pindude

Still can't find the story. But looking through the MSHA list of fatal accidents over the past 5 years, most deaths in abandoned mines were the result of drowning. Next were "falls." Poisonous gases or lack of O2 is not nearly as common. That Idaho accident I remember must be more than 5 years old... Serious thread drift: original poster wanted to go caving, not "mining!" Olyclimber, there's lots of caves in WA state. Not nearly as many classic limestone caves as are in BC including Vancouver Island, but WA state sure has great examples of all 3 types... As Layton said, you gotta be in the know, and no caver is gonna give away their good caves to somebody who isn't one of them.

I wouldn't want to tell that to family and friends of a couple kids (or was it one?) who died while exploring an abandoned mine in north Idaho not more than about 5 years ago. Can't remember the whole story. I'd find it on the web if I had the skills of you, Dru...

BB, you talkin bout the new Epic-fabric BD tents or the regular Todd-Tex Biblers? I haven't tried the new Epic tents yet, but understand part of the deal with Epic tent fabric is that it's more breathable than Todd-Tex and Gore-Tex laminate.

Too bad. From Snotel , it seems things got really warm last Friday (up to 50 deg. at 7900'), then moderated. Except for the current wet, slightly above freezing conditions. TG, any recommendations for an overnight weekend trip into the BC in search of freshies? That is, after it cools off a little more again. And would of course have to be preceded by a Fri nite visit to the TG. It's been a number of years since I've skied in the Wallowas (and climbed or hiked for that matter), and would love to get back.

Not tasteless at all. Discussion boards I think are actually very appropriate for media to confirm info, etc. Open communication is best. In the past, the media have actually been schooled by the others on this board, with kid gloves and especially without. I can see why you would be sensitive about things right now, Doug. Even with the bright sunlight streaming in my window right now, it's a sad day. Sorry for their loss, for you and all other friends, family.

How'd you break your handle? Did ya pry instead of cut blocks out before removing snow? And did BD indeed say "handle breakages" is why they were out (I note the word "apparently"...)? Call me skeptical... I just noticed this topic is double-posted in both Gear Critic and Yard Sale. Does a moderator want combine both so posts are in one or the other?

Finally clicked on this thread; can't believe there's so much discussion about something I thought had become pretty well standardized by now. The BD Designer comment, even though it was made by credible Chris Harmston (who has since moved on), was from 1995, a whole 9 years ago. Current are your 2 references at the BD and AMGA websites. Bottom line: Belay biner can cross-load when passed through the swami belt and leg loops, and obviously should be attached just at the belay loop, for both belaying and rapping. And when belaying a lead climber, it is best to pass your belay biner through both the belay loop AND the rope you are tied into with your partner.

You go BC in T-Races? Your last name Gronvold? Or do you just have a serious tolerance for pain? As for the majority of telemark skiiers - you talking about the telemarktips crowd? From what I can tell, a majority of them ski more at resorts than BC. Agressiveness is in your head, not whats on your feet. I'm only a quarter Norwegian. I ski about 60% BC/40% resort. Get out about 30-40x a year. Any of my plastics have been much more comfortable than any of my leathers, but that's mainly due to the plastics being double-boots: having an inner liner moving inside the plastic shell. Even with great care, it was not too uncommon for me to get blisters on long tours or big vertical days with my old leathers. I actually had more of a tolerance to pain when skiing with those leathers. Once I realized how comfy plastics were, the leathers were GONE. And I'm even more comfortable in T-Races than my older T2s... When touring or climbing, I keep the main in-step (middle) buckle snug (keeps my heel down and helps to avoid that whole blister thing) but the top buckle and the power strap are way loose to allow for maximum forward ankle flex. The fact that plastics are hinged (vs. old leathers) helps, too. Aggressiveness is indeed in the head, but I sure wouldn't be keeping up with my alpine/AT, boarding and strong tele buddies in leathers, either in the BC or at the resorts. Plastics make it all possible, and as far as I'm concerned--as far as what's available on the market--the bigger the better.

Post edited: Sorry for my digression and attempt at humor...it doesn't belong in this thread, which is really quite serious. Iain said it best with his simple answer. Carry on...

