 6 or so OvalWires, 6 or so lockers. All gear is marked with WHITE-BLUE-WHITE electrical tape. I had just re-taped everything. I was thinking about engraving things, but too late now. Most of this gear was newer stuff I had replaced in the last 1-2 years. I immediately canceled the lone credit card (actually a debit card), and service on the cell phone. I reported it to the cops, and will look up the phone serial number of the phone and report that. Of significance in the wallet other than my debit card and DL were my auto and health insurance ID cards. Right afterwards, and not expecting much, I drove down main roads leading away from Minne, looking for the pack on the side of the road, etc., but no luck. I'll be checking the area pawn shops, mainly to get my ring back, but am not holding out much hope. I've got homeowner's insurance, which will cover at least the climbing gear. We've had problems in the past with basher-and-dashers with our cars parked near Minne, but like I said, taking a crag pack at the base of the climbs is a new one. I blame myself for leaving it for someone to take, and want the rest of you to beware out there. If any of you see what you think might be my gear or pack, don't hesitate to do what would be appropriate, and get in touch with me ASAP. I haven't had anything ripped from me for about 14 years...anybody have any special advice? Thanks, Steve Reynolds

Thanks, Jake. Yeah, it would have been hard to jump in, but we do share our ropes when we can. I'd be glad to climb or boulder with you anytime. Bouldering is what really drew me to Minne in the first place. I might have come on a bit strong, but I do stand by what I said. Some of my emotion is certainly from the fact my crag pack got ripped off today. I'll save that for a new topic. --Steve

Albeit a highly skewed TR. Muffy, perhaps I was being oversensitive. But I thought Jake's post needed to called out for what is was, and it was a good opportunity to set the record straight. And sorry, dear, you weren't there. You might have enjoyed our social situation. While our student group is large overall (about 35 students), everything is broken down into smaller groups of 3-4. Instructor to student ratio is 1:2 or less, and instruction is highly individualized, as climbing instruction should be. Minne is a large place, and we were in a couple of the prime bouldering areas. But there was much more out there for anyone to boulder, lead, or TR today. As far as noise and commotion is concerned, it's there, but not from the climbers, as we climbers aren't running around screaming our heads off. The noise and commotion is from this being an urban climbing area: sounds of helicopters and vintage biplanes buzzing overhead from nearby Felts Field, gunshots from an even closer law enforcement shooting range, noise from traffic on the adjacent road.

