Peter_Puget

Here is a copy of my PM: Actually I hate it but I truly believe you have been a negative element on this site over the past year and half. I believe that your aims could be achieved via different tactics and that you choose your tactics for short term entertainment value not as a means to expeditiously reach your goals. BTW I never did read your earlier PM's but in a the thread "Fragile Poster" didn't say you asked me not to send you PM's? BTW Way Pope does "I" mean all of your identities? [ 04-19-2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Pope – You scoundrel you have mixed posts and selectively edited my comments! Pope Quote: “quote: Originally posted by Peter Puget: Holy s%$#! First Dwayner starts moving my way and now Pope has stolen my line! Watch out Pope, I could sue you for plagiarism. PP And this is not taking credit for the suggestion about the validity of TR ascents?” Here is the first Peter quote without strategic edits:”Holy s%$#! First Dwayner starts moving my way and now Pope has stolen my line! Watch out Pope, I could sue you for plagiarism. Interested parties can go back and see that about one year ago in the initial bolt arguments and note where I advocated the acknowledgement of the validity of TRs, direct civil contact and then if necessary discrete removal” Quote from Peter’s second response to this thread: “I am not taking credit for saying the validity of TR or contacting a retro bolter. What I suggested was that I outlined a series of steps for dealing with errant bolters that did not needlessly antagonize and ridicule others in a counter productive manner. “ Quote from Pope [here Pope is quoting me]“Given a diminishing resource is it fair for someone to put up a poorly bolted route just because he is first? Because he was on lead? I say no. The question has never been the sport way or the trad way. It is, as I have repeatedly stated ,the sharing of a limited resource by a diverse group of people. EVERYONE must give. No group is better or more deserving than another.” [Now Pope is speaking]“Underlying this is the assumption that a “poorly” bolted route is one with too few bolts. Assuming this is true, your quote implies that such a route then will be enjoyed by a more exclusive group, that a more diverse group will somehow be unable to enjoy it. Therein lies your call for equal access. I apologize for putting you through these mental gymnastics. I assumed YOU wouldn’t be reading late at night.” Full quote from Peter: “Rap placement or on lead placement it makes no difference. There is simply nothing edifying inherent in a particular style of climbing. The result that should be evaluated is not the subjective experience of the FA party but rather the physical nature of the route. For example, Is it over/under protected? Are the bolts placed in the best positions? Given a diminishing resource is it fair for someone to put up a poorly bolted route just because he is first? Because he was on lead? I say no. The question has never been the sport way or the trad way. It is, as I have repeatedly stated ,the sharing of a limited resource by a diverse group of people. EVERYONE must give. No group is better or more deserving than another.” Pope note this line in the above quote “Is it over/under protected?”Now think of the Condorphamine Route. Longtime CC.com’s will remember how this route was ridiculed because TOO MANY bolts were placed. Some have suggested that you could have one at your feet, one at your waist, while your were clipping the third. I haven’t climbed the route but if true I would say hey too many bolts! Another example: once I climbed a route where the leader placed bolts off hooks on lead unfortunately due to that fact, everyone of the bolts was in a terrible clipping position. Simply put there was and is no implication as you suggest. Pope quote:”It was very juvenile of me to respond to this. I apologize for boasting. I think this must be the third time a sport boy like P.P. has come out with this “pope can’t climb hard” line of crapIt was very juvenile of me to respond to this. I apologize for boasting. I think this must be the third time a sport boy like P.P. has come out with this “pope can’t climb hard” line of crap. Peter, this isn’t your original and clever line either, I’m afraid.” Actually as I said earlier I knew exactly what your response would be since you have given it many times so I am afraid it wasn’t a “pope can’t climb hard” line of crap.” Simply pulling your chain. Pope Quote: He might have even noticed when you called me a hypocrite for denouncing the DDD retrobolting while promising not to chop it since those guys are my buddies. I don’t think that I said hypocrite although it was so long ago and I might have been typing fast. If I did it was in error I would have chosen another word. I can think of several. Pope Quote: “Why do you keep trying to get into my pants?” Now why on earth do you always turn things into something sexual? Regards, PP

Peter Puget, you're coming from such a foreign paradigm, I can't relate at all. But thanks for the definition of edify. And to think that I had equated "enlighten" with "To instruct and improve esp. in moral and religious knowledge." I think I'll have to get another edition of Webster's dictionary because the one I got has "edify" and "enlighten" as synonyms. Main Entry: syn·o·nym javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?synony01.wav=synonym')javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?synony01.wav=synonym') Pronunciation: 'si-n&-"nim Function: noun Etymology: Middle English sinonyme, from Latin synonymum, from Greek synOnymon, from neuter of synOnymos synonymous, from syn- + onyma name -- more at NAME Date: 15th century 1 : one of two or more words or expressions of the same language that have the same or nearly the same meaning in some or all senses Clearly considering two synonyms as always interchangeable is wrong. But in any event I wasn’t disputing your use of enlighten. What I do dispute is that there is something enlightening inherent in climbing. While you may feel you have had enlightening experiences while climbing, it is simply your experience. Hopefully you have a great time climbing but your experience is yours alone. Others may climb the same route and experience nothing even close to enlightenment.