Alex, Your points are well-taken, but I think you are in the minority of T-mark skiers out there in recommending leather over plastic to learn on. Wardo, You say you are skiing mostly inbounds and want to learn. I started out in the days of low-topped leather boots more than 20 years ago (DOESN'T make me a good skier, or give me more credibility than Alex ). More than leather vs. plastic, you are going to learn better by simply getting in your TIME ON THE SNOW. Don’t go out just once a week: get out there both weekend days, and 1-2 evenings too if you can. Leather or plastic is secondary. Also more important than leather vs. plastic is skiing with someone more experienced who can help you with your technique and give you appropriate feedback and instruction, as you need it. If you don’t have any tele mentor friends, there’s lots of good formal PSIA-certified tele instructors out there. My fav one is Nils of freeheels.com. Over the years, Nils has helped me many times by having the uncanny ability of knowing exactly what 1-2 things to say for me to work on and jump to the next level. I have to agree with AllYouCanEat and others. I went through the whole progression from touring leather boots, to the Merrell Legend, to the Ultra, to the SuperComp. I originally resisted moving to plastic. Once I moved away from the cow about 10 years ago, my skiing and technique improved by quantum leaps. I have actually learned more on plastics than I did compared to many years on leather. Once I put on plastics, I realized I could ski more aggressively, and that's when I learned more. I've exclusively been on T-Races the last 3 years—including all my BC trips. Certainly you may have better sensitivity with leather, but if you want keep up with your alpine in-bounds buddies, ski aggressively both in- and out-of-bounds, and I think learn more/faster/better, don’t go with anything less than a T1. Plastic does it all. Plastic PLASTIC! PLASTIC! PLASTIC!

The main reason I mentioned the need for KF to take a Level One class because of his mention that only one in five of those in his group had any formal avy training. I, like KF, have read (but cannot recall source) that those with Level One avy experience or greater are indeed more likely to be in an avalanche than those without any training. There are at least two steps to avoiding avalanches: first is acquiring and having the knowledge, and second is knowing how to use it. Tremper has a lot of good to say about this in his final chapter on "The Human Factor." He cites, from a study by Dale Atkins of CO Avy Info Ctr, "of victims who had at least some level of avalanche education, human factors accounted for 82% of accidents and lack of judgment accounted for three times the number of accidents than lack of knowledge." Of course this doesn't mean one shouldn't go blindly and ignorantly into the BC. At least with having knowledge, there is the chance to use judgment, and hopefully that judgment is good. Education should not be a substitute for judgment nor promote a false sense of security. And avy education does not end with any formal class, but is ongoing and lasts a lifetime. May you continue to find the good snow out there KF, and may you never come close to another avalanche.

KF, thanks for the report. Glad you were okay. Your post makes me wonder about many other things, in addition to exactly where at WP. - What was elevation? - Aspect(compass direction) slope was facing? - And very important, slope angle? - What type of tree (like spruce with boughs that anchor in the snow, or like a pine or birch tree with bare trunks that avalanches easily pass around? KF, my post here is in part a response to you, but is also for others who may not be very experienced in the BC. I'm not sure exactly what your BC experience is (# days, # years) and I'm wanting to be helpful without sounding too harsh. But I'll say straight up that if you like to do that type of BC skiing, it's obvious you need to RUN to the next Avy Level One class and get some formal training yourself for starters. If you haven't read it, there's one book any BC boarder or skier should read: Tremper's "Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain." If that's too much to chew on for now, something smaller to supplement it, and quicker to digest, is Fredston and Fesler's "Snow Sense" or Jamieson's "Backcountry Avalanche Awareness." Avy awareness is an on-going, life-long process, and is learned both formally (through classes) and informally through experience in the BC with others, both of which are valuable. Any boarder or skier venturing out into the BC owes it to themself and those around them to take at least a Level One class (RAC in Canada), which usually costs less than a transceiver. Avy guru Jill Fredston says that from 3 to 5 clues are overlooked in the average avy accident...I would suspect that yours had some clues too, and that if you were more aware of them, you may have avoided what you went through. Here's to rippin up the BC pow, and staying safe. --Steve Reynolds

One of the few things I brought back from across the border last year. Saw them in Nelson Snow-Pack; guys and gals in that town are pretty hip to what's happenin. Still haven't seen the torch lighters in a US outdoor store, but I don't get around too much. Sure beats the old Bic. When headed outdoors, I don't leave leave home without it now.

