Mtguide

Here's some old school stuff that might be really fun to build: www.inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/gear/sleds

"You know that the world is off tilt, when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest basketball player is Chinese, and Germany doesn't want to go to war." -Charles Barkley

It would be interesting to see a plot of how many of these were first ascents by Fred Beckey.

Two words: "Mission Accomplished".

Hi, Bigtree, thanks for your corrrections; you are absolutely right. I was reading last night about Hermann Buhl and Lionel Terray and was just logging on this morning to correct my entries, but see you beat me to it. Yeah, I think I was thinking of Louis Lachenal, I remember now hearing about it years ago on the news. Regarding Buhl, one of the saddest things about his death was that it occurred within just a few weeks after the first ascent of Broad peak with Kurt Diemberger and two others, and only three years after his epic solo first ascent of the Rakhiot route on Nanaga Parbat. He was really at the height of his career, just 32 years old. My source on Buhl was his autobiography "Nanga Parbat Pilgrimage: The Lonely challenge" pub. by The Mountaineers. And since this thread is on the topic of someone new to climbing wanting to get started, I think this would be an excellent read, not so much for technical or nuts and bolts instruction, but as an inspirational and instructive perspective on finding the right balance between youthful fiery enthusiasm and coolheaded, clear-eyed judgement and prudence. To get there, you have to have experience,but, as Buhl and countless others have found out, you have to survive the experience, and it's really interesting following Buhl's progression to that level.

Chuck Norris doesn't buy hurricane insurance; hurricanes buy Chuck Norris insurance.

Actually Lionel Terray died on the approach to a climb in the alps; he was crossing a patch of slick wet rock and gently sloping grass on an exposed trail, slipped and took a bad bounce off the pack he was carrying, and rolled about 6 feet before going over the edge of a 900 foot drop. The weather at the time was perfect,and everyone was in high spirits. Merely a momentary lapse of caution. Another famous hardman, Hermann Buhl, died skiing into a crevasse on, I believe, the Midi Plan glacier on Mt. Blanc. This was also in good weather, and moderate skiing. Locally, a well-known Smith Rock climber,very skilled and experienced, who did a number of first ascents at Smith, died when he tripped coming down the Misery Ridge trail and fell down Red Wall. Many of the worst accidents occur on relatively easy ground and often on the descent, and it's not far from the truth to say that an experienced, seasoned extreme climber on an extreme route, is actually safer than a novice on an easy route. Read Heidi Pesterfield's book,"Traditional Lead Climbing:Surviving the Learning years", and keep in mind as you go, the admonition of Edward Whymper, leader of the first team to summit the Matterhorn: "There have been joys too great to be described in words, and ... griefs upon which I have dared not dwell; and with these in mind I say, climb if you will. But remember that courage and strength are naught without prudence, and a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning, think what may be the end." Never take a single thing for granted, remember that the climb is never over till you're back home. Once we get back to the car, we always say,"Now for the most dangerous part of the climb--driving home." There's also the story of the Chinese tree-climbing master: many centuries ago in ancient China, a young man heard of a legendary tree-climbing master who lived in the far northern mountains. After great difficulty he tracked the old master down, and asked him for instruction. The master said nothing, but motioned him to follow. They climbed further up into the mountains, where they finally arrived at a secret grove of giant pines over 300 feet tall, towering through the windblown mists. At the base of the tallest one, the master silently motioned the young man to begin climbing. As he ascended, he looked down from time to time to ask the teacher if he was doing it right, but each time, the old man said not a word, but simply waved him on to keep going higher. Finally he made it to the top, and the old man broke his silence; "Stay as long as you like, and when ready, come down." After admiring the view for a long breather, the young man started down, and once again paused at times to ask the teacher if he was doing OK, but again the master was silent, merely motioning him to continue down. The young man was puzzled, but kept climbing down, until finally he was only ten feet off the ground, when suddenly the old master raised his hand, with a horrific scowl of rage on his face, and roared "BEEEE CAREFUL!!!!" at the top of his lungs. Reaching the ground safely, the young man collapsed in laughter, and the old master was enjoying himself hugely as well. The young man stayed on and studied with the old master for a number of years, and went on to become a very great and powerful master of deep knowledge and wisdom about many things, as well as the climbing of trees, and a worthy successor to his teacher.

