pindude

Just about anything sharp works, including your friendly, orange-handled Fiskars scissors. I go for wide as possible, with rubber tip attachment AND tail-fix. Without tail-fix and with powder over here (inter-mountain), even with good glue, it's not unusual to see others' skins fall off 6x in 2 hours.

Jason, the real beans to spill: I can't read! Got the book right next to me. I passed right by "Spokane" when thumbing thru your guide several times before. Shoulda used the index! I see Indian Canyon is the lone climb listed for Spokane, which it truly is. Glad to see you you at least mention Chilco and Copper in Idaho. Even though your title is "Washington Ice," yes, these 2 Idaho climbs are local for us in NE Washington. Good job on the guide.

Dane, More succinct than I as usual. I wasn't sure if I should spill the beans on tiny Indian Canyon, but no matter. Copper Falls is certainly worth it, including for stretching legs on a drive for anyone heading up to Banff. For those headed up there first time, beware the top finishing short pitch. You can rap off just below this point, from 50 m up. Of course would require 2 ropes to reach bottom if you don't want to do a V-thread. I've top-roped from here, too. I understand the old shaky pins at this stance have been replaced by 2 nice 3/8" bolts. I've had a few memorable experiences getting off Copper: when still thin there is a pool of water at top (when unfrozen or thin) you have to bypass by tooling on vertical frozen dirt left or overhanging, friable rock on right. The vertical, finishing ice below the frozen or unfrozen pool can be thin also: the water runs over rock and behind the ice making for a potentially wobbly, friable sheet of vertical ice at the top, separate from the rock by a couple feet or so. I one time here opened up a big window to the cascading vertical plunge of water running behind the ice, and had to do the exit left on the dirt thing. It would take away from the adventure and add time, but the pool at top can be investigated by walking around to the top from the left (yes, route is a walk-off if you top out). Thanks for the beta on the Wizard collection. I've never climbed there, but would like to check it out. Gib Wall is definitely worth it as a destination. Cheers, Steve

Fred Beckey (renowned climber ) will provide a free presentation this Thursday, Nov. 6, 7:00 pm at the Cheney campus of EWU. Details: You all are invited to see Fred Beckey, free, at EWU's Cheney campus on November 6, Thursday evening. This is a great opportunity to see and hear from one who is very possibly the most prolific mountaineer in North America, if not the world. Fred continues to spend his time putting up first ascents and writing and publishing, and it's not often we are able to see him give a presentation in the Inland Northwest area. "Climbing in North America from Mexico to Alaska" is the title. No tickets needed to get in, no reserved seating, just show up. It will be in the lower-level, downstairs auditorium (not the main auditorium on 2nd floor), room #106, at Showalter Hall at 7:00 pm. To get to Showalter Hall in Cheney from Spokane or Coeur d"Alene, take exit #270 from I-90, and follow the signs to the EWU campus. Showalter Hall is on the south side of the campus, at the intersection of "E" and 6th Streets. Allow about 30 minutes from downtown Spokane to arrive at Showie Hall. More info about Fred Beckey from Perry Higman of EWU: Fred Beckey will speak at Eastern Washington University, Showalter Hall 109, in Cheney on Thursday, November 6 at 7 PM. Admission is free. Fred Beckey is a legend in North American climbing and mountaineering. His climbing career spans six -- going on 7 -- decades. He has made hundreds of significant first ascents -- a record perhaps unparalleled in North American climbing history. It seems wherever one goes climbing on this continent, Washington, Canada, Alaska, Idaho, California, Wyoming and the Southwest, Beckey's name appears. Beckey's meticulous records and notes have become the basis of a number of informative and historical mountain publications, including Mount McKinley: Icy Crown of America and the Challenge of the North Cascades. His famous series, Cascade Alpine Guide, now in a new edition, continues to draw climbers into the mountains. With Beckey's lucid, broadly informational style, it has become the model of the modern outdoor guidebook. Fred Beckey pioneered a nomadic climbing lifestyle based on a enthusiastic love of the mountains, the appreciation of an aesthetic route, and an exceptional talent on rock, snow and ice -- all of which continue to inspire succeeding generations of climbers. Beckey's appearance is sponsored by The Honors Program and EWU's Centers of Excellence. It is supported by EWU Department of Recreation, EWU Department of English, EPIC EWU Outdoor Program, Mountain Gear of Spokane, Mountain Goat Outfitters of Spokane and Recreational Equipment of Spokane.

