pindude

quote: Originally posted by mattp: I am tired of the stiff suspension and cramped quarters in my Toyota 4x4 and I believe a car is probably better suited to what I do with my vehicle 95% of the time: commute, run errands, and otherwise drive on well-maintained roads. Matt, do you have a standard cab? I found the older standard cab to be too short, but the extended cab allows the seat to go back further and gives just enough leg room for this mere six-footer to not cramp up on all-day drives. While the extended cab isn't good for much else, it is a spot to put extra gear so it's out of the way and not cramping up the seats. I've got the older style '94, the last year before the Tacoma came out. I also use it 95% of time to commute. But wouldn't trade it for anything, it's still running strong and I'll keep it 'til it's run into the ground, 230,000 miles so far. Most dependable rig I've ever had (puts my older trucks of Ford, Dodge, and 2 GMCs to shame...can't wait for the spray now). Suspension is just right, not too stiff for a truck. Good clearance for some of the FS roads over here in the INW to be able to get to warmer weather climb spots and get through snow to BC ski areas. Also dependable for those long trips to the Icefields Parkway, or south to Cali and other SW destinations. I can't think of a car that would replace my Toyota truck, so am curious to see if you get good answers here. Don't know if the Tacoma extended cab is big enough, my next rig might be a Tundra, but that's probably still a few years away.

This forum is where the topic belongs...but was originally posted a coupla weeks ago on the Climber's Board: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003251 Regardless, climbers: if you haven't written the Gallatin Forest folks yet, DO IT NOW. Put your money where your mouth/brain/fingers are; it's easier even than chewing on HC or spewing forth spray. Save Hyalite Canyon access!

quote: Originally posted by Juan: ...Guide service is Camp5 out of Salt Lake. Al Burgess is part owner...The idea here is to get high, and hopefully get high, and have fun in the sun in Mexico... If you're with either of the Burgesses, you sure will. Excellent climbers, even better story tellers, fun to be with. I don't know many in this world who can keep up with their stories--they each have several lifetimes' worth--and their elbow-raises in and outside the bar. If you're being guided by them, sure hope you're doing more than a standard route! As far as guiding goes, at least it's by them. Not to diss any amigos, but a buddy in the 80s was fairly new to climbing, went down there solo, and was guided by locals to the top of Orizaba. They made him wear a harness the whole way up the standard route, and he kept wondering when they were gonna rope up. They never did. Finally, nearing the top, he asks why they made him wear his harness and bring other climbing gear including his rope. They said, "To bring your body down if you die, gringo!"

I should have known at least some of you here would have found that, next time I'll search a little better. Either I'm spending too little time on this site, or too much!

