DCramer

LOL well Lance its kinda goofy to me. But since these guys spew with the assertion of authrority I saw someone should call them on their BS. JOn - Open the Rock Police Thread! But lock it so that the discussion stay shere!

Pope what we have is fact going against your constantly shifting argument. Let me be clear you simply make stuff up. There was no admonishment in my first post. You flat out said there was. You say : Implicit in your discussion is the idea that a new free climb with bolts is somehow better than an old aid climb that can be aided on nuts. Again you are making things up. My list made no such argument it was merely a response to one of your exaggerations. You said there are “countless” bolted A2 cracks, yet there are not. Let’s examine your list #10 I say people should go try to lead it before they take your word as to how good the pro is. See my comments above. 10 Percent Hey I did bolt the slab pitch on this. Didn’t place many bolts near a crack. As for the top of the first pitch I did not bolt it. I will leave it to others to decide how good the pro is. I would add again virtually the same comment I made with regard to Dana’s Arch. Someone started chipping the bottom section and I argued against that even stated that I’d remove any bolts placed. I have sent several people including couple who post on the site encouragement to free that part. It will be one of the greatest leads in WA. Wipe News to me. When it was first climbed the only fixed gear on it was a fixed pin sticking half way out. Are you making this up or is it real? What’s the scoop. Would this really qualify as a C2 crack? Cunning Stunt Bolts have been removed for quite some time. By the way the guy who bolted it thought I chopped it at first. Would this really qualify as a C2 crack? A belay in the middle of pitch 1 of Japanese Gardens That actually is a replacement/upgrade from an combination of an old pin and a bolt. Again I had nothing to do with it. I did advice Clint not to show it as a belay anchor but he did and someone upgraded it. An upgrade hardly counts beside the crack is too big for RPS here. Let’s further examine the rock police comment. This is a total crack up. Trask, stay close, you once asked me for my version of the events here it is. A long time ago. I am thinking early 90s (‘92?) the parks department held a series of meeting with climbers. After several meeting were held we took the some officials on a tour of Index. Other climbers on this tour included Access Fund Officials, Greg Child, Steve Swenson, Greg Collum. While walking along the base of the Lower Wall I heard a ‘tick” “tick”. I look up and see some guy aiding a clean (and I think free too) route with a hammer. I let the crowd pass and mentioned to the belayer ( I was sure not confrontational with the parks service guys a just down the wall) that the route was clean! (ie no hammer required) The climber (Dwayner) yelled down and asked what I was saying. Well low and behold he started spew an incredible amount of venom. Not wanting a big scene with the parks dept 30 yards away I beat a retreat. The next week I see our boy pope at the Vertical Club. So I saunter up to him and say “Your friend is an asshole and I bet you are too.” The normally feisty Pope was stammering. He admited that his friend was a bit offbase but justified it by saying he was a famous archaeologist! As if that mattered! He then came back with “he use to work for Jim Donini.” I explained to pope the about the tour. So off I go to Jim who was also in the gym and by merely describing Dwayner’s actions he could name the man! Fast forward to CC.com Dwayner posts a thread entitled “Rock Police” with a completely fictitious story line purportedly describing the above “confrontation”. It was pulled. I encourage Jon to bring it back to life so that we can see these two in action and after hearing my version of event let the readers decide which is more plausible. Why is that important? Well if I remember correctly Dwayner claims to have chased me out of CC.com and asserts that I won’t be coming back. This is germane to this argument because it shows yet another example of their poor behavior and the end goal of their debating style. After posting my reply to the Rock Police thread I received a PM form Dwayner asking me not to use his name in the thread. His stated clearly that he would say things under the name Dwayner that he wouldn’t say if posting under his real name. Of course now the cover is blown but I do think the PM was informative about the man. At first reading post on cc.com I had no idea ho these two were but while driving a friend of mine said “you do know who pope is”. It turns out pope tells the story that I almost beat him up at the Vertical Club. Let me assure you physical violence was never on my mind.

Thanks Dru – left out a decimal point!