Yup, this'd be Chilco Falls . Very visible on east side of Hwy 95. Land purchased by Kootenai County Parks Dept a few years ago. I only climbed there once years ago when it was privately owned--asked landowner and got permission. Not big, can't remember size. 30'? Obviously not destination-worthy if you're not a local. I'm laughing, Sobo, because of your reference to Athol (the Coug-Dawg mention is good, too). That obvious reference aside, you gotta be careful with how you pronounce the name around the natives, at least when you're in the area. Hi Gary. Alas, there's not much waterfall ice to climb around Spokane-CDA. Chilco is the closest little thing on public land, along with one other really small drip near Spokane that's so small and well-known among locals that the ice literally gets bashed out within hours of forming. Makes for good mixed climbing, though. PM or email me and I'll give beta. The general rule for ice around low-elevation Spokane-CDA is the same as for Banks Lk: don't wait, get it while you can. I'd expect the ice to be more on the thin side, but Chilco and Banks should be forming up for some good climbing this weekend. Jason and Alex have done a great job on WA ice, and in particular with Banks. Other essential guides for the Spokane-CDA area climber are Big Sky Ice (MT) and Waterfall Ice (BC, AB). The Missions in MT are about 4 hours away, as is Gibraltar Wall north of Canal Flats, BC. Hyalite near Bozeman is good, too. Banff-Jasper is 6-8 hours. If you're really into it, there's still some exploring and FAs to do on some obscure drips in the greater INW, including on private land where you'd have to be tactful with the owners. Mtn Gear guys are a good resource and are climbing much more ice than me nowadays, as I'm more likely to be found on a winter weekend on my boards. Cheers, Steve Reynolds

Dryad, I'm sure NCMG are excellent, but you should also check out Nils Larsen's clinics, which I can't say enough good about. You'd have to drive over here to the east side. His annual Beyond the Groomed workshop, over Prez Day weekend, is at Whitewater out of Nelson, BC. I know a few cc.comers have done this one. It would give you a chance to get in our somewhat lighter snow (most of the time), check out the great rockin little resort of WH2O, and the even more rockin town of Nelson. Nils assembles an all-star cast of instructors for his clinics, which often includes Ray Thomas of NCMG, Leighton White of Bachy, and others including _____? (can't remember the name of the gal who's an excellent instructor and does an annual summer tele clinic up at Hood--sorry, rbw--somebody help me). I know Nils also does a lot of special one-day lessons throughout the country, and if you email him he responds pretty quickly even though he's often traveling. Not sure where you are at in terms of ability, but for Nils' stuff, you would want to be proficient enough that you can at least link turns most of the way down the hill. His students cover a range, usually from "advanced beginners" to truly advanced skiers. I would be leery about being strong enough to handle 6 days in a row of instruction if I wasn't in shape or especially if I was a rank beginner. A one-day lesson or weekend workshop will give you a chance to work on your own on plenty of stuff you will pick up in 1-2 days. Whatever you choose, get your skiing time in with max turns on the snow and you'll get strong and improve regardless. But a good instructor will have you improve beyond that by leaps and bounds, literally. Good luck and happy turns.

All good advice here. I would second to get what fits the best. I researched and bought mine 2 seasons ago. The first helmet I bought I took home and wore around house to check its comfort (questioning looks and comments from wife and neighbors made it worth it ), and I had a headache after 30 minutes. After I took it back and tried on in all 5-6 different manufacturers', I found that Boeri were the only helmets that really fit my noggin. It helps that they have a wide range of sizes, plus with their helmet I could fine-tune the fit by pressing out the inner foam where needed. Their Axis Rage has the removable ear liner for warmer days. Even though it retails for $140, I was able to get it at a local Coeur d'Alene shop for closer to $100. Last year with a slight style change, Gart's was selling the older model--in matte black color only--for around $50. Good luck.