Update today from Barrel Mountaineering. If you haven't provided your comments to the USFS, take the time to do it now. And if you have, it will help to do so again and include the "important points" included below. -------------- Hyalite Canyon Ice Climbing Access Threatened **Please read this e-mail** **Please send your comments to the Forest Service today** **Please forward this e-mail to any climbers/backcountry users you know** The Gallatin National Forest has released a Benchmark Travel Management Plan that would seriously impact access to the ice climbing in Hyalite Canyon just South of Bozeman, Montana. The benchmark plan would result in the road being plowed to the Langhor Campground at which point a gate would block the road. Beyond the gate the remainder of the road would be groomed for snowmobiles and skiers. If implemented, this plan would force ice climbers to reach the climbs by either snowmobile or by skiing a minimum of 8 miles one-way [to climb Genesis I-the closest climb-would involve 4 to 6 hours of skiing]. The process is still very young, and the Forest Service seems willing and ready to listen to public input. It seems that the Forest Service is not aware of how large a user group the ice climbers are or how important Hyalite is to ice climbing in the Northern Rockies. Therefore it is important to realize that the sooner we all contact the Forest Service the more likely they are to amend the plan and include access to the ice climbs. The first public comment period ends Friday, November 22, 2002 If you are "from out of town/state/region", the important message to convey in your comments is that Hyalite Canyon is nationally and internationally know for the quality and quantity of ice climbs. Please also inform the Forest Service if you have ever climbed ice in Hyalite...how many times and when. If you have not climbed in Hyalite, stress that you plan to or would like to be able to in the future, and therefore, continued access to the climbs is critical. Below are some important points to include in your written comments: 1. Indicate how many times you went ice climbing up in Hyalite last Winter. These "user days" are how the Forest Service quantifies a specific use of Forest lands. 2. Stress that Hyalite Canyon is the only ice climbing area within 150 miles of Bozeman. Therefore, it is imperative that the Forest Service preserve the access to the ice climbs and this important group of public land users. 3. Point out that snowmobiling and skiing are valid recreational activities, but they can be practiced in many places where waterfall ice climbing is unavailable. In Hyalite, Langhor and Moser Creek could still be reserved for cross-country skiing. Other areas conducive to non-motorized use, and particularly cross-country skiing, include Brackett Creek, Sourdough/Bozeman Creek, and Bear Canyon. These are three geographically different areas provide easy access from Bozeman and feature topography that lends itself to cross-country skiing. It seems that the Benchmark Travel Plan provides plenty of other options for motorized, specifically snowmobile, winter use. 4. Suggest that an alternative to the existing Benchmark Plan would be to plow the road to Hyalite Reservoir and clear out the Blackmore Parking Area as a winter turnaround/parking area. Then allow Forest users to continue to drive up the road as long as conditions allowed, similar to the current situation. The reservoir could provide a convenient place to "dispose" of the plowed snow that would ultimately melt and contribute to the water supply during the Spring and Summer. To review the Travel Plan visit the following URL: http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/gallatin/projects/travel_planning/index.shtml Contact the Forest Service [Must be postmarked by Friday, November 22] WRITE: Gallatin National Forest Attn: Steve Christiansen PO Box 131 Bozeman, MT 59771 E-MAIL: mailroom_r1_gallatin@fs.fed.us put "Travel Plan Comments" in subject line ON-LINE COMMENT FORM: http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/gallatin/projects/travel_planning/html/form_comments_gnf.html Thanks for your attention and activism. Please feel free to contact us with any questions. Barrel Mountaineering 240 East Main Street Bozeman MT 59715 406.582.1335 ph 406.582.1302 fx http://www.barrelmountaineering.com

Quick clarification: Re-reading Rick's message, he offers to remove any offending bolts. I don't mean to dishonor his message by suggesting anyone head out there to remove his bolts. It's a lot of work to do it right (I've removed a few myself in my time), and takes away from good climb time. While I realize I can't stop someone if they want to chop bolts (and in most cases I applaud it), I request that, at least at Banks Lake as far as Rick's FAs are concerned, you contact him first and have him do the work. Considering his current inaccessibility to cc.com, PM me and I will immediately pass it on. I'll let you know the outcome, and if it's not one of Rick's routes, will gladly let you know that too. [ 11-05-2002, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: pindude ]

I have been asked by one of the Banks Lake first ascensionists, Rick LaBelle, to provide to this thread his words about Banks Lake bolting. Due to internet-accessiblity and firewall issues at his only PC, which he has at a local school, he has not actually read the thread nor can he post to it directly. I verbally told him the gist of it, and he provided a message which I have copied below. Because Rick has not read this thread, it's appropriate I add my own words and preface his message. I agree whole-heartedly bolts have no business next to protectable cracks. And at Banks Lake, I have not seen a bolt deliberately placed next to a protectable crack. But yes, at Banks there currently are bolts next to cracks. I was hoping they would be removed by the FA parties before there was any public notice--or internet-lynching as can potentially be the case here. That said, developing new routes at Banks requires an extraordinary amount of work. The granite most of the routes are on at Banks is the poorest quality I've been on. It's nothing like the granite of the Sierra and Yosemite, nor does it compare to Leavenworth and what we have through most of the Cascades. I am not a geologist, but have been told this particular granite is very old--it lies underneath the basalt layer which makes up most of the Columbia gorge, and thus has gone through many geologic changes. Sometimes the rock is of such poor quality it's difficult to find even a good bolt placement. Tapping on the rock with a hammer reveals much of the rock to be fairly unsound--if you are developing routes out there, you must be able to adequately judge the quality of the rock where you are drilling. Another poster to this board I believe correctly identified the rock as granitic gneiss. While it varies around the lake, bottom line, it's very chossy and cannot be trusted, even on well-traveled, relatively clean routes. On established routes I always test each hold and I've learned to have at least a wire brush to continue to clean whatever I'm on. I have helped to develop routes, on both cracks and faces, at Vantage, Banks Lake, and other areas around Spokane. The routes developed at Banks, outside of the quality of rock, are some of the dirtiest I've seen on the dry side of the Cascades--I've been able to appreciate this better over the past year. In addition to having to trundle tons of dangerous choss, rock is covered with large amounts of lichen and moss which which must be picked out and brushed off. All this work takes literally hours per route. Personally, I cannot take credit for any FAs at Banks, but I have spent many hours to help clean both the traditionally protected cracks and the faces there. If you are headed out to Banks, bring a helmet, and while on lead have a wire brush and nut tool for cleaning. If you're bringing a crowbar, I hope you'll mostly be cleaning choss with it, and have intentions of putting in the work to put up a new route or two. If you do remove a bolt at Banks, make sure the surrounding rock is absolutely sound and capable of holding protection, the resultant hole is camouflaged properly, and the hanger returned to the first ascensionist if it is not to be placed right away on a new route out there. From Rick LaBelle: "Of the 100 climbs (125 pitches) currently finished at Banks Lake, I know of three that include 30 feet or more of "bolted cracks." Others have maybe 10 feet of bolted crack on an 80-foot climb of a bolted, blank face. This is not the equivalent of bolting the well-jointed granite of Leavenworth. The ancient stone at Banks is hollow in places, shot through with dikes, and often has the consistency of glued-together sand. Two of the bolted cracks were originally eroding dikes which, after much crowbar work, now resemble cracks, but whether they can be safely plugged with gear is a judgment call. On the north end of the northwest face of Highway Rock the original route, "Pas de Cheval," has a bolted crack. It was conceived as a bolted slab-and-ramp climb in 1997. After several seasons with a crowbar and wire brush, friends and I have removed hundreds of pounds of hardened moss, up to 8 inches thick, to reveal several solid but still dirty cracks. Once the wind and traffic remove more the detritus, I'll remove the bolts that gave us access to the area. If people are concerned about bolted cracks, that tells me that six years of labor with problematic stone are finally bearing fruit." -------------------- Steve Reynolds Spokane