That’s at most 16%(2/1,250) of the routes at Index. Let’s put the whole thing in context by quoting pope. Now take a look at the countless aid climbs at Index which were safe enough at C2 or so but which now sport bolts near reasonable RP placements. Dana’s Arch (20 years ago) The first section was TR’d at solid 5.12. We went back and the damage to the rock caused by pitons had reduced the difficulty to 5.11. We thought that a few bolts were better than continued blasting of the rock. So we added a few bolts. Several bolts have been added since we first bolted it and I believe an anchor as well. I wanna say that we ended the free section with an existing thread. When it was bolted it could not have been led cleanly. Although the free solo was/is an option. Since the bolts were place climbers have continued to damage the rock reducing the difficulty even further. To me it seems now in the 5.10/11 range. I did witness on party still nailing it this past spring. Is Dana’s Arch easily protected now? I am not sure; however, since it clearly wasn’t at the time it was bolted it shouldn’t count as an example of pope’s claim. It was also hand drilled and we never reportd it to anyone. Whether you agree with the decision to place the bolts or not this clearly is an outlier not fitting in with the general pattern of bolting issues today. Years later a bolt appeared on the short vertical crack above the initial arch and some creative scarring was employed to facilitate a free ascent. I argued against such tactics. Numbah 10 (15 years ago) I wasn’t involved in this route. But it is a great climb. When first climbed RPs were placed at the start. Do the RPs offer reasonable protection? I am not convinced they do. Pete Mayfield and Russ Clune have climbed it and both thought it was a good climb. Just like Dana’s Arch the route received several nailing ascents after being bolted. I encourage all the 5.12 tradsters to go give it a no bolt try. Be fair and don’t preinspect!

Sounds like a great motivator to me. Is it true? I’ll admit it the first time I saw my name in Climbing I bought the issue. But as real motivator it’s not very potent. Back in the late ‘70s early ‘80s very few people really climbed at Index. The fun of exploring the area was a big draw. At least for me pioneering recognition and seeing my name isn’t really a motivating force. Somehow I do not believe that it motivated Greg Child, Andy Deklerk, Greg Collum, Jon Nelson or Greg Olsen either but I cannot speak for them. The first three have FA all over the world including A5 El Cap routes and 8,000m peaks. Your claim doesn’t seem to convincing at least as far as Index but it does get pretty close to spray. I know very few of the Leavenworth guys very well but from what I have seen they are not motivated by perosnal recognition. Brian Burdo I know a bit better. If he was motivated by personal fame from derived from FAs he certainly would have come out by now with his long overdue Si guide! BTW it was in the early70’s that rap cleaning first began at Index. Rap bolting started a while later but was firmly in place before the advent of electric drill. The electric drill did speed things up but its biggest impact was that it brought larger diameter bolts into use.

TimL - Let's bring it back to Index. Have you noticed countless bolted cracks? If you can come up with over ten list them! Let's not have thread drift here.

Mister E I assume you mean you agree with the above quote from pope, afterall everyone has agreed that bolting next to cracks isn't a good thing. Countless bolted cracks at Index! A scandal! Countless is a whole lotta routes. The are over 1,250 pitches at Index. Mister E please show us your listing of the countless bolted cracks. Pope you join in too. Along with your never ending (ie countless) list please list the approx. date of the offense.

LOL Well I was typing fast and meant to say 'muckraker" as a kinder and gentler version of shit stirrer which is how you have desribed your posting on cc.com. Great replies by the way!

Jayb - is that really an appropriate topic for this thread?

Mattp - I think we all should know how to behave in a civil manner. There in fact two isues related to bolting. The first is bolting itself. The second is climbers' behavior debating bolting. Often the latter has a greater negative impact to the sport.

Jayb I disagree. At least at first I see more benefit coming from a more general discussion. Setting up boundries so to speak. Describing a single route unknown to many seems a bit like we are dooming this thread to instant death. Of course after saying that I feel that I must to say free to bring up one of my routes so this comment doesnt seem too self serving. If successful this forum might guide future actions! The past is less relevent at least to me.

