DCramer

Shhh! Lance you are giving away the secrets of the super secret spot!

I purchased some used strips for a very low price. Used them a bit last year and am starting again Sunday. You could easily buy/make your own holds and lay them out in an appropriate pattern. Knowing what I know now, if I couldn't buy the strips cheaply, I would make my own. All you really need are a good edge, a two finger pocket and a pinch. The pinch would be the hardest to get. Last year I noticed some improvement in strength but honestly since I climb so infrequently it is really hard to evaluate the program's real impact.

On the right side of Midnight Rock the Apron Jam route. (5.7) It isn’t climbed very often but it is in a fantastic position.

A couple other threads would be Witch Doctor Wall Free A TR about Cerberus @ Squamish A TR about the top pitches of Remorse on SCW A TR about the east face of Gunsight –so I’d know if there really was a huge rockfall.

In a perfect world these would be threads on cc.com: 1 – Freeing of second pitch of Golden Arch. Only a body length to go! 2 – Free the start of 10%. Thin but good pro. Clean and dries fast. 3 – Free Hell Bent For Glory. Only a few hangs need to be eliminated. 4 – Free Bobcat Reality. Faster please!

Can't you place a #2 Friend right below where the pin use to be? (By right below I mean within 2" of the pin?)Is there a bomber #5 rp or small nut about two feet higher that you can place before doing the crux? It is too bad the pins were stolen. Especially the lower two.

Erik - When are you coming back? Looks like there will be lots of new routes this year.

The sad thing about Index is that very people ever travel off the very well beaten path to the base of the Lower Wall. As a general rule all the less traveled routes will be a bit dirty. While it isn’t current beta my experience is consistent with Lance’s. Many years ago the first pitch was awful mostly due to dirt sloughing off of the ledge above. The main corner is however a pretty impressive feature and looks very appealing. My understanding is that the bolts are ¼” You might want to try Jack O Diamonds instead if you’re set on a Diamond route. All the published topos of JOD are a bit off but I think some of the bolts may have been upgraded.

I pretty much agree with the "don't mess withthings viewpoint." I am not sure why soemone took the pins on Iron Horse, they had been in place pretty much constantly (with a few exceptions in recent years) since I first climbed at the Town Walls. As far as the upper pin (bottom of V slot) the last few times I was on the pitch the pin was definately cracked. I am not sure if it would have held much of a fall. Pins seem to get stolen at Index with a disconcerting frequency. There use to be a FP a bit higher as well.

I thought we were talking clean aid? Anyway another reason besides ladybugs for not nailing is that the rock over in the quarry area is just about as brittle as Index gets. It is very easily scarred and even a single pin placement can have a significant impact. Bigwalling brings up a good point about ratings. Aid ratings have become somewhat messed up or at the very least confusing. The ratings do not mean the same thing as they did 25 years ago. I think the ratings at Index may be off current Yosemite standards in many cases. Any suggestions for rating adjustments? You can post them here but an email that I could print off and file away for future reference would be even better.

Iron Horse is C2 to the ringing flake. I imagine the v-slot above the ringing flake would be easy clean aid too. Passing roof may be a bit harder. I have only viewed the roof section from a free climbing perspective but I think it might be harder than C2 and an aid line past the roof might not follow the free line. It would be easy to avoid the roof by aiding Sagittarius. A ball nut is not mandatory for 10%. You might consider aiding Shirley. It is a really good aid climb. There is no anchor at the top of the first pitch; however, the second is easy clean aid. Have you aided Steel Monkey? It is on the left side of the Country and stays fairly dry even in the rain. It is easy clean aid. It requires some small pieces and it is pretty short.

I wonder if you mean the OW/Squeeze just to the left of Lamplighter. I wouldn’t describe the first pitch of Lamplighter as either a squeeze or as an offwidth but the overhanging crack just to the left can be described that way. A couple years ago I ripped some huge pieces of rock from the left crack so the rating is up in the air. If I was leading it, I would definitely bring along some big gear. 4” would be a bit on the small side.

You can traverse to the upper pitches of NAD very easily from a variety of routes to the right. Thin Fingers for example.

Are you saying that BOC is at least 5.10c?

Whoops! I meant to say that the upper crack was not eaiser than BOC! But I havent climbed BOC for along time.

Wscottf - I agree that above the first move on the "2nd" pitch Thin Fingers is not 5.11. I guess what is claimed depends on what guide you use. To me the upper crack is easier than BOC. That first move if done directly is 5.11. You can traverse in from the right and avoid the crux move. The consensus seems to be that the upper crack has become larger over time. If I really think about it I find this hard to believe but while climbing it the crack does seem like it takes larger cams than 20 years ago. A good quarry legend in any event. Big Toes is a fun variation. Maybe that's where the 5.11 confusion comes in.

Lots of nonesense here today so I thought I'd post something I found while cleaning my desk. It is from the 60's Index guide by Greg Donaldson. I like the pin list.

I think Gunstone was on that committee. Since most of those putting up FAs were on the committee in practice they would approve there own creations!

From an earlier post in this thread: I started this thread with the hope that it would be a good starting place for discussion if not debate. I endeavor to be honest and fair in my comments. I do not think that has been the case for others here on cc.com. There is no reason for these debates to be accusatory and acrimonious. Yet they are. That is the true “nonsense”. Cracked ask yourself why others putting up FAs don’t post here? The answer is simply the BS and outright lies they have to put up with. Look at the goofy “Rock Police” thread. Kind of amazing isn’t it! The last several years cc.com has grown dramatically. Back when the RP thread was posted I told Jon that the site was going to be great in time and encouraged others to post here. I absolutely hate these bolting issues but finally decided I should say something. I start otu with a list of transgressions and end with "hey I wasn't accsuing you.." Let's move on. There is a difference between "a list of your transgressions" and "your list of transgressions". When you started the thread, you listed a number of facts about the current state of bolting. That is "your list of transgressions". They are not your transgressions, just your list. Get it?

Mr. Cramer ??? Enough of that talk.

Committees seem like a bad solution to a semi-problem. The number of people actually bolting routes is quite small. Those bolting cracks still smaller. Before committees are even considered I would say get involved on a personal level. Perhaps if cc.com was a more congenial place to report FAs they would be reported and put up in the cc.com way. I’ll leave Index aside and simply ask the question: What areas have problems? How old are those badly bolted routes in Leavenworth? Has FA behavior changed? I say let’s worry about getting a dialogue going rather than trying to set up committees.

Mattp – In theory the poll is nice but what about implementation? For example, I have seen some claims that a crack can be adequately protected with RPs, yet I call BS on those claims. How would cc.com judge such claims and who would judge? Granted some things are obvious others; however are not. I question whether this really the best way for cc.com to broach the subject?

From an earlier post in this thread: I started this thread with the hope that it would be a good starting place for discussion if not debate. I endeavor to be honest and fair in my comments. I do not think that has been the case for others here on cc.com. There is no reason for these debates to be accusatory and acrimonious. Yet they are. That is the true “nonsense”. Cracked ask yourself why others putting up FAs don’t post here? The answer is simply the BS and outright lies they have to put up with. Look at the goofy “Rock Police” thread. Kind of amazing isn’t it! The last several years cc.com has grown dramatically. Back when the RP thread was posted I told Jon that the site was going to be great in time and encouraged others to post here. I absolutely hate these bolting issues but finally decided I should say something. I start otu with a list of transgressions and end with "hey I wasn't accsuing you.." Let's move on.

Cracked - I think my replies were kinda low key. I didn't bring the rock cop thing up until pope tried jabbing it at me.