original post: 8:07 p.m. Lambone's post: 8:08 p.m. Damn, Lambone, you're a quick reader!

Don't know if this topic has been posted before. Anybody have a TR that can top this? Thanks to Karl Baba for posting it at supertopo...says it was posted anonymously 3 years ago. Kinda long, but worth it. ------------------- From: H. Yohen Subject: TR - Leaning Tower Date: 09 Jul 1999 00:00:00 GMT West Face -- Leaning Tower 8-10 pitches Grade V, 5.7, A2 This whole year has been a climbing write-off for me. Except for one week-long vacation I haven't climbed shit. During the Winter and Spring, my regular partners scattered all across the country so I filled my sparetime watching TV and eating pizza (interspersed with the occasional beer). Wayne, who had also suffered a rash of partner defections, tried to coax me from my sloth with an audacious mid-week excursion to the promised land. "Hey, let's fly into SF on Monday and drive out to Yos. We climb Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. Then we fly back late Thursday night and get to work on Friday," Wayne outlined the plan. "I don't know, man. Why don't we take the whole week?" "I can't be gone that long ... family obligations, you know?" "It's kind of expensive for just a few days," I hemmed and hawed. "I can get us a deal on the tickets. We have to get our fat asses out sometime." After more salesmanship, I relented and Wayne made the arrangements. Since I had done so little climbing, I insisted on doing aid, reasoning that even if I was out of shape for climbing, I was fully prepared for some suffering. Two weeks later I sat waiting at an arrival gate at SFO waiting for Wayne's flight -- which was advertised as four hours late. When he stepped off the plane, Wayne had the haggard look of a airline victim. With little conversation, we collected his luggage which consisted of a single haul bag and rented a car. We had planned on driving all the way to the Park that night but our late start forced us to find a motel in Manteca at 2:00 am. Through monumental willpower, I slithered out of bed slightly after 5:00 am and roused Wayne. After showering and checking out, we found a grocery store. On the way, we discussed route options without coming up with any concrete plans. At the store, I got a cart and asked, "What do you want for wall food?" "I don't know," was his helpful reply. "We could start by getting victory beer." "Yeah, okay. It has to be drinkable warm. And come in cans." We stood in the liquor section and debated the merits of various beers. The cases of MGD on sale for $9.99 piqued our interest and prompted Wayne to do some quick math. "Okay, we're on some wall for two days. That means we can have four beers each the first night, four when we top out the second day, and four more when we get down. Sounds about right to me," he remarked with a grin spreading over his face. "Actually, if we got two cases and we only saved two each for when we got down, we could both have 11 beers a day and not even need to haul water." "Yeah, and we could get a bunch of pretzels and cocktail weenies for food." "I wonder," he began, his brow furrowing slightly, "what kind of pretzels would resist crushing the most." At that moment I realized that in Wayne's mind, the idea had crossed the boundary between stupid joke to realizable option. "Forty-four beers," he continued, "what's that, like four gallons? That's about right for fluid. Those weenie cans are pretty small so we should get like four cans each a day. They're packed in water too ..." We left the store with two cases of MGD, sixteen cans of Hormel weenies, three giant bags of pretzel sticks, a roll of duct tape, and some cheap Tupperware-like things to store the pretzels to prevent them from being crushed. We also left the store with a plan. We would haul ass to the Park, climb the first few pitches of the West Face of Leaning Tower, and bivy on Ahwahnee Ledge. Wayne would drive and I would pack the pig on the way. After getting a couple of boxes (to line the inside of the haul bag) from the trash behind the store, we were on our way. By noon we had managed to get our gear to the fourth class ramp and decided we had better celebrate the feat with a beer. After quaffing the brews and crushing and stowing the cans, Wayne lead us across the scary-as-hell ramp while I follow along with the pig. I thought carrying two cases of beer up to the ramp was difficult but the sphincter clenching fear I experienced while teetering along trying to stay in balance with the haul bag pulling me toward the brink was mind bending. Looking up at the steep line of bolts and overwhelmed by the exposure, we figured that a beer ought to calm our nerves. We plopped down by the bar (as we were now calling the haul bag), popped a couple of brews and pulled out some weenies and pretzels. The Tupperware things were holding up just fine and after our satisfying meal, we were ready to roll. It appeared that there were two parties already on the route -- one was high up and looked like they would top out that day and the other was a couple of pitches above us. Since I hauled the bag across the ramp, I was entitled to the first pitch. Even though it was all bolts or fixed gear, the steep factor made it strenuous. A ways out, I had Wayne send me up a beer on the tag line and I reveled in the gratification of hanging on an immense piece of granite high off the ground and hearing the heavenly sound of a pop-top being opened. I polished off the brew, crushed the can against the wall, and tucked it into a handy stuff sack. Wayne combined the next two pitches and cruised. Before I knew it, I was on Guano, getting ready to haul. The two guys ahead of us were working on pitch five, obviously intent on fixing the next two to make the next day shorter. When Wayne joined me, we pulled out a couple of beers and watched the second struggle to clean the traverse. He must have heard our pop-tops since he looked back over toward us and we raised our beers toward him in a toast. It was getting late and those guys wouldn't get done with pitch six until after dark. Content to settle into the Ahwahnee bivy, we ate the balance of our daily weenie ration and had a beer. We spent the rest of the evening watching the other guys working on pitch six and enjoying the sun set -- while having a couple of beers and