OK, back to the original question. Bug, I don't think it was adequately answered in the digression of this thread. The person selling that M1 may not like my opinion, but personally, I would be paying $150 for it only if it was in like new/excellent condition. If it’s been used and in good to very good condition, I would want to pay around $100. I figure used goods are worth generally 30-70% of their original retail value, depending on condition. In the M1’s case, it had its problems and is now an obsolete unit, last manufactured no later than 1999. However, it is still a good, functional unit I would use myself or have a partner use in the BC, provided it was tested and practiced with. And this is outside any discussion of “crystals” and range. The Ortovox M1 was manufactured and originally introduced for the 1998-99 season, and was quickly made obsolete when the upgraded M2 version was made available the following year. I noticed a couple shops still selling the M1 at discounted prices even during winter 2000-01, likely as excess inventory. I’ve seen only a handful of the M1s used on the snow (not more than 8-10), and two of them had display problems such that they needed to be sent back to the factory for warranty repair. Bug, you probably already know this, but ask the seller why he's selling, and it's probably because he’s upgrading to a better unit himself. There may be other reasons as well. M2 differs from the M1 in re. to the following spec's (From here --note the display issues with the M1): - upgraded processor, which eliminated many of the M1 display problems, and operates at 90 vs. 50 cycles per minute - increased range, 80m vs. 40m Beck and others, word up. Both the M1 and M2 are single -antenna analog units, only their displays are digital thanks to their processors ( source ). In comparison: - Arva 9000 is like the M1 and M2 as a single-antenna analog unit with digital display - Ortovox F1 is a single-antenna analog-only unit (older technology) - Tracker DTS is a dual-antenna digital-only unit (newer technology than the Orotovox Ms and Arva 9000) - Barryvox and Orto X1 units are dual-antenna, dual digital-analog units (latest technology) The M1 and M2 are designed for you to search using the induction-line method, but if one has display problems (not caused by warranty issues), the searcher needs to first slow down and then also possibly use the tangent-line search method which I think is somewhat difficult with these units. With the M1/M2, I’ve noticed as the first-cited article mentions that the distance is often not accurate due to the orientation of the sending and receiving units, and the orientation can be such that it’s very difficult to follow the flux line. Ah, Beck. I don’t believe Snoboy is the spinner on this thread; rather, he has been keeping you in check. You’re not a tool for the transceiver industry, are you? I don’t believe transceivers degrade such that any used unit is not worth buying like you say. Transceivers are fairly bombproof, simple electronic units that do last years without significant degradation, and certainly any unit tested to be functional is worth it to be bought used. I've recently used 15-year-old Ramer units in practice. and even have practiced in the last couple years with the old Skadis dating back to at the least the 1970s. Honestly, I really don’t know anything about “crystals” (other than I built a crystal-diode radio when I was about 10, just like every other baby-boomer kid), so am interested to hear what you guys come up with, with solid facts and evidence. On a practical level, transceivers generally have 5-year warranties from their manufacturers, and they of course last much longer than that. My F1 is still going strong 8 years from the time I bought it, without what I noticed before, in all my practicing and checks, to be a significant decrease in range or performance (but I’ll check now!). I can say the same for virtually all the other F1s most of my buddies have, many of which are about as old. Perhaps there are 1-2 F1 units I’ve seen with noticeably decreased range, so I will be keying on this through the winter. I would expect transceivers to degrade over time. I think the questions are how much degradation over what period of time, for each particular type of unit. At any rate, I’ll be checking my older F1’s range vs. the newer ones as soon as I get my hands on one, which will be soon. OK, enough. Good luck bartering Bug, and cheers, everybody! --Steve Reynolds

60%, hmm. EXACTLY how did you determine this?

Now that you mention it, one of the few reasons I bought a second transceiver was to get a "cheaper" buddy of mine back out into the BC freshies, but it also took--like Figger 8 mentions--influence on my part to positively open up his awareness and to practice with it. Dustin, good luck.

Ditto. It's a bomber, heavy-duty 3-layer for H-D weather. Also have had mine 4 years--best waterproof/breathable winter parka I've had. When it's comin down hard, I feel like I'm protected in body armor. Heavy enough that I usually have only one thin layer underneath even when skiing off the chairs. Have had some of my best powder days, with snow falling at up to 1" per hour, with no concern about having to get out of the elements. And in the rain, I'll also be one of the last ones off the hill in this jacket. Replenished the DWR 1x, will probably do again this season.