The newest tie-in knot, the Yosemite Bowline, can be found at Climbing magazine's website. There may be some who know it,but it seems most are still using the follow-through figure 8.

Have to admit I've never tried it on skins before, just used it many times on both natural and synthetic fabrics, including upholstery,climbing parkas, ski pants,gaiters, etc. with no adverse effects to the fabric or any interior waterproof/breathable coatings. Mainly I've used it to remove really heavy,sticky wax like klister.Other waxes I've sometimes just left on or even rubbed right into the fabric, since,after all, it is just a climbing parka, etc., it's going to get dirty anyway, and a little wax is just more waterproofing. Not really an option with skins. Since it's just water, there's no problem with solvents potentially degrading nylon based fabrics, or staining. The method is predicated on holding the fabric (or skin in this case), at a steep enough angle to let the water run off very quickly so that the melted wax is carried off the surface. I use a teapot with a narrow pour spout to get just a small area at a time.I do think if you laid the skin down flat and poured boiling water on it, that yes, you'd probably take off a good bit, or most of the adhesive. As far as scraping is concerned, I usually only do that first to get the worst of it off, then use the boiling water.

Once you've scraped as much of the wax off as you can, simply pour boiling water over the area where the wax is, holding the skin at an angle(maybe lay it on a board and tip the skin to one side, not lengthwise) so that the hot water can carry the wax off, and you don't just simply spread the wax further down along the length of the skin. It'll probably take several pours before you get it all off. The idea is not to pour the water on while the skin is laying flat, but angled so the water just melts and carries off the wax on the surface, and not further into the fabric of the skin. Also, immediately after pouring the boiling water on, you might try scraping, it should come off pretty easily while it's still soft. Now, this will probably also take off at least some of the adhesive, so as Tokogirl says you'll have some spot reglueing to do, but by this far along in the season that's usually a good idea anyway. I've used this method to remove wax from clothing, gloves, etc. and it hasn't, in my experience, caused any harm to the fabric.

You're absolutely right, it doesn't really matter where you're from if you have the desire to climb and a way to get to the mountains, the time to pursue and work on it. But, suspicions of larceny aside, you'd sure want to be careful about anyone who'd advertise for guiding on craigslist. Nor would I ever climb on anyone's rental ropes or harnesses. I never even take my own gear for granted, always checking and inspecting, before ,after, and during the climb. There's just too much at stake. So, the original theme of this thread is a good one, I think, "This Is How People Get Hurt Or Dead". Climb Safe, and--- Watch yer topknot.

I clicked on this thread thinking it was about Buildering, climbing ON architecture; there used to be a little clandestine guidebook to the buildings on the UW campus in the late 60's and 70's. I particularly remember the NW buttress of the Suzallo Library. We also did routes on buildings at PLU and UPS in Tacoma, and the pylons under the freeway at the south end of the Roosevelt Way bridge in the U district were not too bad for aid practice. Buildering can be pretty challenging sometimes, mainly because you get a layback, jamcrack or finger crack that's dead vertical, and the same width, surface texture, etc. for the entire height of the structure, sometimes very isolated as a feature with little else around it for supplementary holds, or hard to protect. So, "strenuous and sustained" as one of the route descriptions stated... Usually though pro was pretty simple; we didn't have cams or chocks, but you could often just use slings on modern architectural features like vertical aluminum square tube attached to the building with standoffs (9-story Tinglestad Hall at PLU), or a lot of cracks in masonry would take standard angles or aluminum bongs, same size all the way up, so we might have to pool our gear to get enough stuff to make it all the way. I suppose nowdays with increased security this would be hard to pull off, you'd probably be charged with suspected sabotage or terrorism, instead of just trespassing. Even back then we always had to do it in the middle of the night and be damned quiet about it, driving pins with a muffled hammer (a small chunk of tire tread duct-taped on) and other such secrets of the trade.