I was a bit frustrated today when I open the cc.com page. The same old goddamn nonesense! The sad thing is that access is a concern for all of us. The first question is has the mudracker's behavior helped their cause? The answer is it hasn't. Some examples since they started posting: · Route production in the Icicle continues unabated. · A new sport area consisting of 50-60 new routes has been developed. · At Index a new route variation was bolted a section of rock that had already been climbed free onsite with nuts years earlier. · At Darrington many new routes have been installed. · At 38 scores of new routes have been created The second question is can bolting get out of control? Certainly. Should we care? Of course. Are the items in the above list good or bad? Both? Clearly it depends on who is doing the evaluating. I happen to think it's a mixed bag. I think most people putting up new routes are pretty good guys and would welcome constructive feedback. Over the past several years I have been in many arguments with people about bolting most of the time I was on the anti-bolting position. To the extent that this site was filled with "bolters are pussies" types of comments it was impossible to appeal to. If Jon and Timmy wish to have this site be a place of genuine discussion they will need to moderate with a much heavier hand. If those who argue against bolting want to be heard and have a real impact, they need to be honest and willing to compromise. This site's potential for both benefit and harm is too great to allow the nonsense to continue.

Jon - I just left a voice mail with Andy. I told him about a possible get together and asked what his availability/interest was over the few weeks. I ran into the same problem with the Access Fund and earmarking funds for local use. The good thing is the Access Fund encourages the formation of local groups. David Gunstone and I set a NFP corp to act as a funds holding place. He died in May and the corp is really doing nothing right now. After his death several people have expressed an interest in trying to get a local group together. If we could get a real group together I think the payback would be huge. You are right about this site being a great conduit for access info and local organization. The potential is mind-boggling.

Jon - I just left a voice mail with Andy. I told him about a possible get together and asked what his availability/interest was over the few weeks. I ran into the same problem with the Access Fund and earmarking funds for local use. The good thing is the Access Fund encourages the formation of local groups. David Gunstone and I set a NFP corp to act as a funds holding place. He died in May and the corp is really doing nothing right now. After his death several people have expressed an interest in trying to get a local group together. If we could get a real group together I think the payback would be huge. You are right about this site being a great conduit for access info and local organization. The potential is mind-boggling.

Well that's two! I'll get in touch with Andy and find out his schedule. Everyone - Let me know if you are interested. Glasscow - I uderstand and agree with much of what you are saying. If people seem interested and a date I set I hope you can come. National level action is only one-half of the equation. We need more local activity if only to become more aware of potential problems.

A month or two ago I spoke with Andy Fitz. He asked me if I knew anyone interested in getting involved in access issues. I pointed across the room at Mattp! About 18 months ago a half-dozen or so climbers from cc.com got together to talk about access issues. After seeing the discussion on cc.com get hijacked we pretty much left the site alone. We got caught up our own thing which was mainly to replace bolts and a little trail maintenance. I think Glasscow is on the right track in trying to get something together now. I would be happy to organize a get together either a BBQ or an evening at the pub if anyone would be interested. I bet Andy would be happy to join us. Anyone interested? Darryl

With an average pitch length of 100’ that’s a 700 foot cliff. Upper Wall is only a bit over 500’. It would be great if it were true and the Monroe guys were developing up a storm! One of the climbing Gregs told me about a new cliff out by Skykomish maybe it’s the same one. Did he tell you how long the approach is? There are some areas near Zekes that look pretty big. If you are driving east making that big turn near boulder drop and you look up, you'll see a big cliff up the hillside to the south of the highway. It's about a 30 minute flat hike to the base on roads. The cliff is pretty darn big but also lacking in good lines. It isn't granite either.

Here is a new Index route: Right now the first pitch of this route has not been cleaned completely, but I thought I’d post it here anyway since I think the FA party won’t be going back to it very soon. Bring extra 2.5” to 4” pieces Getting there: Go to the right side of Earwax Wall and climb up and slightly right to a tree. The route: P1 Traverse up and right to another tree at the base of a crack. There are two loose but fairly stable blocks on this section. Climb the crack to a ledge. Move right, then scramble up to an anchor. (5.8/9?) This pitch needs additional cleaning. 100' P2 Just left of the anchor are two cracks. Start up the right hand crack and move left when the going gets difficult. (I’ve seen this done several ways) The pro is a bit funky here. Follow the crack for 100’+ to a ledge. First 20’ are still a bit scruffy. (5.10a?) 140' P3 Easy climbing up a gully ends with an awkward move to the right. A couple of easy moves leads to the top. (mid-fifth class) 50' Getting down: Rap or walk off. The Back Road route climbs the first 15’ of the second pitch and then takes the obvious hand traverse to the right. It is probably not a good route to try.