I never thought nor was communicating a potential polarized sunglass issue was a reason not to buy, I was merely reporting info in response to your question. Dink LCD screen on Barryvox is also no problem: I find it plainly easy to see/read, even with my worsening (middle-aged) eyesight. Personally I like carrying the smaller Barryvox unit as opposed to the larger Tracker. Overall, I think one can't go wrong with either the Barryvox or the Tracker. For me, main difference is range, although some would discount the importance of range in an avy search (more important is visual sighting, knowing where to start search, then how well the unit works once it does pick up a signal, both of which I find the Tracker and Barryvox to do very well). Iain, what did you find so annoying about the Barryvox, other than perhaps the analog-digital transition you mentioned before (or specifically what is it about the transition)? I can use the info when I work with others this winter.

And if I didn't ski in the BC every time the forecast was "considerable" at least in some areas, aspects, and elevations, I'd have very few ski days. Number one is education and avoidance obviously, but a transceiver = cheap insurance, even at $300. The stats do warrant it. Carl, your buddy must have spent some $ already on gear and clothes to even consider the BC. I myself won't consider skiing or boarding with someone in the BC unless they have beacon-shovel-probe, are motivated and curious to want to continually learn about the snowpack and avy danger, and are prepared to do what they can if it does happen.

Just found this thread. I second what CMan says--Barryvox. Iain, have you practiced with it? Polarized glasses, no problem. Got used to the Barryvox digi/analog transition right away. Range is 2x that of Tracker, and is equal or better than Orto M2. Have practiced in field with most units currently on market, exception is Pieps Opti. My F1 is an old friend (after the original Ramer, and Arva analog which was Arva 4000 I think). Can usually tangent-line search with F1 as fast as anyone with a digital, including the Tracker. The Tracker was what I originally wanted to digital-upgrade to, but was disappointed with its range. It's less than half of my trusty F1. The Barryvox, however, is digital *with* good range (although not quite my F1 range, still almost 2x as much as Tracker). So bought the Barryvox last year, and am very happy with it. Good carry system, light, about as easy to use I think as the Tracker. Unlike Tracker, Barryvox digital system can be overriden, but haven't felt the need to use this feature other than once in practice. Similar to Figger 8, when headed out to the BC, I keep the F1, and let my partner practice and wear the Barryvox since its easier to use for the relative neophyte, like the Tracker. And with 2 units, me or buds can always practice. Can't remember what the avy transceiver shock spec's are, but even if 1 meter on concrete there's some extra engineering to do. Yes, avy transceiver market is small, and that is definitely one reason for price. My understanding is that price is artificially low, that manufacturers have less margin into avy transceivers than normal. Maybe Mammut Rep can chime in. I believe we see the $299 price for digitals because the small market is so competitive...for one unit to be sold for more than that US $299 threshold figure for digitals, then that company would be losing market share and potential profits, such as they are for this item. Just speculation, but if it was so easy to produce, and the profit incentive was there, BD--given their commitment to backcountry skiing--would be there in a flash. Timmy, In Canada last winter with exchange rate the Barryvox and Trackers were 240-250 US$ or less, but with difference in exchange you're now looking at closer to $280-300 for digital units unless you find a deal. Canada stores I saw the Barryox last year included Snowpack in Nelson and Mountain Magic in Banff. I know Kootenay Experience of Nelson rents out from a fleet of Trackers and at end of season last year (April) sold them pretty quickly for 299 Can$ (reg $399). As said before, bottom line on any transceiver unit you use: practice, practice, practice.