Jake, You whining crybaby. Why couldn't you have come up and spoken to any of us, rather than feel the need to post your squawking here? If you had approached any of us at the time, including me, we would have gladly talked with you, given you the straight scoop, and it would have been civil I'm sure. We might even have shared a rope with you. Instead you air this crap on this board. First thing I'll say, is that if it wasn't for that "herd," you would not have Minnehaha Rocks for a climbing area, and the property would have been developed for private housing almost 20 years ago. That herd, along with Mountain Gear and Spokane County Parks, teamed together to keep Minnehaha a climbing, hiking, biking area back in the mid to late 1980s. Recently, the herd has been responsible for cleaning the area up, including sandblasting all the graffiti off the main walls and in your prized bouldering area. Time to straighten some things out here. The group was the Spokane Mountaineers--and no, contrary to the popular belief on this board (yeah, I like the caption contests as much as the rest of you) they are not a division of the Sea Mounties. The Spo Mounties may share a common name and interest with the Sea Mounties, but we take pride in being an autonomous outdoors club, representing outdoorspeople of the Inland Northwest since 1915, conserving and preserving recreation properties and open spaces, providing instruction for outdoor activities including climbing, hiking, BC skiing, and a few more mountain- and water-oriented pursuits. We are fortunate to have an excellent safety record (knock on wood), and have not suffered the problems some other large nonprofit outdoor groups and even some guide services have, in regard to accidents. And--for the most part--we try not to disrupt others where we may do our thing. We do have a history of having had a few rather exceptional climbers participate in our programs. We take pride in being a small, fairly flexible, nonbureaucratic (well, at least as much as possible) outdoors club. If you want to know more, you can check out our website at www.spokanemountaineers.org. There is a need in outdoor communities for responsible organizations to provide competent instruction. In regard to what you saw out there, it was our Mountain School. The packs were larger than what you normally see at the crags because earlier in the day, folks hiked up to the top of Beacon Hill IN TRAINING. After all, it’s “Mountain School.” If this had been Rock School or Lead School, you would’ve seen smaller crag packs instead. For many of those people it was there FIRST DAY EVER CLIMBING ON ROCKS. While I and maybe you have soloed hundreds of feet off the ground, and perhaps feel comfortable on boulder problems up to 20’ or more up (well, I used to), it’s not appropriate for beginners, obviously. Ever heard of liability, Jake? Jake, you’re not just a whiner, you’re a spin doctor. Much of what you were describing is exaggerated. That “horizontal” rigging system was the only way to have rigged what is perhaps one of the best little chimneys to teach that technique. Not that it makes much difference, but it was closer to 15’, not 10’, by the time you can step off. Most years it hasn’t been TR’ed, but this is the age of liability. As far as pulling the climber off, well, I can’t speak to that, but I have to question your credibility with this major spin-job post of yours. As far as the group around the corner was concerned, if a guy wanted to downclimb (yeah, we teach downclimbing, too), all the more power to him for downclimbing on TR. In fact, I believe you’ve never climbed that little route, or you would know that in a portion of it, it is easiest to FACE OUT. And if you had climbed it before, you would know not only that but also, overall, that climb is a little awkward for a beginner, which is likely the reason why the person you saw wasn’t having the easiest time of it. You would know that IF you had climbed it. BTW, that little 15’, 5.0 testpiece is called The Cleft. You’re welcome to boulder it sometime (including on the other 364 days of the year or so we don't have a rope on it). As far as the climbs we take up, we try to be cognizant of our impact and others at Minne or elsewhere whenever we gather en masse, but there is simply no other way around it, sorry. That little bouldering area, unfortunately for others like you, is perfect for teaching beginners who are getting up off the ground for the first time ever. HOWEVER, this was only one smaller portion of Minne where we were climbing. And it is for only one day for the whole year that we are in that particular bouldering area. You should have taken the opportunity to explore much of the other prime bouldering around Minne, where there are MANY more problems, and where you WOULD have found solitude today. As far as the firemen are concerned, that is Spokane County’s high-angle rescue team. You know, they have to do training sometimes. It’s good for both you and me, and especially the greater community. They were only taking up one small spot, where the climbs The Hooker and The John are, on the Secondary Face. I’d like to see you boulder those. They’re what, 5.11c/d, in the 20-25’ range? Normally led or TR’ed. I’ve never heard of them being bouldered/soloed. I would be out at Minne tomorrow too, Jake, but I’m going skiing instead. Be warned, the herd will be there. No, not in your bouldering area, you’ll have that back. They will have moved on toward the Main Face and longer climbs. Sorry for those of you who might want to climb on some of these routes we’ll have ropes on, but we are known for sharing our TRs with others who want to climb, if you’d just ask. And next time you’re out there, Jake, you’re welcome to speak to me in person. If you’re civil, I might share a rope with you, or give you a spot on your favorite boulder problem. Steve Reynolds

Right on, Will. As I was going down through this thread, I was wondering if/when I would see the name of Jim Bridwell as "most influential" and "done the most for American climbing." Many others named here deserve credit, including those you mention, but for vision, style, ethics across the broad range of climbing as we know it today, Bird is indeed the most influential, and THE MAN. And, yeah, that WC catalog/brochure about the invention of cams sure is hype and distortion of actual history. While Jardine might have made his contribution to cam design, chippers be damned! Now E-Rock, I haven't exactly been living in a hole, but this is the first I've heard of this: what's the source of this accusation of the Bird wanting to bolt holds on El Cap? If somewhat credible, musta been some line or story made and heard by a fire in a smoky haze...

I've not done Wy'East's summer tele clinic, but have been a student of Shelley's, Nils, others during Nils' annual Beyond the Groomed weekend in mid-Feb--I did that a couple years ago. The Wy'East summer camp is run by Shelley I believe and has the same basic cadre of instructors that gather for Nils' workshops...I can't say enough good about them. You're in for a stellar time if you plan on doing it. Now that I've reviewed the Wy'East site and see their list of summer camp instructors, I'd love to go too, but don't have the $ or time this year...maybe next year. Snoboy, here's a cc.com thread on the general topic from last fall, including some first-hand info from nonanon: tele class

Nice 'fro. Here's a list for ya Snugtop, from a prof of mine from WSU. Start at this page first (where he can keep track of his hit count), then click on "go to list of errors." Paul Brians' Common Errors in English

For those in the eastern WA/northern ID area (near Spokane), there is a WMI-taught WFA course (one weekend-long course) offered every October, usually the second weekend of the month. There's usually also a WMI-taught WFR (week-long course) offered in spring or early summer of each year. If interested, feel free to PM me.