munching on pretzels. When the other guys rapped back to Ahwahnee, we were already tucked in and practically asleep. The next morning came way too early. I awoke to a need to relieve the massive pressure in my bladder. My head was pounding and I had an absolutely revolting taste in my mouth. I was appalled to realize that the only thing we had to drink was beer. Somehow the practical matter of having to start drinking beer first thing in the morning had never occurred to either of us. I rummaged for Advil in the bar and popped a beer to wash them down. My stirring had roused one of the other guys and he looked at me in horror. Wayne's bladder forced him to get out of his bivy bag and we decided that we should get going since it was going to be a long day. We ate some weenies and pretzels and we did rock-paper-scissors for the fifth pitch. Wayne won. We hardly talked as we prepared and I believe we scared the other two guys since they didn't even say a word to us -- even avoiding all eye contact. Wayne headed out on lead and the other two guys hurriedly jugged their line. After Wayne fixed the line, I couldn't resist the call of nature any more. I clipped our Colman screwtop water jug (masquerading as a shit bucket) and let loose into the comfortably wide orifice. Ah yes, good consistency, if a bit aromatic -- the beer hadn't gotten to my gut just yet. I spent the next hour in purgatory. Cleaning the traversing pitch while carpenters hammered in my head thinking of nothing but a cool glass of water drove me to the edge of madness. Upon reaching the belay, I was just about through. "Wayne, this is just fucking dumb." He looked at me then looked down, "Bailing off this fucker would be lunacy. It's too steep. No where to go but up." He surveyed my ashen complexion and suggested, "Have another beer." I looked at the face to start the next pitch, fumbled with some hooks, then said "Fuck it," and lurched ahead in my boots. Lots of fixed stuff had me cruising to the next belay and Wayne followed up in a jif. Wayne eyed the shit bucket but decided he could hold out for a better stance. At the next belay he couldn't wait any longer. As I approached on jugs, I could see him hopping from foot to foot with a strained expression. I kind of hung off to the side to give Wayne as much of the small ledge as possible to do his thing. Even though I averted my eyes, I was forced to endure the horrid sound of his ass exploding. Then the stench wafted over, hanging in the air like a thick acrid fog. "Holy shit, did something crawl up your ass and die?" "And your shit doesn't smell?" he retorted. "Not like that." We were both parched and we took a moment to pop a couple of beers. While I was rummaging in the bag, I discovered that one of the big Tupperware things holding the pretzels had come open. Subsequently, the freed pretzels had been ground into a wide assortment of chunks and dust. We ate some weenies (especially enjoying the salty, fat laced water they were packed in) and some of the uncrushed pretzels and tried to get back some of our psych. I began the eighth pitch and that is when things came unglued. I was having difficulty operating at any kind of level because I was trashed and the heat was rising fast. Our tempers flared and we shouted obscenities at each other. I had to piss mid-pitch and Wayne accused me of trying to hit him with it. The Evil Tree sank daggers into my back as I passed. In a fog I made it to the top of pitch nine, completely soaked in sweat and barely able to pull the rope through the drag. During our ordeal, the two guys ahead of us kept looking down -- I think grateful we would not catch up to them. After cursing each other up and down between chugs of beer, Wayne lead the last real pitch of the climb. As I followed, I helped along the pig when I could but that didn't prevent Wayne from screaming at me and me hollering back. Before we headed up the last fourth class section, we sat drinking beer, calm for the first time all afternoon. I got the honor of muscling the haul bag up the final bit and I was glad the beer was almost gone. Arriving on the summit, I found that the guys in front of us must have taken pity on us since they left a full two liter bottle of water. At least it was full before Wayne drank most of it while waiting for me and the pig. More profanity was exchanged at an extremely high volume. Still, those few sips of tepid, stale water were the best I could remember. Both of us were spent, our shirts and pants were a lattice work of salt rings, and the back of my t-shirt had red dots on it where I was stuck by the punji sticks. We could do no more than lay immobile while the sun went down. Sometime after dark when we started getting really cold, we pulled out the bivy gear and bedded down for the night. Even though our bivy sacks and sleeping bags had been stuffed, somehow the pretzel detritus had found its way inside. The following morning, I awoke to a powerful urge to defecate but was frightened to open the shit bucket after Wayne's contribution the previous day. I steeled myself and held it at arms length as I twisted off the top. It was horrid and I could hardly bring myself to use it. I filled it nearly to the top and hurriedly screwed on the cap. Wayne stirred and finally crawled out of his bag. The cumulative effect of the climb had taken such a toll on us that the pounding in our heads no longer was the worst of our pain. Thus it became almost inconsequential. Lethargically, we pack up our stuff and prepared for the descent. After I closed up the pig, Wayne began squirming around and eyed the shit bucket. "No more room in there," I warned. He dug into the bag and pulled out one of the Tupperware things and went off a ways, returning with a repulsive package. He used liberal amounts of duct tape to seal up his waste. We popped two of our few remaining beers, quaffed them, and began the treacherous descent. Managing not to kill ourselves, we staggered out to the car. "Fuck, we haven't got anything to drink but beer," I observed upon opening the car. Wayne dropped his pack and leaned stiffly against the car. Bending over and placing his forehead on the roof, his whole body shook and he sent a jet of vomit across the car roof. Wiping puke from his mouth he turned to me and said "I just didn't have the energy to do it anywhere else."

quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: By the way, I have only been there a few times but not all the rock is as funky as was made out in this thread. PP You're right, I might have made it seem worse than it is: there certainly are good routes and rock as well as the crumbly stuff. Overall the granite of Banks is less sound than Vantage's basalt. With all the choss, it's not necessarily a place for the uninitiated, but neither was Vantage before it was discovered and cleaned with ascents by multiple climbers. Banks has yet to see the hordes that descended on Frenchman Coulee once the first guide came out...that was pretty dramatic. But then again I don't think Banks Lake will ever be another Vantage due to drive time, the fact many of these routes will ALWAYS have suspect rock, they are more spread out, and people have to use their heads a little more to get around and find the good rock--even with a decent guide for all the routes in the area. Obviously, we're climbing out there and having fun. While some of the rock scares the crap out of me, including some of the most recent new cracks I've done, there is plenty of fairly sound rock. The best is generally found on faces, which still requires lots of cleaning; the most funky rock seems to be around cracks and the features we normally seek out as trad lines. There are indeed some excellent, fairly sound cracks to climb out there, including 2- to 3-pitch routes right off the water on the west side of Highway Rock. Even though I hope Banks never turns into the same scene we have out at Vantage, I'm trying to be objective and open to you all in reporting about it. All in all, Banks is a fairly cool spot to spend a day or weekend, especially if you have never been there.