This is also how people get arrested. Area code 314 (on his phone #) is the area around St. Louis, Missouri. So when he says he located in the NW maybe he means in NW St Louis? Yeah, wow, lots of glaciated peaks around there to climb. Must be really experienced as a guide-- for catfish, coons and crawdads. Or else he's out here, short of cash and trying to make a buck off some stolen climbing gear. Sometimes a good way to recover stolen stuff is to respond to ads like this and take 'em up on it, string 'em along. Both Craigslist and Ebay have had numerous incidents like this where people have seen their own stolen goods advertised, initiated contact to get an adress or other type of location fix, working with the police. Crooks are SO smart.

Dan, many thanks,that's the best treatise I've ever seen on the use of pitons.

Royal Robbins' two little books "Basic Rockcraft" and "Advanced Rockcraft", each have a short treatise on "pitoncraft", which are useful, as does even the most recent edition of "Mountaineering:Freedom of the Hills". Their section on pitoncraft is really very thorough. Regarding the use of sound to judge the "soundness" of a placement, the pin driven into a good, solid placement will ring kind of like a tuning fork(not that sustained), with a "ding" or "ping",at a higher pitch with each successive blow of the hammer, until it rings at a consistent pitch, or is driven to, or close to, the limit of the eye. Conversely, a poor, insecure placement, will render only a dull, toneless, "thock" or "whock" or "clack", no ringing at all. An ideal placement will take only a few strikes to get to that high-pitched ringing point, will provide bomber holding strength, yet will be relatively easy too remove by first striking the pin as far as it will go one way, then hammering it back the other way till it's easily pulled out with the fingers. Notice that I said "ideal"; that's not usually what you're gonna get, but that's the standard to go by in judging your placements, both for strength AND ease of removal, which = safety + speed. Be careful not to "overdrive" pitons, especially in bottoming cracks. Chrome moly steel is amazingly tough, but it is possible to curl the ends over by bashing them into cracks too shallow for the length of the pin,and driving a pin all the way to the eye when it's already perfectly good enough 1/4" shy of that, can simply make for a lot of unnecessary work trying to get the pin out, and also winds up trashing the rock surrounding the crack. This is how some of the most famous aid lines and free cracks in Yosemite became nothing more than a vertical row of huge, ugly pin scars which any dumbnuts monkey with fists could climb.This is where using a little common sense about pin selection for length and thickness comes in handy. More on that later. For stubborn pins,the current version of the Chouinard Yosemite Hammer features a carabiner hole in the blunt pick, to which you can clip a sling or swaged cable leash about 24' to 30" long, with the other end clipped into the pin. You then simply hammer outward into thin air, directly away from the pin, using your strength and the weight of the hammer to jerk the pin right out of the crack. Be sure to loosen up the pin as best you can before you do this; be sure that you're in a good, secure stance so as not hurl yourself off into space; and be careful to keep your head out of the way so you don't get a "Diamond C" branded on the back of your skull or across the side of your nose, or wind up with a new earring. Finally, except for the smallest angles, thin Lost Arrows, maybe a Lost Arrow spoon,(but a short knifeblade or Bugaboo is just about the same thing),rurps(Realized Ultimate Reality Piton), knifeblades and Bugaboos, pitons really have been completely superceded by the vast variety and range of cams, chocks, hexes,nuts,tubes, tricams, wires and small wires, stoppers, hooks and wedges out there. I can't think that anyone truly has a need anymore for a standard 3/4" or 1" angle on up, bongs, etc., or for any of the thicker or "Long Dong" Lost Arrows, at least for warm weather climbing. (For winter or early mixed alpine with verglas in the cracks, pins, especially angles, come in for lots of use. Cams and other passive pro don't hold too well on ice.) Besides, that shit is HEAVY. The only thing I will say is that there are times when I'd far rather rap off of a well placed knifeblade or Bugaboo, than I would from something like one or two small wires.It would all depend on the placement, whether vertical or horizontal to the direction of fall, the quality of the rock, etc. Nonetheless, pins ARE wedge-shaped, and they CAN pull out, whereas the great leap in thought of TURNING THAT WEDGE AROUND is what ushered in the whole new era of advanced "clean" protection in climbing. But no one has come up with a wire that can fit into a knifeblade crack and provide good pro, just yet. I wouldn't head up any little-known wilderness big wall without a good selection of knifeblades and Bugaboos.