A couple of scoundrels no doubt! I think the bolted line climbs an arete for almost a rope length and ends on a sloping ledge. Every time I have talked to one of those two guys for the past year he has been raving about it and others in the area. I haven’t been there in a few years but the route should be easy to find. Are you sure they finished it? Cman do you do a lot of bouldering?

I was at the Upper Wall last Sunday for the second week in a row. The amount of new garbage that had been thrown off the wall during the seven days between my visits was appalling. We hauled out a garbage bag and stuffed our packs with debris. Even worse than garbage was the number of large rocks being thrown off the top. It seems as though instead of being an occasional hazard recreational rock/trash throwing is becoming commonplace. I would like to see the WA Parks post some signs at the top of the Upper Wall and at a point or two along the access roads leading to the top. Hopefully the people throwing these items are simply unaware that there are climbers below and will stop throwing things once they become aware of how reckless their actions are. The signs might also help to reduce the volume of trash thrown off. There are more than enough dollars remaining from various fundraisers to offer to pay for the signs. The danger zone is for the most part between the Earwax and Dana's Arch routes. Any other thoughts?

Erik - Roger's Corner is to the right of the ice. The ice is on the Black Wall just left of Leo Chimney. You can see Marginal Karma and B o C on the corner wall. It look like GNS has changed a bit since the picture was taken. OW - Nice pic. Thanks for posting it. Believe it or not the Pickett photos were stored in a garage for years until they were donated to the UW. It is remarkable that they held up so well. Just a few years ago the collection was not even properly indexed it is great to find out that now it is an online resource. D

The State taking an interest in the Town Walls is definitely a mixed bag in terms of possible outcomes. I for one would hate to see it over-developed and/or regulated. There are at least two good outcomes possible. Climbers should be pressing for both. The first is toilets near the Lower Wall. The second, restriction of 4WD and motorcycle access to the top of the Upper Wall, is obvious to anyone who has walked along the base of the Upper Wall. Yesterday the usual barrages of beer cans were descending but joining them were some rather large rocks. Several of them measuring in at a couple feet across. Besides creating an eyesore these activities are incredibly dangerous. The most dangerous section of the UW is between Earwax and Dana’s Arch. Be careful if you are walking along the base of the Upper Wall. Darryl

In the late 70’s there were several of articles written by the climbers bringing alpine style ascents to the big mountains. In at least some of these simulclimbing was advocated. I remember at the time being quite interested in trying it out but soon discovered that my interest in climbing really did not involve mountains so much as cliffs.

Erik – I can think of seven without giving it much effort. The Big Tree route at Three O’Clock Rock also has some good jamming. What I am finding surprising is how few stand out HCs I can think of in the NW. I keep thinking of TCs. It is also surprising is how people view the same climb differently. For example, Moonshine dihedral in this thread or Sunshine Dihedral in another crack thread. I do not remember Sunshine as being much of a crack climb at all. Two climbs 100’ feet apart and four different memories. EDIT: The Great Northern Slab handcrack! (5.6)

Hmm I wanna add Thin Fingers to the list but can’t convince myself that it qualifies. Perspective at Squamish. Steep well protected .11a. Does anyone really climb the Right Side as a hand crack? Pumpline (.11b) in the Icicle is thin at the bottom but thin hands at the crux. Fun climb and easy to set a TR on. ***Warning:Short TRs ahead*** Clash City (.11) and Train In Vain (.12) at Snoqualmie Pass. Anne with an E (.11+) is a five minute walk up the hill and is a great flared hand (maybe finger crack) Since Smith is in why hasn’t anyone mentioned Shoes (.11b)?