Not much printed info yet, other than the Bland guide. Article in an older Climbing mag by David Whitelaw gave beta on 30 or so routes, many of which were his FAs and boat-accessible only. Soon (6-12 months?), there will be a more comprehensive guide for the Banks Lake area, where most of the routes are walk-ups, some are rap-downs, and some are boat-only. Nonsense, X, you falsely extrapolated from the crap printed in Bland's guide. "The guy that put up a lot of those routes" is a very fair and honorable person: he declined to give the route info to merely Bland. I would have done the same thing, especially after Bland took the FA on a red-tagged* Banks Lk project climb of "that guy" and his son, and Bland also had the audacity to write the name of the "his creation" in Sharpie marker at the base of the route. Marty has shown himself in the past to be a little short on tact, as evidenced not only by this and other behaviors, but also the bullshit he wrote in his guide about Larry Peterman in the Minnehaha section, and Rick LaBelle in the Banks Lake section. For the perceptive, the info is there for the asking. Do a search on Banks Lake on this website and see what you come up with. Banks has a lot of routes, although I don't think it'll ever become a Frenchman Coulee, thankfully, due mostly to location. You'll have a chance when the new guide does come out, but meanwhile, use the Bland guide, and better yet, explore, look around, and you'll find lots of good moderate to harder stuff, both bolted and trad. If that's not good enough, email me and I'll be glad to hook you up with Rick if you're sincere. Paul, I don't get there often enough to remember the names of routes or remember good beta, sorry. Some of my fav climbs are on the west and lake side of Highway Rock (it's not called "Roadside Rock," as in the Bland guide). Almost all the climbs on the west side of Highway Rock are accessible by hiking around--several great, mostly trad routes start right at the waterline. On a couple of the starts over there, I wondered if I was going to get wet. You can also rap in from the top. If exploring some of those newer lines out there on the west side, it's at least 2 or 3 raps to the waterline. Beware of poison ivy, rattlesnakes, and loose rock. Off White, I wrote the above before reading your post. Now that I see your beta, thanks. Some of Whitelaw's routes are indeed to the NW of Highway Rock, although there has not been much action there, that I know of, since Whitelaw--mainly because that area requires a boat most of the time. Most of the development has been on Highway Rock (southeast, south, and west sides), in Northrup Canyon, and a few other routes in a smattering of places on the north end of the lake. On the broad, west side of Highway Rock, there are several faces, with many routes starting near or even somewhat above the waterline. Best way to get there from the parking turnout is to walk around the south side, where you'll also see several good routes. In Northrup Canyon, after you pull in on the road near the picnic table and trailer ramp, the rock on the left (west) is Gibraltar Rock, and the rock on the right (east) is Picnic Table Rock. Good routes on both: harder ones on Gib, more moderate ones (with several new lines) on Picnic Table Rock. --Steve Reynolds * For those that don't know, a "red-tagged" project is a route someone is working on for a First Ascent. Red (or often now other colors) webbing tied at the first or second bolt (for a bolted route) indicates a project climb. If you would like a crack at the FA of some project you see somebody working, custom and tact dictates you first ask the person working on the project, especially if that person put the vision, work and bucks into originally establishing that bolted (or crack/trad), cleaned line. And, while it may be condoned in some climbing areas, particularly in France, writing the name of your route in Sharpie marker at the base is NOT acceptable at Banks or anywhere else in the Northwest.

There's so many! If I had to pick just one, it would probably be: Here's to you, Mugs Stump

Another, perhaps better, thread (same question, cross-posted to this forum) Laclede Rocks are southwest of Sandpoint, and precisely because they are mostly south-facing, can be hotter than much climbing closer to and around Spokane. How much more does a rack weigh? For sport, Bland's INW Rock Climbs is the book to have, but disregard his BS description of Minnehaha Rocks. He's correct at least in the sense that Minne's climbs are not sport routes, but Minne does have some excellent, abundant bouldering if you're into not flying with a rack. For sport closest to Spokane, Deep Creek is your best bet. Deep Creek is fractured basalt, but good nonetheless. Metaline Falls' limestone also has good sport climbs, but will be hotter since much of it is south-facing. For higher altitude climbing, the granite of Chimney Rock in Idaho's Selkirks is a place to be, but it's all trad and generally requires a full day. Trail in is still very snow-covered (elevation is above 6,000'). There's now a new approach road from east side of Priest Lake, so if you're going, email or PM me and I'll give the new approach road beta. What's your definition of "hot?" Things are fairly cool now (at least temp's are near average), and the forecast calls for temps to not rise much higher, so all the climbing is good. Have fun, Matt, and enjoy your stay around Spokane.

ibarash, Ditto what Marylou, Gary, and Fence Sitter said. The internet can be a great tool, but I'm tired of every person who airs their personal customer service woes to the world. Sometimes it can be legit, and I can understand your frustration and anger, ibarash, but calling Tom a liar and telling him he should fire his Seattle seamster/seamstress is going too far. I'm sure there are many successful orders and happy customers for Nunatak, or they wouldn't be in business, and as a little business, airing this the way you have can hurt much more the little guy, as opposed to a bigger company. At least Tom had the guts to apologize and admit he screwed up, and you do have a few days to get another sleeping bag prior to your trip. Most importantly, it would only be fair if you told Tom you aired this on cc.com, or any other discussion board you might have posted your gripe, and he has a chance to respond to the same audience(s). So, ibarash, have you told Tom you posted here, and did you post this anywhere else?