Back in the 70's MAD Magazine did a hilarious satire on Eddie Bauer, centering around what they (MAD) called the parka and sleeping bag filling of "goose liver down". Featured was a "goose liver down" stuffed parka 10" thick, with about 327 pockets, pockets on top of pockets,and a 100 lb. goose liver down-stuffed sleeping bag (Keeping you toasty down to 714 below zero!!). There was also a goose liver down-stuffed canoe (with 144 pockets, of course),an arctic goose liver down-stuffed compass, and a goose liver down-stuffed butt-warmer for going to the latrine(with special searchlight for midnite latrine runs), all with multiple pockets, drawstrings, and made of "ballistic-grade bulletproof,airtight, watertight,radiation-proof and fireproof camoflage nylon." All of this crap was so heavy that by the time the enthusiastic outdoorsman had lugged it home, he was too exhausted to go anywhere and spent the weekend at home on the couch with a beer watching football on TV.

Sorry, I have to disagree; first of all, while there is nothing wrong with geeks, or being one, not all climbers are geeks.Obsessive? Maybe, but that may be the price of safety and survival, too. But there is a very definite criteria of style throughout the various aspects of climbing, and it's of very long standing, going back to the earliest days of alpinism. Some of the old pictures of Swiss and Bavarian guides in the Aiguilles, wearing rope-soled shoes and felt hats, climbing with absolutely beautiful, classic form and elegant grace on routes that were extremely bold and serious,extreme exposure, runouts of 70 or 80 feet with hemp ropes tied around the waist, ice ax carried through the pack straps, are prime examples. Look at the books by the famous French alpinist and guide Gaston Rebuffat,"On Snow and Rock", "Between Heaven and Earth, read "Gervasutti's Climbs", flip through back issues of the American Alpine Journal, look at photos of the legendary early big wall pioneers of yosemite such as Royal Robbins, Chuck Pratt,Yvon Choiunard, Bridwell, I could go on and on, if you want to see real style, elegance and grace under extreme conditions and pressure.If you're lucky enough to ever get to watch Tim Olson, the author of Portland Rock Climbs, at work on rock or ice, you'll be treated to a virtual clinic in beautiful,elegant climbing of perfect balance and unmistakeable and highly individual style. Videos of Lynn Hill, Alex Lowe, John Bachar, Hans Florine,Peter Croft and Ron Kauk offer more of the same. There's a great old photo in Rebuffat's book "On Snow and Rock",of him standing with a group of famous guides and climbers in front of a stone hut in the alps, people such as Herman Buhl, Ricardo Cassin, etc. If that's not a stylish crew with their beautiful ski sweaters, knickers, knee socks, berets and meerschaum pipes, I don't know what is. These guys were lionized in European society and the international climbing community, and they looked the part, as well as being able to really climb like lions. Style is everywhere in climbing, in everything, from the manner of the actual climbing itself, to the evolution of the placement of protection, not to mention a huge clothing and equipment industry which is still motivated by a very healthy amount of "form follows function", and a constant effort to meld the greatest versatility and function with fashion. Style is also a major part of the whole approach to way climbs are planned and carried out, such as the evolution of Alaskan and Himalayan climbing from siege climbing by large expeditions to small teams going light and fast, or the freeing of routes that were formerly aid, or onsighting. Pick up a Lost Arrow or a Camalot and think about the combination of engineering and design, art and science, that it took to create something so beautifully and perfectly functional, rugged, and that enables us to, for a short time, rise above the pavement, the rat race and urban sprawl,and as the famous French alpinist Lionel Terray said, "to really become men", to do something magical and extraordinary. I'd go so far as to say that to climb IS style,of a very high order, because, however, inelegantly or awkwardly