DCramer

Are you saying that BOC is at least 5.10c?

Whoops! I meant to say that the upper crack was not eaiser than BOC! But I havent climbed BOC for along time.

Wscottf - I agree that above the first move on the "2nd" pitch Thin Fingers is not 5.11. I guess what is claimed depends on what guide you use. To me the upper crack is easier than BOC. That first move if done directly is 5.11. You can traverse in from the right and avoid the crux move. The consensus seems to be that the upper crack has become larger over time. If I really think about it I find this hard to believe but while climbing it the crack does seem like it takes larger cams than 20 years ago. A good quarry legend in any event. Big Toes is a fun variation. Maybe that's where the 5.11 confusion comes in.

Lots of nonesense here today so I thought I'd post something I found while cleaning my desk. It is from the 60's Index guide by Greg Donaldson. I like the pin list.

I think Gunstone was on that committee. Since most of those putting up FAs were on the committee in practice they would approve there own creations!

From an earlier post in this thread: I started this thread with the hope that it would be a good starting place for discussion if not debate. I endeavor to be honest and fair in my comments. I do not think that has been the case for others here on cc.com. There is no reason for these debates to be accusatory and acrimonious. Yet they are. That is the true “nonsense”. Cracked ask yourself why others putting up FAs don’t post here? The answer is simply the BS and outright lies they have to put up with. Look at the goofy “Rock Police” thread. Kind of amazing isn’t it! The last several years cc.com has grown dramatically. Back when the RP thread was posted I told Jon that the site was going to be great in time and encouraged others to post here. I absolutely hate these bolting issues but finally decided I should say something. I start otu with a list of transgressions and end with "hey I wasn't accsuing you.." Let's move on. There is a difference between "a list of your transgressions" and "your list of transgressions". When you started the thread, you listed a number of facts about the current state of bolting. That is "your list of transgressions". They are not your transgressions, just your list. Get it?

Mr. Cramer ??? Enough of that talk.

Committees seem like a bad solution to a semi-problem. The number of people actually bolting routes is quite small. Those bolting cracks still smaller. Before committees are even considered I would say get involved on a personal level. Perhaps if cc.com was a more congenial place to report FAs they would be reported and put up in the cc.com way. I’ll leave Index aside and simply ask the question: What areas have problems? How old are those badly bolted routes in Leavenworth? Has FA behavior changed? I say let’s worry about getting a dialogue going rather than trying to set up committees.

Mattp – In theory the poll is nice but what about implementation? For example, I have seen some claims that a crack can be adequately protected with RPs, yet I call BS on those claims. How would cc.com judge such claims and who would judge? Granted some things are obvious others; however are not. I question whether this really the best way for cc.com to broach the subject?

From an earlier post in this thread: I started this thread with the hope that it would be a good starting place for discussion if not debate. I endeavor to be honest and fair in my comments. I do not think that has been the case for others here on cc.com. There is no reason for these debates to be accusatory and acrimonious. Yet they are. That is the true “nonsense”. Cracked ask yourself why others putting up FAs don’t post here? The answer is simply the BS and outright lies they have to put up with. Look at the goofy “Rock Police” thread. Kind of amazing isn’t it! The last several years cc.com has grown dramatically. Back when the RP thread was posted I told Jon that the site was going to be great in time and encouraged others to post here. I absolutely hate these bolting issues but finally decided I should say something. I start otu with a list of transgressions and end with "hey I wasn't accsuing you.." Let's move on.

Cracked - I think my replies were kinda low key. I didn't bring the rock cop thing up until pope tried jabbing it at me.

LOL well Lance its kinda goofy to me. But since these guys spew with the assertion of authrority I saw someone should call them on their BS. JOn - Open the Rock Police Thread! But lock it so that the discussion stay shere!