El Capitan...yes, filmed by Glen Denny in 1969 or prior, but credit must also be given to Fred Padula who did the editing and released the final version in 1978. at each of Cliffhanger, K2, Vertical Limit, pissing off others around us who weren't laughing at the same lines. I have to admit I paid $$ to watch all 3 of those in the theatre. At least the scenery wasn't too bad. Stallone, prior to Cliffhanger's release, said he was going to make a climbing movie "true to climbers." For the movie K2, I can't forget when two groups of climbers were hanging out on their portaledges on the dry, warm North Face of Fairview Dome with their haul bags and all their wall gear...suddenly, they say they've entered the "snow zone": the haul bags, ledges, and massive wall gear are gone, and they're chugging up a snow slope (on Waddington?) sporting plastic boots, axes and other snow/ice gear, full Gore-tex outifits, and big alpine packs! FWIW, I've seriously been asked if I've ever used nitroglycerin in the mountains, and many times, if I have a "bolt gun."

Just found the same question posted in the Newbies forum. Dane, who knows Minne and Spokane climbing at least as well as I (Dane, ya gotta see Minne now without all the paint! ) answered it more succinctly than I: "Dishman Rocks, Cliffs of Sharron, LaClede near Sandpoint, ID, and Chimney Rock and the Selkirks out of Sandpoint can give you some of the best short crag climbing in WA State. "Vantage has some decent climbing but nothing in comparison to the variety of what is closer to Spokane. "While Chimney Rock is a decent walk and a fair drive, with no top ropes, you would be hard pressed to find better alpine granite. "Takes very little to hang a top rope @ Dishman or Minni. A few dbl size slings will easy do it. Most have multiple bolt anchors on the top which you and your dog can easy walk to at either area. Both areas are more than worth the effort. Try Minni first as the routes are generally easier and more varied. Good stuff for beginners can easily be set up. If that gets boring drive 15 minutes across the valley and try Dishman. "