quote: Originally posted by telemarker: Just wonder if I'm the only one with the news: Forecast looks like no snow till after Christmas, at least enough to rip on. That means I'll be climbing in Leavenworth till January, which is good. The winters in WA the last couple years has made me a cynic. Not that they've been bad, but they've been so erratic and unpredictable. I think I'll sell by damn boards and move to Phoenix. Dude, just move a 100 miles east. Either that or be willing to drive over here to ski. You all in the Wenatchee area must be more in the rain shadow, as we've been skiing mostly powder on winter weekends the last 2 years. My wide boards have many more miles on them than my narrower or even my "all mountain" boards. Yeah, you have to be ready to follow the local little snow dumps--sometimes Lookout Pass area gets it more, other times Schweitzer or 49 DN or Mt. Spokane or Whitewater or Sherman Pass, etc., and last year was much better than the previous, but no complaints at all from the Spokane-CDA area. --pindude

I don't think I wanna know all the options!

quote: Originally posted by bolt clipper: Dude, go to REI or someplace, and see how easy it is to suck air through the fabric. Dude, for this application, don't suck, BLOW!

quote: Originally posted by Off White: Dude, its the internet, we're all pretty insubstantial. Experience suggests that we're much more polite in the flesh, I didn't see a single eye-gouging hair-pulling fist-swinging tussle at the entire rope up. So true. I walked away earlier today from what I thought was a pretty interesting thread about learning from such an experience and how to get back on the trad horse; coming back this eve and WHOA!, I see all shit broke loose! Glad that Anna and Shredmax can see above it all. I didn't make the L-worth gig, but I fer sure gotta make the next rope-up. Cheers

Serfas Rx Deep Groove Women's--"clinically tested, doctor recommended:"

Story of the original lawsuit . Couldn't find news on the outcome. While I don't think a great many people have valid lawsuits--especially in re. to climbing--this woman certainly did against this loser of a guy. Hope she got at least what she deserved to cover her medical expenses and lost wages.

Stefan: Glad you're okay. Leejams, or anyone else heading up there to get Stefan's gear (and, I would expect, to give back to him): please search for Stefan's sling so he and the rest of us can have the definitive answer as far as what happened to the sling. Heal fast, Stefan, and good luck with your surgery. Cheers, pindude

quote: Originally posted by gapertimmy: i might be mistaken, isn't there quite a bit of climbing memorabilia on display in the Awahne? Who owns that collection? NPS or the concesionaire? Placed there by Corbett more than 5 years ago. That would be part of the same collection that will be owned by the Yosemite Climbing Assoc. My understanding from talking to Corbett then is that this has been a long-standing dream of his, to have a Yosemite climbing museum. The start of it is that collection now in the Awhanee...he told me he really had to work with the NPS and hotel people to just get that placed there. Because there are so many other items in the overall collection, because of the rich history of climbing in the Valley, and because of what climbing means to Valley the world over to both climbers and non-climbers, it's very appropriate to have a dedicated climbing museum vs. having some of the old gear in a small corner of the Awhanee lobby. Mike Corbett, Ken Yager, and others have a great vision for it, and now is really the only time to push it while the NPS is drawing up their plans. So the deadline is now. As posted in Yager's message (thanks Wallstein), e-mail now your support to Yose_Planning@nps.gov for having a dedicated Yosemite Climbing Museum as envisioned by the Yosemite Climber's Association. Vote now, and vote often. --Steve in Spokane