Pope what we have is fact going against your constantly shifting argument. Let me be clear you simply make stuff up. There was no admonishment in my first post. You flat out said there was. You say : Implicit in your discussion is the idea that a new free climb with bolts is somehow better than an old aid climb that can be aided on nuts. Again you are making things up. My list made no such argument it was merely a response to one of your exaggerations. You said there are “countless” bolted A2 cracks, yet there are not. Let’s examine your list #10 I say people should go try to lead it before they take your word as to how good the pro is. See my comments above. 10 Percent Hey I did bolt the slab pitch on this. Didn’t place many bolts near a crack. As for the top of the first pitch I did not bolt it. I will leave it to others to decide how good the pro is. I would add again virtually the same comment I made with regard to Dana’s Arch. Someone started chipping the bottom section and I argued against that even stated that I’d remove any bolts placed. I have sent several people including couple who post on the site encouragement to free that part. It will be one of the greatest leads in WA. Wipe News to me. When it was first climbed the only fixed gear on it was a fixed pin sticking half way out. Are you making this up or is it real? What’s the scoop. Would this really qualify as a C2 crack? Cunning Stunt Bolts have been removed for quite some time. By the way the guy who bolted it thought I chopped it at first. Would this really qualify as a C2 crack? A belay in the middle of pitch 1 of Japanese Gardens That actually is a replacement/upgrade from an combination of an old pin and a bolt. Again I had nothing to do with it. I did advice Clint not to show it as a belay anchor but he did and someone upgraded it. An upgrade hardly counts beside the crack is too big for RPS here. Let’s further examine the rock police comment. This is a total crack up. Trask, stay close, you once asked me for my version of the events here it is. A long time ago. I am thinking early 90s (‘92?) the parks department held a series of meeting with climbers. After several meeting were held we took the some officials on a tour of Index. Other climbers on this tour included Access Fund Officials, Greg Child, Steve Swenson, Greg Collum. While walking along the base of the Lower Wall I heard a ‘tick” “tick”. I look up and see some guy aiding a clean (and I think free too) route with a hammer. I let the crowd pass and mentioned to the belayer ( I was sure not confrontational with the parks service guys a just down the wall) that the route was clean! (ie no hammer required) The climber (Dwayner) yelled down and asked what I was saying. Well low and behold he started spew an incredible amount of venom. Not wanting a big scene with the parks dept 30 yards away I beat a retreat. The next week I see our boy pope at the Vertical Club. So I saunter up to him and say “Your friend is an asshole and I bet you are too.” The normally feisty Pope was stammering. He admited that his friend was a bit offbase but justified it by saying he was a famous archaeologist! As if that mattered! He then came back with “he use to work for Jim Donini.” I explained to pope the about the tour. So off I go to Jim who was also in the gym and by merely describing Dwayner’s actions he could name the man! Fast forward to CC.com Dwayner posts a thread entitled “Rock Police” with a completely fictitious story line purportedly describing the above “confrontation”. It was pulled. I encourage Jon to bring it back to life so that we can see these two in action and after hearing my version of event let the readers decide which is more plausible. Why is that important? Well if I remember correctly Dwayner claims to have chased me out of CC.com and asserts that I won’t be coming back. This is germane to this argument because it shows yet another example of their poor behavior and the end goal of their debating style. After posting my reply to the Rock Police thread I received a PM form Dwayner asking me not to use his name in the thread. His stated clearly that he would say things under the name Dwayner that he wouldn’t say if posting under his real name. Of course now the cover is blown but I do think the PM was informative about the man. At first reading post on cc.com I had no idea ho these two were but while driving a friend of mine said “you do know who pope is”. It turns out pope tells the story that I almost beat him up at the Vertical Club. Let me assure you physical violence was never on my mind.

Thanks Dru – left out a decimal point!

That’s at most 16%(2/1,250) of the routes at Index. Let’s put the whole thing in context by quoting pope. Now take a look at the countless aid climbs at Index which were safe enough at C2 or so but which now sport bolts near reasonable RP placements. Dana’s Arch (20 years ago) The first section was TR’d at solid 5.12. We went back and the damage to the rock caused by pitons had reduced the difficulty to 5.11. We thought that a few bolts were better than continued blasting of the rock. So we added a few bolts. Several bolts have been added since we first bolted it and I believe an anchor as well. I wanna say that we ended the free section with an existing thread. When it was bolted it could not have been led cleanly. Although the free solo was/is an option. Since the bolts were place climbers have continued to damage the rock reducing the difficulty even further. To me it seems now in the 5.10/11 range. I did witness on party still nailing it this past spring. Is Dana’s Arch easily protected now? I am not sure; however, since it clearly wasn’t at the time it was bolted it shouldn’t count as an example of pope’s claim. It was also hand drilled and we never reportd it to anyone. Whether you agree with the decision to place the bolts or not this clearly is an outlier not fitting in with the general pattern of bolting issues today. Years later a bolt appeared on the short vertical crack above the initial arch and some creative scarring was employed to facilitate a free ascent. I argued against such tactics. Numbah 10 (15 years ago) I wasn’t involved in this route. But it is a great climb. When first climbed RPs were placed at the start. Do the RPs offer reasonable protection? I am not convinced they do. Pete Mayfield and Russ Clune have climbed it and both thought it was a good climb. Just like Dana’s Arch the route received several nailing ascents after being bolted. I encourage all the 5.12 tradsters to go give it a no bolt try. Be fair and don’t preinspect!