Ha! Fun read. I like the trolls. Timmy, you sure do have some serious issues from your childhood you need to deal with! Thanks for mentioning Spokaloo being a scary place, because we sure don't want any more whacked-out west-siders moving over here, let alone climbing. Seriously, in years past I think some Spokanites have had an inferiority complex when comparing our town to Seattle, but thankfully that's changed for the few I knew it was an issue for, including maybe someone with the Spokesman-Review (superiority shown 1x/mo?, hmm). While lot of us don’t mind visiting the west side too often, most of us are glad to be on the dry side. Whatever, you can make the most of where you live, and I realized upon moving to Spokane from Seattle that this town has at least as much to offer as Seattle albeit in different ways, especially for a climber or anyone who likes the outdoors. Hey west-siders, you‘re welcome to climb here whenever you want—I and others are glad to show you around, hang from some problems, and bend elbows over beers. Bottom line, NewToWA, your best bet for TR’ing beginners (which I assume your cousins are) is first Minnehaha Rocks (10’ from downtown Spokane), and second Post Falls/Q'emlin Park (30’ away). Most climbs don’t need long webbing, but bring a couple 25-footers for those non-90-degree, stepped edges that exist at many crags and for some routes at Minne, like Main Crack or Diagonal. To give the climbing scoop on Spokane: While the great Cascades may be in the Sound's backyard, Spokane has that range to choose from and much more. Yeah, we do have to drive a little farther for weekend alpine trips including to the Cascades, but it's all worth it: we’re closer to ice in SE BC and Banff/Jasper/Yoho, north Idaho, West Montana and Hyalite-Bozeman; alpine climbs throughout the Canadian Rockies from the Icefields Parkway to the Bugs and interior ranges of BC, further south from the North Idaho Selkirks (stellar granite on 3-pitch Chimney Rock 4 hours away, plus a few FAs waiting to be done) to big peaks throughout Idaho and Western Montana on down to Wyoming and the Tetons; cragging trips to Banks Lk (1.5 hrs), Skaha, Vantage, Koocanusa, Blodgett Canyon, much more that is not in guidebooks, from granite to basalt to limestone. Smith is about 7 hrs away normally, and I've done the Valley in 13. In winter, skiing's world-class if you know where to go (especially in the backcountry), and the snow's lighter than in the Cascades. I only got out about 20x this past year, but at least 12 of those days were good powder days, with some at least 2-feet deep. Oh yeah, the original question was about local cragging. Sure glad we have more than an artificial rock at one of the local universities and an exit or two off the freeway... Minnehaha Rocks (10' from downtown) is very much the urban crag, and it does have its city-oriented problems, but is the place if you're in town and you're looking to set up some TR-climbs or want to get some good bouldering in. Problems: Loud (right across Spokane River from Felts Airfield and the local police shooting range), sometimes stinky (rendering plant, which is slated to eventually go away), broken glass which still shows up (use a rope tarp and don't go barefoot, but glass is continually being cleaned up). Positives: We did massive cleanup there over the past 2 summer seasons, picking up garbage and blasting off all the graffiti. Minne has more than 250 routes from boulders to 80' climbs, from 5.0 to 5.13 on sound, tip-friendly granite. The Verm calls the bouldering the best in the state. This little crag is exactly what the Seattle area is missing. And if you like to mountain bike, Beacon Hill, just above the rocks of Minne, has lots of great riding from fairly easy to hard-core technical with steep drops (lots of awesome mtn biking around Spokane, as I know there is around the Sound). Other noteworthy crags are Dishman Rocks (15' from downtown) which has good granite south on the other side of the river from Minne, and is for intermediate-to-advanced climbers as almost all routes are in the 5.10 to 5.13 range. Some dirtier granite but in more of an alpine setting are the Rocks of Sharon behind Krell Hill (aka Tower Mountain, 30' drive + a 15’ hike). Other cragging is on Deep Creek's basalt (20'), Post Falls, Idaho granite (30' from Spokane), Tum Tum's granite (30'), Metaline Falls’ (90') and Marcus’ and China Bend’s (2 hrs) limestone, Banks Lake’s chossy granite (90+ '), and LaClede, Idaho’s granite, (90'). A few others, too, which are either just being developed or are too small to mention, including several in town. Best overall guide for the area is Bland's [/i] INW Rockclimbs[/i], but if you're going to climb at Minne buy for $3 the old Loomis guide—[/i]Guide to Rockclimbing in the Spokane area[/i]—at Mountain Gear for ease of finding routes and to know the history. Best shops are Mountain Gear (the big locally-owned shop)and Mountain Goat Outfitters (the little locally-owned shop), and there's a good REI. The local gym is excellent: Wild Walls located downtown. Bottom line, if you’re a climber, Spokane --Steve Reynolds

In case you missed it: NPR audio: Trade Shows May Boycott Utah over Wilderness Issue

troll a.k.a. trolling (def.): The act of posting a message in a newsgroup that is obviously exaggerating something on a particular topic, hoping to trick a newbie into posting a follow-up article that points out the mistake. See Also: flame bait , lurk. No, lummox, this is not a troll--no tricks or exaggerations, and posted for actual discussion. After all, this is a discussion board. I was expecting as much, but was hoping for at least some substantive discussion. No worries, I don't take this stuff personally. --pindude