Interesting to read your take on the book, Off White. Two things: Rowell's book is "In the Throne Room of the Mountain Gods," FWIW. Yes, an excellent narrative of a mid-70s expedition, and a good juxtaposition to the Unsoeld Nanda Devi expedition. Certainly if they are a good twin-evil twin duo, Jim is the good and Lou the bad and the ugly. In addition to my comments above about the lack of integrity of the author, it says a lot that he couldn't even spell Roskelley's name correctly throughout the novel. Regarding your comment that Roskelley's book is "strictly (his) side of the story:" While Robert Roper constantly throws in his "insights" and suppositions without any logical reasoning or citations of sources, Roskelley's work is much more of a sound, journalistic effort. Roskelley continually gives others' sides of the story, gives reasons for his opinions, and is at times even critical of himself. I think you'll find it enlightening, especially after reading Roper's piece of garbage. --pindude

quote: Originally posted by Alpine Tom: quote:Originally posted by iain: Yeah, hell of a line they chose though. What a spectacular route, especially going in there pretty much cold as well. A true adventure. Robert Roper just published a sort of bio of Willi Unsoeld called "Fatal Mountaineer" that gives some really interesting insights into that expedition: why they chose such a tough line, the conflicts between amateur and professional climbers, and so on. The sections on French philosophy made my eyes glaze over, tho. "Sort of bio" is right. Competency by the author was lacking, as the book is full of distortions and inaccuracies--more than I have ever seen in ANY mountaineering novel intended to be non-fiction. Myself being a writer, a collector of mountaineering lit, a climber, a Willi Unsoeld fan, knowing about the 1976 Nanda Devi expedition, and knowing a couple of the members on it, I was highly disappointed in this book. I found it very painful to read. Overall the book and subject were very poorly researched (bad preparation and bad writing go hand-in-hand), and many of Roper's "interesting insights" I found to be second-hand bullshit. If you're thinking of reading Roper's Fatal Mountaineer, don't. Read instead Roskelley's first-hand account of the expedition that fills most pages of Roper's novel, Nanda Devi: The Tragic Expedition. And even though it has it's own shortcomings, a much, much better biography of Unsoeld is Lawrence Leamer's Ascent: The Spiritual and Physical Quest of Legendary Mountaineer Willi Unsoeld. --Steve in Spokane [ 10-15-2002, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: pindude ]

quote: Originally posted by Big Wave Dave: I agree with Iain, less is more. The easier it is to see what folks are up to (or spraying about) the better. I think it adds harmony to the CC community and possibly contributes to world peace. quote: Originally posted by Jon: People want a seperate forum for Rock and Alpine. So these are just general talk forums right? This one needs some consideration, as Iain pointed out less can be more and we don't want to make this confusing. What about about alpine rock, and alpine bouldering, among others? It can be hard to draw distinctions, and many posters to this board have a tough enough time of it as it is. Right on BWD and Iain, I agree it best to keep it simple and the climbing types together. After all many (most?) of us like ALL types of climbing, and would rather not want to see people attempt to separate it. quote: Originally posted by Jon: Ice will be seperated into Washington, Canada, and Outside PNW forums. Oregon, Idaho, western Montana, do you consider them part of the PNW? Don't know much about ice in OR, but it exists a bit in north ID, and there is lots in Big Sky country. quote: Originally posted by Jon: Ski forum would be questionable since there are other good ski sites out there, but I think it would be a good place not only to talk about conditions but maybe gear setups with the crowd you know. Rando vs. Tele debates could reside here. And boarders vs. tele and rando, too. Keep up the good work, Jon and Tim, you're getting well-paid for this, right? Cheers, pindude

quote: Originally posted by erden: Do they make generators small enough that they can be carried through the gap down to the King Pins on Sunshine Wall? Erden, short answer: yes. Last year with a group of about 4-5, we carried in a gas generator to Palouse Falls to run a couple angle grinders and erase some graffiti. Two had to carry at a time. We took turns, and carried about the same distance you would to carry through the gap to Sunshine Wall, as we carried past the small climbing area to just above Palouse Falls itself. I will get more info (size, make, model, etc.) from my friend who supplied the generator from his workplace, but may not get an answer til Monday. I'll pm you. Cheers for all you're doing. --Steve in Spokane