Sitting here at home in the NW, knowing that OR is happening right now and the beer consumption rate in SLC is going way up this weekend, and reading the "new BD gear" thread...I got to thinkin (dangerous, I know). For the cc.comers at the trade show, what is the newest, latest, greatest gear that we won't be able to live without?

BD Termigaiters are good. Whatever happened to OR AT gaiters? Went to OR's site, but don't see those anymore...I still have an older mostly unused pair (wanna buy for cheap?). My pants cover my boots pretty well too, so have had no need for gaiters for many years, even for the fresh. Carhartts, yeah Lummox, they work great. And of course there's Levi's and Wrangler Boot Cuts, too.

Timing is everything.

The New York Times January 18, 2004 You Think That Other Mountain Was Cold? By BRUCE BARCOTT OT long ago I asked a friend who climbs mountains for a living to name his favorite climbing movies. He paused. "Man, they're all so awful," he said. "It'd be easier to give you a list that started at bad and went down to very, very bad." When movies meet mountains, bad cinema results. Consider "Vertical Limit" (2000), which finds mountaineering so dull that it adds nitroglycerin into the mix. Or "Cliffhanger" (1993), the Sylvester Stallone vehicle propelled by evildoers and stolen loot. The 1997 television adaptation of Jon Krakauer's classic Everest book, "Into Thin Air," proved so unwatchable that the rescued climbers probably outnumbered the audience by the end. The singular exception remains "The Eiger Sanction," Clint Eastwood's 1975 spy thriller set on the north face of the Eiger, a sheer Swiss alp that is one of climbing's most deadly proving grounds. Mountaineers revere the film, which was released on DVD last year, because in the third act Mr. Eastwood climbs the Eiger himself. The action was so real that a falling boulder killed one of the movie's climbing crew on the second day of shooting. What makes "The Eiger Sanction" respected by mountaineers also makes it compelling to the rest of us: the actors didn't act; they climbed. That, it turned out, made a pretty good movie. It's only taken three decades to make another one. In "Touching the Void," which is to open Friday in New York and Feb. 6 in Los Angeles, Kevin Macdonald has stitched together elements of documentary and dramatic re-enactment to create a film that should satisfy both moviegoers and the crampon crowd. Mr. Macdonald, who won an Academy Award for "One Day in September" (2000), his documentary about the 1972 attack on the Israeli Olympic team in Munich, did it by employing the Eastwood rule — put the climbers on the rock. "Touching the Void" tells the true story of a harrowing climb that has become part of mountaineering legend. Joe Simpson and Simon Yates, two young, fit, cocky British climbers, set out in the spring of 1985 to scale the unclimbed west face of Siula Grande, a 20,800-foot peak in the Peruvian Andes. Previous parties had attempted its near-vertical wall of ice and rock and failed. "My feeling was, well, we'll just do it," Mr. Simpson says in the film. "We're better." After a two-day hike from the nearest road, the climbers made camp with Richard Hawking, a new friend they'd met in a Lima flophouse. Mr. Hawking wasn't a climber, but Mr. Simpson and Mr. Yates invited him along for company and to guard their tents while they climbed. For his part, Mr. Hawking just wanted to see the Andes up close. The climbers made the summit in three days. Soon after beginning their descent, Mr. Simpson fell and broke his leg, the impact driving his shinbone into the knee with a sickening crunch. With no way to summon help, Mr. Yates began lowering Mr. Simpson down the mountain one 300-foot rope length at a time. Whenever the rope ran out, Mr. Simpson dug into the steep ridge face and waited for Mr. Yates to climb down. Then they repeated the process. In the dark of night, Mr. Yates accidentally lowered Mr. Simpson off a cliff. Dangling above a seemingly bottomless crevasse, Mr. Simpson could neither climb the rope nor reach the cliff wall. Mr. Yates held the rope for nearly an hour. The constant pressure slowly eroded his anchor. "I was being pulled off," he later recalled. "I slipped a few inches. Stamping my feet deep into the slope halted the movement. God! I had to do something!" What he did is still debated around cookstoves and base camps 18 years later. Mr. Yates took out a knife and cut the rope. Mr. Simpson not only survived to tell the tale, he told it extraordinarily well. "Touching the Void," the book he wrote partly to exonerate Mr. Yates in the eyes of the climbing world, became a surprise best seller in England. Water-warped copies can now be found in climbing huts all over the world. Movie producers optioned the book soon after its publication, in 1988. But nobody could figure out how to