Pope: Pope Quote:”The validity of a top-rope is hardly an original idea of yours or mine, although if you're short on original thoughts, you're welcome to take credit. Contacting a retro-bolter to establish a dialogue? Oddly enough, I attempted to do this within one week of my first anti-bolt post. I'm pretty sure this happened before you "published" your brilliant ideas one year ago.” I am not taking credit for saying the validity of TR or contacting a retro bolter. What I suggested was that I outlined a series of steps for dealing with errant bolters that did not needlessly antagonize and ridicule others in a counter productive manner. Now you have agreed with my suggestions: [insert quote] “restoration should be performed without making a spectacle.” I advocated that long ago. Sadly I see your ranting continues, thus adding a significant element of “spectacle” to the affair. While you now give it lip service your vanity keeps you spewing. For example, long ago in the DDD debacle you contacted the villain then when he proceeded to ignore your wishes you brought the matter up publicly and created a situation where you encouraged others to chop the bolts. I agreed then and still believe that they should have been removed. I thought that the insults related to it and your chicken shit manner of slamming your friend while keeping his name secret and of getting others to do the dirty work were/are spectacularly inflammatory. I suggested that someone just remove the bolts with little fan fair. Certainly that would have given a message to the bolters and not subjected everyone (including those already antagonistic towards climbing) to a public shit fest. A simple post simply stating the removal and reasoning would have been preferred over the spew. More examples of spectacle making are available by simply searching on your ID#. Pope Quote;”Christ, this was not going to be another thread in which I argued about bolting, access, etc. Just a question or two, Mr. P.P. Firstly, how can you hope to extend equal access to all climbers? Doesn't climbing limit access to some groups by its very nature? What exaggerated modifications are you willing to make to the rock to guarantee this access to "everybody"? Also, how does putting bolts into an established TR make it more accessible to anybody? Finally, where do aesthetics fit into your equation?” Peter Quote: “The question has never been the sport way or the trad way. It is, as I have repeatedly stated ,the sharing of a limited resource by a diverse group of people. EVERYONE must give. No group is better or more deserving than another.” After reading your comments regarding equal access I first thought “what the hell did I write.” Upon reviewing my post I can see that you have simply created something out of thin air. Clearly I never suggested equal access. So I will only suggest that you must have been very tired when you wrote your comments regarding equal access. My guess is that over the last year I have removed more “offensive” bolts than you, Ray, Will or even Mitch. I choose to do so in a discrete manner. Your response as quoted above is simply sophomoric chatter. Pope Quote “One more thing: where do you get your information about Pope's hardest sport lead? My hardest clip-up was said to be 5.12b/c, this being accomplished without aid or falls on my first attempt. I haven't attempted anything harder, although I "flashed" 5.12d (Equinox, Joshua Tree) on TR (felt about as scary as sport climbing).” Actually as far as the rating I was poking fun at you as several times you have mentioned your hardest sport lead and the last time (actually the time before this last time!) claimed it was the first and last time you would do so. I thought you must be seeking some acknowledgement. By the way my ascent was a real no hang, place your pro, first time kinda thing. By the way congrats on Equinox you must have lady fingers. Cheers, PP