quote: Originally posted by Off White: Hey there Pindude, I don't mean to belittle the snowpack out there, and my observation is somewhat limited (I only look when I'm thinking about going) but I kept seeing Steven's get multiple 18" overnight dumps and Schweitzer report 1" in 7 days for the same time period. Maybe you're in the track but sometimes the good stuff gets wrung out of the clouds before it makes it over to you? For what its worth, Mission Ridge mostly seems to get much less snow out of a storm than the areas closer to the crest (but one could argue that its better snow). Does stuff further east, like the Big Mountain in Montana still count as inland NW? There's some great hills out in your neck of the woods, and I wouldn't discourage anyone from checking them out, I'd just say check the conditions and predictions before heading that far away. Schweitzer is just about top of my list for places I'd like to be for a big dump. Now that I re-read my post, I WAS being overly defensive, sorry to come on so strong Off White! The storm track over here on the drier side is real variable after the Cascades wring out their moisture. If the Cascades get 18", it seems typical for the mountains here east of the desert to get anywhere from 6-12". And it can vary quite a bit by specific locale. Several times this past season 49 Deg No near Chewelah, WA got way bigger dumps than Schweitzer to the north and slightly east, and Lookout Pass to the south and east. Lookout, though, usually wins for the earliest and most big dumps, and deepest snowpack, but the vert off the chair is only about 1,000'. Lookout's BC is great if you know where to get away from the snowmobiles. I decided to compare ski hills--hey, this is a good psyche-up in addition to being informative. Looking at the season snowfall totals, this is what Intellicast reports (these have to be cumulative totals, not depth of snow pack): Stevens Pass - 450" Mission Ridge - 170 Schweitzer - 300 49 Degrees No - 240 Mt. Spokane - 100 (uh, that's wrong, should be 200+) Lookout Pass - 400 Big Mtn - 335 I followed Mission Ridge's reports this last year, and I was sorry for all the central WA folks as their snowfalls and totals were WAY less than ours here--I think that generally, being more in the rain shadow like you mention, Mission Ridge can really suffer through its dry periods. But we will have high-pressure inversions here, too, and at least one seems to set up each winter (common more in January) for anywhere from 1 week to up to 3 weeks or so, keeping new snow away but sometimes allowing for spring corn in the sun above an ocean of fog. Big Mtn is about 6-8 hours away from Spokane (4-5 hours from Schweitzer and Sandpoint), and while some ine the Spo-CDA area may claim them to be part of the INW, those in Whitefish and Flathead Valley sure don't--they're in more of a different world including meteorologically. When we get high-pressure in the INW, Big Mtn is far enough east and north they will at times get good snow when we're dry. But most of their moisture is from the same storms that cross over from the Cascades and us here. Overall, they get some great skiing there, as you likely know. Bottom line, you're right on: it's a matter of watching the weather and following the snow. Hope you have lots of happy turns this winter. --Steve

quote: Originally posted by Off White: I've been to Schwitzer once...they aren't really in the Cascade storm track, so you gotta watch the weather. We left Schwitzer and bailed for Bachelor, where we got a major dump that made for a couple of the best days I've ever had at an area... Aren't really in the Cascade storm track? What, do Cascade storms stop in the Cascades? Correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the storms that hit the Cascades come out of the Gulf of Alaska, and trend from the southwest or west, occasionally the northwest as with today's weather: http://www.intellicast.com/Local/USLocalWide.asp?loc=kgeg&seg=LocalWeather&prodgrp=RadarImagery&product=RadarLoop&prodnav=none Sure, most of the energy of these storms are spent on the Cascades, but as they continue east they dump again on the ranges they cross, including and especially Schweitzer's Selkirk range of Idaho. Sometimes the Cascades hold back the drizzle just for the west side, but for most systems, including those that "dump," plenty of moisture is left over for us east-siders and those in the eastern foothills of the Rockies. And the white stuff is generally drier, too. Of course it's variable, and you do have to watch the weather. This past winter our Inland Northwest got some of the best, driest, biggest dumps when the rest of the west was bare--some of our dumps last winter came from the south, and even the east and north. In answer to your question, troubleski, yes it's worth the drive, especially if you're skiing a couple days. Of the 5 INW area resorts, Schweitzer is considered by most to be the only "destination"-type (the other 4 resorts are, in my order of ranking, 49 Deg No, Silver Mtn., Mt. Spokane, Lookout Pass). And of course it's dependent on the weather and where the snow is, like OW finding that dump at Bachelor. Locals here, just like everywhere else, watch the weather and head off to the hill or their favorite BC stashes where we know the snow is fresh. Among my paltry 40+ ski days last winter, I spent 4-5 days passing on the bigger resorts to be at tiny Lookout Pass' single chair and BC for 1'-2' fresh dumps and face shots the others didn't have. And if you're headed east, don't overlook Whitewater and Red Mountain just north of the friendly border, and a little further north, Fernie. Cheers, Steve in Spokane

quote: Originally posted by Steven Kalinowski: I read a report a few years ago in Accidents in North American Mountaineering that sounded similar to Goran's... -Steven Steven, can you tell us which year's ANAM that was? I'm sure many of us would want to read that report. [ 10-03-2002, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: pindude ]