Agree-ee-ee-ee-eed!

Who knows, maybe if they weren't going to get her on lying and obstruction of justice, they would've pressed to get her on insider trading. Seems to me they were out for her.

SEC rules on insider trading. That's a common misperception. On the contrary: the feds didn't charge her on anything to do with insider trading. All the charges brought against her, and for which the jury found her guilty, had to do with lying and "obstruction of justice"--her behavior and cover-up activities--once the feds started investigating her for possible insider trading charges. If Martha had more fully "cooperated" with the feds from the beginning after the initial allegations of wrong-doing, she likely wouldn't be in the trouble she is in now. If the feds thought they had anything on her regarding insider trading, they obviously would have charged her for those too.

Still can't find the story. But looking through the MSHA list of fatal accidents over the past 5 years, most deaths in abandoned mines were the result of drowning. Next were "falls." Poisonous gases or lack of O2 is not nearly as common. That Idaho accident I remember must be more than 5 years old... Serious thread drift: original poster wanted to go caving, not "mining!" Olyclimber, there's lots of caves in WA state. Not nearly as many classic limestone caves as are in BC including Vancouver Island, but WA state sure has great examples of all 3 types... As Layton said, you gotta be in the know, and no caver is gonna give away their good caves to somebody who isn't one of them.

I wouldn't want to tell that to family and friends of a couple kids (or was it one?) who died while exploring an abandoned mine in north Idaho not more than about 5 years ago. Can't remember the whole story. I'd find it on the web if I had the skills of you, Dru...

BB, you talkin bout the new Epic-fabric BD tents or the regular Todd-Tex Biblers? I haven't tried the new Epic tents yet, but understand part of the deal with Epic tent fabric is that it's more breathable than Todd-Tex and Gore-Tex laminate.

Too bad. From Snotel , it seems things got really warm last Friday (up to 50 deg. at 7900'), then moderated. Except for the current wet, slightly above freezing conditions. TG, any recommendations for an overnight weekend trip into the BC in search of freshies? That is, after it cools off a little more again. And would of course have to be preceded by a Fri nite visit to the TG. It's been a number of years since I've skied in the Wallowas (and climbed or hiked for that matter), and would love to get back.

Not tasteless at all. Discussion boards I think are actually very appropriate for media to confirm info, etc. Open communication is best. In the past, the media have actually been schooled by the others on this board, with kid gloves and especially without. I can see why you would be sensitive about things right now, Doug. Even with the bright sunlight streaming in my window right now, it's a sad day. Sorry for their loss, for you and all other friends, family.

Hmmm, repairable in the right hands? Don't know how far gone yours are, Fern. On the second day with a new pair of skis several years ago, I hit a hidden obstacle and ripped about the middle third of one edge off so that it was in a big "U". Also peeled off a big chunk of the base. Thought the skis were toast, but took it in to a local shop to confirm. The Tech guru there not only repaired the base with a new rectangular chunk of p-tex base, but got that edge reattached. Skied em in races and on ice and hardpack for several years after that. I recall it only cost about $35.

How'd you break your handle? Did ya pry instead of cut blocks out before removing snow? And did BD indeed say "handle breakages" is why they were out (I note the word "apparently"...)? Call me skeptical... I just noticed this topic is double-posted in both Gear Critic and Yard Sale. Does a moderator want combine both so posts are in one or the other?

Finally clicked on this thread; can't believe there's so much discussion about something I thought had become pretty well standardized by now. The BD Designer comment, even though it was made by credible Chris Harmston (who has since moved on), was from 1995, a whole 9 years ago. Current are your 2 references at the BD and AMGA websites. Bottom line: Belay biner can cross-load when passed through the swami belt and leg loops, and obviously should be attached just at the belay loop, for both belaying and rapping. And when belaying a lead climber, it is best to pass your belay biner through both the belay loop AND the rope you are tied into with your partner.