make it. "The problem is, most of the book is a monologue," Mr. Macdonald said by telephone from his home in London. "It looks like an action adventure story, but actually it's very interior and psychological." Mr. Macdonald, 36, thought its moral and philosophical questions might speak to a nonclimbing audience. But moving the story to film was difficult. There were not enough firsthand images to support a documentary and not enough opportunities for dialogue to support a drama. The climbers were alone through most of the ordeal. "There are ways around it," Mr. Macdonald said. " `Cast Away' did it by having Tom Hanks talk to a volleyball." Mr. Macdonald's solution was to combine drama and documentary. He filmed young actors re-enacting the climb, then cut in contemporary interviews with Mr. Simpson, Mr. Yates and Mr. Hawking. The outcome is an existential drama straight out of Beckett. The jug-eared, happy-go-lucky Mr. Yates agonizes over his decision to cut the rope. The intense, ambitious Mr. Simpson confronts his own atheism and struggles to live even when there seems no point. Mr. Hawking, the outside observer, is a one-man Greek chorus. In preparing to film "Touching the Void," Mr. Macdonald screened previous mountain movies and noted all the ways they could go wrong. "The crevasse in `Vertical Limit' doesn't even look cold," he said. The two films that impressed him were "Eiger Sanction" and Werner Herzog's "Scream of Stone" (1991), about two climbers battling to notch the first ascent of Cerro Torre, a terrifying granite spire in Argentina. It isn't much as drama, but its final reel contains some of the most breathtaking climbing sequences ever shot. The Herzog film highlights the quandary of every mountain-movie director: whether to hire climbers to act or actors to climb. Mr. Herzog cast the great Bavarian freeclimber Stefan Glowacz as his leading man. He climbed spectacularly, acted woodenly. Mr. Macdonald decided to cast actors who could climb. That ruled out established stars — not that his $2.7 million budget could have accommodated them. After a long search he found Brendan Mackey and Nicholas Aaron, two British actors who "knew about rock, weren't scared of heights and were very keen to do it," Mr. Macdonald said. The crew decamped to the Swiss town of Grindelwald (where "Eiger" was filmed), trekked into the Alps and shot the climbing and crevasse sequences during the worst local snowstorm in 10 years. Mr. Macdonald spent weeks tossing Mr. Mackey (as Simpson) and Mr. Aaron (as Yates) down steep slopes and dangling them in crevasses. "I kept saying to them: `Don't act. Just do it,' " Mr. Macdonald said. The European Alps couldn't entirely stand in for Siula Grande, though. To get authentic shots, Mr. Macdonald left the actors home and took Mr. Simpson and Mr. Yates, along with a few crew members, to Peru. Even with a stripped-down crew, it took 70 donkeys and seven porters to haul cameras and gear to the mountain's base. Once they got there, the psychological burden nearly overwhelmed Mr. Simpson. "We asked Joe to stand in for himself on a number of shots," Mr. Macdonald said. "It was a little strange, Joe playing an actor playing Joe. But he agreed to put on his costume, including a brace around his leg, and walk up a valley while we filmed from half a mile away. He was all alone out there and had an intense flashback. It was as if he was back in 1985 — that the intervening 18 years were just a fantasy and he'd woken up on the rocks and hadn't been saved." Mr. Yates had no similar moment, but the return stirred intense emotions. Although Mr. Simpson has always defended him, in climbing circles Mr. Yates has never shaken his notoriety as the Man Who Cut the Rope, and the return to Siula drained him of his characteristic good humor. "It was hard for him to be back there," Mr. Macdonald recalled. "There were days when Simon wasn't talking to Joe or me or any of the crew." Shortly after the trip, Mr. Yates declined to participate further in the documentary. "I think he's fed up with the story and wants to move on," Mr. Macdonald said. "Which you can understand. I think it's haunted his life." Mr. Simpson and Mr. Yates continue to climb — separately. Mr. Simpson has written five more books; he is one of mountaineering's most popular authors and public speakers. Mr. Yates operates an adventure travel company in northern England. His first American book, "The Flame of Adventure," was published two years ago. As for Mr. Macdonald, he had known nothing about mountain climbing before reading "Touching the Void." "One of the things that attracted me to the book," he said, "was how terrifying this sort of mountaineering seemed. I thought that once I saw it up close, I'd overcome that fear and want to do it. But having spent time in the mountains, I now think they're more crazy than I did before."