Sounds like a great motivator to me. Is it true? I’ll admit it the first time I saw my name in Climbing I bought the issue. But as real motivator it’s not very potent. Back in the late ‘70s early ‘80s very few people really climbed at Index. The fun of exploring the area was a big draw. At least for me pioneering recognition and seeing my name isn’t really a motivating force. Somehow I do not believe that it motivated Greg Child, Andy Deklerk, Greg Collum, Jon Nelson or Greg Olsen either but I cannot speak for them. The first three have FA all over the world including A5 El Cap routes and 8,000m peaks. Your claim doesn’t seem to convincing at least as far as Index but it does get pretty close to spray. I know very few of the Leavenworth guys very well but from what I have seen they are not motivated by perosnal recognition. Brian Burdo I know a bit better. If he was motivated by personal fame from derived from FAs he certainly would have come out by now with his long overdue Si guide! BTW it was in the early70’s that rap cleaning first began at Index. Rap bolting started a while later but was firmly in place before the advent of electric drill. The electric drill did speed things up but its biggest impact was that it brought larger diameter bolts into use.

TimL - Let's bring it back to Index. Have you noticed countless bolted cracks? If you can come up with over ten list them! Let's not have thread drift here.

Mister E I assume you mean you agree with the above quote from pope, afterall everyone has agreed that bolting next to cracks isn't a good thing. Countless bolted cracks at Index! A scandal! Countless is a whole lotta routes. The are over 1,250 pitches at Index. Mister E please show us your listing of the countless bolted cracks. Pope you join in too. Along with your never ending (ie countless) list please list the approx. date of the offense.

LOL Well I was typing fast and meant to say 'muckraker" as a kinder and gentler version of shit stirrer which is how you have desribed your posting on cc.com. Great replies by the way!

Jayb - is that really an appropriate topic for this thread?

Mattp - I think we all should know how to behave in a civil manner. There in fact two isues related to bolting. The first is bolting itself. The second is climbers' behavior debating bolting. Often the latter has a greater negative impact to the sport.

Jayb I disagree. At least at first I see more benefit coming from a more general discussion. Setting up boundries so to speak. Describing a single route unknown to many seems a bit like we are dooming this thread to instant death. Of course after saying that I feel that I must to say free to bring up one of my routes so this comment doesnt seem too self serving. If successful this forum might guide future actions! The past is less relevent at least to me.

I was a bit frustrated today when I open the cc.com page. The same old goddamn nonesense! The sad thing is that access is a concern for all of us. The first question is has the mudracker's behavior helped their cause? The answer is it hasn't. Some examples since they started posting: · Route production in the Icicle continues unabated. · A new sport area consisting of 50-60 new routes has been developed. · At Index a new route variation was bolted a section of rock that had already been climbed free onsite with nuts years earlier. · At Darrington many new routes have been installed. · At 38 scores of new routes have been created The second question is can bolting get out of control? Certainly. Should we care? Of course. Are the items in the above list good or bad? Both? Clearly it depends on who is doing the evaluating. I happen to think it's a mixed bag. I think most people putting up new routes are pretty good guys and would welcome constructive feedback. Over the past several years I have been in many arguments with people about bolting most of the time I was on the anti-bolting position. To the extent that this site was filled with "bolters are pussies" types of comments it was impossible to appeal to. If Jon and Timmy wish to have this site be a place of genuine discussion they will need to moderate with a much heavier hand. If those who argue against bolting want to be heard and have a real impact, they need to be honest and willing to compromise. This site's potential for both benefit and harm is too great to allow the nonsense to continue.

Jon - I just left a voice mail with Andy. I told him about a possible get together and asked what his availability/interest was over the few weeks. I ran into the same problem with the Access Fund and earmarking funds for local use. The good thing is the Access Fund encourages the formation of local groups. David Gunstone and I set a NFP corp to act as a funds holding place. He died in May and the corp is really doing nothing right now. After his death several people have expressed an interest in trying to get a local group together. If we could get a real group together I think the payback would be huge. You are right about this site being a great conduit for access info and local organization. The potential is mind-boggling.