it might be done, it is nonetheless an effort to do something beyond the daily grind, that gives up us a glimpse of the nobility and grandeur, the majesty of the mountains themselves, that brings us closer to finding those same elements within ourselves. I totally agree with you on all the other things you've mentioned that are pretty much impossible to do and look cool or stylish at the same time--but not climbing. And crawling/surviving? Hey,man,epics and mistakes are still evidence that someone has tried to DO something, not just lay around on the couch playing video games or tubing. To come crawling out of the mountains,windblasted, frostbit, sunburnt, gaunt and hollow eyed, with a thousand yard stare, but ALIVE, up and moving, still going straight ahead, having survived terrible and even tragic ordeals, now that is the very stuff and substance, the fucking MARROW of Style and Cool.Tell me that Joe Simpson isn't cool, man. Tell me that what Ed Hillary, John Harlin, Joe Brown, Tom Patey, Galen Rowell, John Gill, Louis Lachenal, Anderl Heckmair or Layton Kor did wasn't cool. Tell me, man, that Conrad Anker, Colin Haley, Will Gadd, John Long, Doug Robinson, Fred Beckey or Tom Frost aren't cool. And tell me that the guy next to you in the middle of the night freezing his ass off on the bivy ledge halfway up the east face of Liberty Bell or Grand wall, in the rain, the guy sorting the rack and taking off on the next lead with a big grin even though he's scared to death, tell me that guy isn't cool. He might look gawky or geeky, some of my early climbing partners sure were, guys with glasses so thick they looked like chunks busted out of the bottom of pop bottles,skinny arms,climbing in t-shirts and jeans, but hey, they were out there, hanging off of Snow Creek Wall, somewhere up in the Nightmare Needles, Nooksack Tower, North face of Mt. Index or Baring or Town Wall, Vesper Peak, Warbonnet or Pingora, and that's pretty cool. Style and cool are OLD, man, they've been around a LONG time, as B.B. King would say. The Vikings, the Masai,the mountain men; like old Hugh Glass, a hunter with Jacob Ashley's party heading up the Missouri, who got mauled so bad by a Grizzly he was left to die alone in the wilderness, but somehow survived, and crawled clear across what is now southern Wyoming and half of Nebraska, with a broken leg splinted with the rawhide from the grizzly, to finally reach St. Louis on foot after 6 months. John Colter, Tom Fitzpatrick, Bill Sublette, Jedediah Smith, Jim Bridger and Joe Meek, these were some very cool guys with plenty of style, who took survival to a high art, as well they might have, studying with none other than the Blackfeet, Cheyenne, Mescalero Apache, Gros Ventre, Paiute, Crow, Kiowa, Comanche and so on, who were the masters. The point is, style and cool are way more than looks. And even the things you mention which are impossible to look cool or stylish while doing, well, even those are, in a sense, basic daily survival, the thing that's in us that makes us keep at it, day after day, when it's miserable and boring, when we're sick or stupid or scared, when we still just keep putting one foot ahead of the other to get the kids to school or get the garbage out to the curb, get to work on time. When you think about it, that's really pretty cool. Even the guy driving with a mattress on top of his car. Life is not easy, yet people constantly amaze me the way they keep at it in spite of everything, and they do it with a lot of laughter and spirit, too, and that's style, for sure. Victor Hugo, in "Les Miserables", said "There is nothing more beautiful than a man who gets back on his feet."; an old Chinese proverb says, " Seven times knocked down, eight times get up." Putting on your socks? Man, that's a Zen koan, nothing less. Everyday life, nothing special, yet how magical and miraculous, whether doing your taxes or climbing the west face of Uli Biaho. Zen master Oda Sesso Roshi said, "Sweep the garden,any size." Very, very cool, and loads of style. It may not always look that way, or appear to be very evident. But I guarantee you it's there. If you don't see it now, someday you will.