Interesting proposal--a great idea IMHO--by Karl Baba, as posted on rc.com: Source The opinions of the first ascent party have always been given serious consideration by the climbing community. When it comes to adding bolted anchors or additional protection bolts to routes, we ask the first ascent party's opinion. Some first ascents were put up in a bold style and were intended to stay that way. Other first ascents were put up in a bold style because the party ran out of time or bolts. Some first ascensionists have changed their outlook on protection with the advent of sport climbing or because of family responsibilities, and others feel the same way that they did when they put up the route. One problem we have as a climbing community is that we really don’t know what the feelings of many first ascensionists are. We tend to assume they all sit around wearing wool underwear with a sense of indigence that people are putting up well protected routes in modern times. Maybe yes, maybe no. I have talked to a number of first ascenders who say that they intend to go back to some of their dangerous routes and add anchors or protection bolts so more people could enjoy the routes. On the other hand, I’m sure just many first ascenders would like their routes left alone. They want their bold statement to stand untouched. I just saw the movie about Yosemite Climbing history called Vertical Frontier. It’s a good history. It was shocking to see how many of the pioneers of our sport died in the past few years. It’s important to record the views of those who forged our climbing heritage before they pass from the scene. I have a proposal that I’m putting out there in case somebody has the inspiration, energy, and webspace to take action on it. It is to offer climbers who put up new routes a place to register their stories, preferences and intentions regarding their creations. Volunteers could contact veteran first ascenders from the past and record their views for the consideration of future climbing communities. The first ascenders themselves could post information about their creations. They could ask that their routes remain unchanged. They could relate how the route came about. They could give their view of local ethics. They could stipulate that they think adding anchors or bolts in certain places would be appropriate. They could advocate retrobolting by anyone, or established locals, or no one. They could state an intention to work on the route themselves. They could put the evolution of their route into the hands of future climbers based on local consensus. We don't know how climbing will change in the next 300 years, but those future generations won't understand each area's historical ethics and culture unless we them tell. Harding would have something different to say than Robbins. Bachar might have a different view than Kauk. Rockclimbing.com has an extensive worldwide route database that can be edited and expanded by users. A workable registry can be worked into the database with the support of the owners of Rockclimbing.com I am not proposing a tool to promote retrobolting or to ensure routes remain unchanged. I am merely offering a tool to promote communication and self regulation by the climbing community. It’s better for everyone if we can minimize bolt wars and stress among each other. There should still be climbers 300 years from now enjoying the routes that were put up in the past 60 years. They won’t know what the first ascenders intended for those routes unless we ask. If the popularity of climbing sustains, the pressure to change routes will increase. Let’s do something to help those future generations of climbers come to agreement. I intend to post this on a number of internet forums but am posting it here first to await feedback since I cited rockclimbing.com as a place where a first ascender registry might be located. Wouldn't want to make assumptions. Feedback? Conerns? Support? Peace Karl Baba Edit: Rockclimbing.com is now behind us. I'm posting this info gradually on other forums to create a period of public comment. This is a community project, not "my baby" I repeat, this is not a dating service for retrobolters but a record of individual histories and view that come together to make our collective climbing awareness. The future will undoubtedly bring change though, and consideration of future route change/protection should be a part of the dialog. Second Edit: After reading many comments during this "Public Comment Period" it is obvious that concerns about retrobolting are foremost in people's minds, and the advantages of knowing the FA party's opinion about the any potential route changes in the future are not particularly valued. Folks seem to want the FA party's take on history and the local area, and some interesting stories about their routes. Personally, it seems to me like parents telling the school, please don't give our teenage daughter any sex education! It will just make her want to go get drilled! It is true, though, that information has consequences. Obscure Routes that get "supertopoed" skyrocket in popularlity and big wall routes that get "ASCA'ed" are morelikely to become trade routes. But this isn't about me so... I think it would be wise to get first ascender's general comments under the listing of their name, and anecdotes about their specific routes can go under the "FA notes" for each route if they care to share stories. No enouragement should be given to comment on bolting issues particular to the route and hopefully each general area can have a link to a local ethics summary, reprinted with permission if possible, from the local guidebook or paraphrased by a local. No blanket "will or intent about my routes in general" should be asked for either. I wouldn't prohibit talk of bolting or chopping cause I think free speech is critical, but the introduction to the registry can shape how it is used. If we don't make it about bolting, it won't tend to be. I think the concerns expressed over retrobolting issues should be respected. The issues and problems that arise from bolting issues still be with us though. Perhaps a better understanding of the past will help. Even if it doesn't, we will have a better history than just the polished accounts of the sponsored folks detailing their cutting edge climbs. Peace Karl Last edited by karlbaba on Sun Jun 01, 2003 5:42 pm; edited 2 times in total

could you explain why the fall factor was tremendous? Seems there was a lot of rope out already. Iain, Poor choice of words on my part. It would be better to say impact force--not fall factor--was tremendous. On a practical level, Gator during his drop tests with 100 kilos duplicated the breaking of an open biner on a #2 Camalot at the same location it was believed Göran placed his. Quick Fall Factor estimate on the #2 Camalot was about 25' length of fall / 55' of rope out = 0.45, not insignificant. I don't know how to calculate impact force, so will leave it to you guys. Peter Puget in a related thread linked to this PMI article at the ASCA website, What heavy climbers need to know. There's a table near the bottom showing "Relationship between Impact Forces, Fall Factors, and Masses," but it shows higher Fall Factors that are closer to one or above. Maybe someone can extrapolate or calculate on their own... --Steve Reynolds