There's some insight to be gained by this NYT review.

Theatrical release dates at official website

Thanks MM, Joe is as good an interviewee as he is a writer!

Nothing scheduled yet for Spokane, but Mountain Gear is working on bringing it in. As soon as they confirm everything, I'm sure it will be publicized not only through the store but through local rag advertising such as Inlander, Local Planet, S-R Sunday Outdoors section. Being the indie film it is, it is not getting widespread screenings at the "regular" theatres, but perhaps that will present more opportunities for groups, etc. that want to do the work to bring the film in and sponsor it. I personally feel that Touching the Void is the most gripping, first-person, true climbing narrative ever told. I'm looking forward to seeing the flick after hearing the reviews from friends and others who have seen it at Banff Film Fest, etc. Perhaps if it's as good as people say, it will screen in more theatres and run for longer periods of time than now scheduled...?

Ah, but DPB deathsicles DID come down on Saturday, when the arctic front moved in and the temps were also crashing down... So, Chris, how did you like playing Russian Roulette on Sunday, or did you even know?

Victim was among a group of 4 snowmobilers. From KXLY news story : "Rescue crews say McDougal was the only one in his group not carrying a transmitter beacon." Olympian/AP news story

What, Sobo?! You won't take a $100 profit! What's your price, then?! Yeah, I still have those hexes. Two years ago I had what I thought were two promising but poor climbers who I might be able to give them away to, but they both faded away from climbing. So I still have them, waiting for some young kid who can't afford to start a lead rack but is really into climbing , and who I know will be a "climber for life" and thus worthy of em. Cheers, pindude

Speaking of Dee Molenaar and brushes with greatness, have you seen his personal copy of his book "The Challenge of Rainier"? He took the first copy off the press and for years carried it with him to any lecture or meeting were mountaineers were present. It's full of signatures of climbers like Hillary, Tenzing, Shipton, O'Dell, Bonatti, Messner and so on. I met Dee at a lecture and book signing for "Cascade Voices" by Mac Bates. To my surprise, he asked me to sign his Rainier book. In my copy of "Cascade Voices" he wrote above his picture: "To a younger generation role model, Berg Heil!" Boy, that made me feel good. Now that I'm not sober, I realize I actually have met Dee...shook hands and chatted with him at the last AAC meet in Seattle. Class act is right. But I really did miss my chance by not taking up an opportunity to climb with him--when I really would have gotten to know him better--through mutual friend Porter (now that's a great name). Sobo, I'll give you $300 for that watercolor... Lowell, here in Spokane our own Joe Collins--who most of you never have heard of but was mentor to Roskelley and Kopzcynski in the 60s to early 70s--has a book or two much like Dee's 1st copy of "Challenge of Rainier." I don't recall Shipton or O'Dell, but he has the 3 others' signatures, and an incredible number of others dating back to the 40s and 50s. John and Kop were even tasked with taking books with them on their Himalayan and other travels to get signatures of "greatness" through the 70s and 80s. Joe continues to get signatures and photos of every great who passes through. One of the better things about the climbing community, is that we *do* get to meet a lot of the folks who have made our sport what it is. I feel pretty fortunate for most of those who I've had a chance to climb and ski with, "greatness" or not. --Steve Reynolds