You go BC in T-Races? Your last name Gronvold? Or do you just have a serious tolerance for pain? As for the majority of telemark skiiers - you talking about the telemarktips crowd? From what I can tell, a majority of them ski more at resorts than BC. Agressiveness is in your head, not whats on your feet. I'm only a quarter Norwegian. I ski about 60% BC/40% resort. Get out about 30-40x a year. Any of my plastics have been much more comfortable than any of my leathers, but that's mainly due to the plastics being double-boots: having an inner liner moving inside the plastic shell. Even with great care, it was not too uncommon for me to get blisters on long tours or big vertical days with my old leathers. I actually had more of a tolerance to pain when skiing with those leathers. Once I realized how comfy plastics were, the leathers were GONE. And I'm even more comfortable in T-Races than my older T2s... When touring or climbing, I keep the main in-step (middle) buckle snug (keeps my heel down and helps to avoid that whole blister thing) but the top buckle and the power strap are way loose to allow for maximum forward ankle flex. The fact that plastics are hinged (vs. old leathers) helps, too. Aggressiveness is indeed in the head, but I sure wouldn't be keeping up with my alpine/AT, boarding and strong tele buddies in leathers, either in the BC or at the resorts. Plastics make it all possible, and as far as I'm concerned--as far as what's available on the market--the bigger the better.

Post edited: Sorry for my digression and attempt at humor...it doesn't belong in this thread, which is really quite serious. Iain said it best with his simple answer. Carry on...

Yes, you can even have them attached to tele skis: 1. One pair 190-cm length 1999 Tua Excalibur monocoque (capped) AT/tele ski, mounted with upgraded Pit Bull bindings , skied two seasons, very good condition, $150. Classic BC ski, good for inbounds too, dimensions 90-70-80 mm, original retail over $500 with bindings. Used for two seasons, mostly as a BC and volcano ski. 2. One pair 207-cm Elan 45 skis mounted with Voile Release and Voile Cable binding system with brakes , very good condition, $75. Original retail of skis over $400, original retail binding system over $150. I used these skis for racing and hardpack days...have skied on them less than 15 times over a 6-year period.

Alex, Your points are well-taken, but I think you are in the minority of T-mark skiers out there in recommending leather over plastic to learn on. Wardo, You say you are skiing mostly inbounds and want to learn. I started out in the days of low-topped leather boots more than 20 years ago (DOESN'T make me a good skier, or give me more credibility than Alex ). More than leather vs. plastic, you are going to learn better by simply getting in your TIME ON THE SNOW. Don’t go out just once a week: get out there both weekend days, and 1-2 evenings too if you can. Leather or plastic is secondary. Also more important than leather vs. plastic is skiing with someone more experienced who can help you with your technique and give you appropriate feedback and instruction, as you need it. If you don’t have any tele mentor friends, there’s lots of good formal PSIA-certified tele instructors out there. My fav one is Nils of freeheels.com. Over the years, Nils has helped me many times by having the uncanny ability of knowing exactly what 1-2 things to say for me to work on and jump to the next level. I have to agree with AllYouCanEat and others. I went through the whole progression from touring leather boots, to the Merrell Legend, to the Ultra, to the SuperComp. I originally resisted moving to plastic. Once I moved away from the cow about 10 years ago, my skiing and technique improved by quantum leaps. I have actually learned more on plastics than I did compared to many years on leather. Once I put on plastics, I realized I could ski more aggressively, and that's when I learned more. I've exclusively been on T-Races the last 3 years—including all my BC trips. Certainly you may have better sensitivity with leather, but if you want keep up with your alpine in-bounds buddies, ski aggressively both in- and out-of-bounds, and I think learn more/faster/better, don’t go with anything less than a T1. Plastic does it all. Plastic PLASTIC! PLASTIC! PLASTIC!

The main reason I mentioned the need for KF to take a Level One class because of his mention that only one in five of those in his group had any formal avy training. I, like KF, have read (but cannot recall source) that those with Level One avy experience or greater are indeed more likely to be in an avalanche than those without any training. There are at least two steps to avoiding avalanches: first is acquiring and having the knowledge, and second is knowing how to use it. Tremper has a lot of good to say about this in his final chapter on "The Human Factor." He cites, from a study by Dale Atkins of CO Avy Info Ctr, "of victims who had at least some level of avalanche education, human factors accounted for 82% of accidents and lack of judgment accounted for three times the number of accidents than lack of knowledge." Of course this doesn't mean one shouldn't go blindly and ignorantly into the BC. At least with having knowledge, there is the chance to use judgment, and hopefully that judgment is good. Education should not be a substitute for judgment nor promote a false sense of security. And avy education does not end with any formal class, but is ongoing and lasts a lifetime. May you continue to find the good snow out there KF, and may you never come close to another avalanche.