Second that, Tilly Jane is great, not far in, great skiing once you get there.Another one not too far in is Elk Meadows, good view of Hood, and there's an old log shelter there. Another nice spot is Paradise, you can skin up and over from Timberline down to Paradise Park and back out the next day (best if it's good weather so you don't have to deal with navigation difficulties, but it's pretty straightforward.)It's about twice as long as going to Elk Meadows. You can also ski or snowshoe up Newton Creek to the base of Gnarl Ridge/Lamberson Butte. Great upclose look at Hood, fairly sheltered camping, no cabin or shelter structure. You can also get there by simply continuing up the Ganarl Ridge trail from Elk Meadows.

Very nice little crag, interesting lines.Nice job on the pics and topo, too. What's the rolling plastic garbage can for? Not exactly the usual item of backpacking gear.

I grew up in Fort Worth, Texas. Believe me, they are still fighting the Civil War down there. Things have changed somewhat in the last 40 years, but there are still many,many people who actually think Lincoln should never have freed the slaves, that segregation is god's will, that miscegenation (interracial marriage) is a high crime and mortal,venal sin, and that black people should know and stay in their "place". I was in class in high school the day JFK was assassinated. When it was announced by the principal over the PA that the president has been shot in Dallas, the guy sitting next to me at the table in art class jumped out of his chair,banged his fist on the table, and shouted "They GOT him! They GOT the sonuvabitch!", and you could hear the rebel yell starting to echo down the halls. When it was announced that the president had died, wholesale cheering and the rebel yell thundered throughout the entire school, and the efforts of teachers and the principal to restrain it had little effect. At the lowering of the flag to half-mast in front of the school there were less than 100 of us, out of a school of over 2500 students. And walking home through the parking lot, I was once again reminded of where I was, by seeing that almost every car and pickup, including those of the teachers, had a Confederate flag sticker or decal in the rear window or on the bumper. While you seldom hear of the Ku Klux Klan anymore, it's far from dead. A great many still support the idea of lynching, as evidenced by the incident a year ago in Mississippi where the high school students hung nooses in a tree that was a favorite gathering spot on campus after several black students tried to assert their right to also gather there. After a fistfight, all the black students in the fight were arrested and charged with attempted murder. None of the white students were even detained. The black students were imprisoned for several months until things were finally straightened out at the federal level. I've traveled throughout the Deep South, and in states like Mississippi and Alabama, I've come into towns where the hatred is palpable, a living energy field of malice and the ever-present threat of violence if you say or do the wrong thing. Several years ago when a black man was dragged to death behind a pickup by two white men in south Texas, I was as shocked and disgusted as anyone, but not one bit surprised, because I used to hear talk about such things all the time as a kid, and into high school. Any excuse was enough to set off such an incident. Actually the city people tended to be far more bigoted than the country people, at least in my day. I had a number of summer jobs on farms and ranches out around Fort Worth, and white landowners often worked shoulder to shoulder with their black and Mexican hired help, (the Mexicans, especially in south and southwest Texas, were called braceros, literally "strong arms") and over the generations a genuine respect and mutual regard had developed. I once saw a white rancher, about to go in and sit down for the noon meal with his hired help, tell his white insurance man from Dallas, to get the hell off his property and never come back, when the insurance man said, "You sittin' down with them niggers and wetbacks, are ya? Well, I ain't". The rancher told him, "Mister, these men are out with me every day before sunrise, without fail, and they work hard until we go in at sundown. They're welcome at my door and at my table, anytime of day or night. They're ever' bit as good and worthy as any white man, and a hell of a sight better than you! Now get out!" But that was a rarity. More common was an incident when my father and I were at a Lion's Club meeting one afternoon. Some of the members got into a heated discussion about states' rights and the civil right demonstrations. Finally one man pounded his fist on the table and declared, "By God, ah'm a bigot, an' ah'm PROUD of it!". Stone wall. My Dad and I left when people started to talk about settling the matter with guns. My father never went back. I doubt that much will ever truly, deeply change in the South. There's no question that the so-called "Reconstruction" was vicious and cruel in the extreme; Northern politicians and carpetbaggers saw to that. The war was unspeakably brutal, and the seeds that were sown by the burning of farms and plantations,the looting, the raping, torture, and killing of women and girls, often in front of their families, and the wholesale leveling of cities like Richmond, Atlanta, Montgomery, etc., are still open wounds to many southerners, things that will never, ever, be forgotten or forgiven in the next 1000, 5000, or 10,000 years. While segregation is against the law, and things appear very different on the surface of southern society, segregation continues in any number of insidious, hidden ways such as you describe. The south is still showing the signs of PTSD, and the entire nation as well. We still all have a long, long, ways to go. And we won't ever get there until we learn to have respect and compassion for each other, simply as fellow human beings, regardless of race or creed, each for the other, and that one person's freedom ends where another's begins, that those rights and freedoms must be equal among us all.

You need to see a good orthopedist, since it sounds like the ankle joint is involved, not just the foot alone. A podiatrist specializes only on the foot, and would probably just send you to an orthopedist. And BTW, running, done properly, is actually better than jogging. Jogging can cause all sorts of problems due to poor form, the shuffling type of gait, uneven impact on the joints due to the slow speed and lack of momentum/balance. Man has been running for hundreds of thousands of years. One thing that can help is to have good quality, well-fitted running shoes, designed for the type of training you do, whether on a track, trail running, cross-training, etc. Good shoes can make a huge difference if you have recurring problems. In the meantime, before you see the orthopedist, ice it. Use a 1 or 2 lb. bag of frozen peas. Ice for 25 to 30 min. at a time, remove the ice and let the area warm to normal temp. on it's own, then repeat 2 or three times. After the first 24 hrs. alternate between heat and ice, ice first. But by all means, see that orthopedist. It would be best if he or she is familiar with or specializes in sports medicine. Best of luck.

Seeing what a big slab avy can really do was what finally brought home to me the sheer destructive power unleashed. Over 20 years ago, we went to see the debris field of a huge full snowpack slab release in upper Logan Canyon, above Logan, Utah in the Wasatch range. This avalanche had traveled twelve MILES from it's origin near the base of a big peak. The immense mass had literally scoured the canyon walls down to rock and soil, washing up around the bends like water sloshing around in a bathtub, before finally blasting across Logan Canyon Highway and fetching up against the opposite wall of the canyon. The road was buried over 45 feet deep before they cleared it out. The debris field of concrete-like snow was filled with rock the size of everything from pebbles and basketballs, to boulders the size of cars and pickups, there were at least a dozen carcasses of deer that looked like they'd been caught in a mangler, in some cases hide and flesh stripped to the bone,bodies torn completely in half, headless, limbs shattered, and hundreds of trees, some as large as 2 feet in diameter, broken into chunks 3 or 4 feet long, with all the branches and bark completely stripped off. There were some smaller animals as well, squirrels, a skunk, marmots, etc., everything just smashed to pieces. Nothing could have survived such a meatgrinder. A few weeks earlier, the son of my writing professor had been killed by a big avalanche just one canyon over. Ever since then, when the forecasts say to stay out of the back country, I listen and find somewhere else to go. I wish every BC skier could have seen that; I think there'd be at least a few less "accidents".

Absolutely, I use the straps on the flats as well, especially when carrying much of a pack. And hey, we're not gettin' old, just smart, right?

This is such a fun thread; I'm not sure which book of Long's that was, but as I remember that passage, he was talking about tourist families, kids and all, standing out in the meadow across from Camp 4 in Yosemite, gawking upwards at the wall, and then hearing, floating down from on high, the exasperated exclamation of a climber trying to communicate with his partner, "Off rappel, ASSHOLE!". Family vacation entertainment.