Def: (Websters) Edify: To instruct and improve esp. in moral and religious knowledge. Quote:”Whoa. So, in your mind, a rap-bolted ascent is no more noteworthy than a ground-up ascent?” Answer: It all depends. The vast majority of FA regardless of style are simple unremarkable. But you conclusion does not follow what I said. Quote:”Do you extend this to a free ascent being no more noteworthy than an aid ascent of the same climb?” Depends. For example someone aiding via hooks up Bloodlust at Squamish would be more noteworthy than a free ascent. In general most ascents are simply not noteworthy. Quote:”Have you actually been on the sharp-end on a ground-up ascent? You might find it VERY enlightening (i.e. edifying). I think that there absolutely is a difference between ascent styles --inherently. Our sport glorifies style, and many pursue a (subjectively) pure one when they climb.” I never said there were not differences. And yes I have I have actually placed bolts on lead. Once so far out from the prior one that I was too scared to climb it again when I went back to add a new pitch! The nature of the climbing was not sufficient to “ instruct and improve esp. in moral and religious knowledge.” People are free to pursue any style they wish. The fact that they choose one goal does not diminish mine or someone else’s if we have chosen another. It is impossible for me to evaluate the quality of your experience. I am completely able to think that a trembling 5.6 leader on a well protected traditional or even sport climb is more “out there” than me when I lead that pitch I described earlier (the one that I chickened out on later) In otherwords (yours if I understand you correctly)his/her experience is far more noteworthy than mine. [ 04-18-2002, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Holy s%$#! First Dwayner starts moving my way and now Pope has stolen my line! Watch out Pope, I could sue you for plagiarism. Interested parties can go back and see that about one year ago in the initial bolt arguments and note where I advocated the acknowledgement of the validity of TRs, direct civil contact and then if necessary discrete removal. I even noted that I had recently removed some myself. After a year it is nice to see you come around and jump on the wagon. Too bad we all had to suffer through a year of public invective and your disingenuous claims that you are not trying to incite controversy. Even the effortlessly cool Mattp had to rebuke you. You can work yourself to redemption now as long as you don’t get out of control or start your old habits again. As others have noted this is really a tempest in a teapot. The number of routes is really quite small and the impact not as great as is suggested by the volume of the argument. Think about it, these new bolts are just now getting noticed? Here are just a few more comments Pope will be agreeing with sometime next year: Rap placement or on lead placement it makes no difference. There is simply nothing edifying inherent in a particular style of climbing. The result that should be evaluated is not the subjective experience of the FA party but rather the physical nature of the route. For example, Is it over/under protected? Are the bolts placed in the best positions? Given a diminishing resource is it fair for someone to put up a poorly bolted route just because he is first? Because he was on lead? I say no. The question has never been the sport way or the trad way. It is, as I have repeatedly stated ,the sharing of a limited resource by a diverse group of people. EVERYONE must give. No group is better or more deserving than another. I have climbed both trad and sport my hardest traditional lead was in fact harder than Pope’s hardest sport lead. I have climbed risky routes and super safe routes. What routes stick in my ? Oddly neither the risky nor the hard ones. I seem to remember the fun ones. Fun isn’t define by a number or a grade or a style it just is. All this stupid fighting and insults over the past year have done nothing but suck the fun out of climbing. Rather than sling unfair insults why not just start out and assume that even the guy doing something you hate is acting with the best of intentions. PP

Maybe I'll show up, if you can send the short bus and the men in white suits. and Fred promises to grope me, and grab my ass!!!

or hold them down and pee on them.

Yeah!! Girl Power!!!

Have you tried Viktor Kramar's Leavenworth Guide?

Ok Enough with the large group psuedo analysis. Has anyone ever thought what if the Mounties limited them selves to groups of n. (where n is some arbitrarily number stated by an "anti-mountie") Would we be overwhelmed by small groups every day of the year? What size is the optimal size? Let's have a real analysis of the situation. We have a man who dedicated his life to math (Pope) and a self described "Math Geek" ChucK. Couldn't a quick and dirty mathematical model be created to solve this sticky problem?

During a recent trip I swore off CC.com but like a drunkard to the bottle I keep returning. Long time denizens of the site will know that Dwayner and I disagree over many things. However where others have see active ill will, and others see a paragon of virtue, I choose to see a rose about to bloom in the midst of the miasma. Surely a man who sings on about the beauty of a trashed van will soon, unless the cognitive dissonance is too overwhelming, admit to the beauty of the bolt. I say spread your wings and fly to the gym. A great evening of indoor bouldering awaits! BTW – Real old-timers remember the old parking lot! BBTW – I have these cool “fake coke labels” so we can drink beer as we boulder! PP

I have to agree with the A-Dog an that one. Ramuta's redid my shoes and they are even better than they were new, and my rands were toast, and Ramuta's fixed those too! In short, they rock.

Gotta call BS on that one Special. Being rude on here is even worse than in real life.

Bringing it all home – Pictures I have seen of Index (eg old Beckey guide, Index Museum) show much less plant life on the cliffs. If you look at the new Squamish guide there is a an old picture I think from the 20s of the Chief. The lack of trees and plants on the cliff compared to the present is remarkable. PP

wow, good call Jon, can I get in on the swag fest?

gotta mix threads for a second, in the rei post replace rei with castle super store, it's sorta funny... well not that funny...

Are you sure it's not: www.imafuckinglittlepussythatcantstandyouhippiessmokinthekind.weed

I didn't get a chance to post....Why the closure of this thread and not the Mountaineers thread?

Actually, most sherpa must take the basic climbing course. As well as be fluent with Marth Stewart's "Cooking for High Altitude, It's a Good Thing" and "Tea: The Life Giving Elixor." Mountaineers course can be substituted with a Mazamas course, or by reading "Siege Style Tactics for Dummies."

DIE YUPPIE SCUM!!!!

The mountaineers publish some good books, that otherwise might not have been published. For example, guidebooks. I think that some of the membership fee goes to that.(or at least it should).

I think that running up and down Si in plastic boots is the way to go!

must. find. new. place. can't climb. bike ride. sleep. work(a little).

Ray, I'll pay the postage on that bad boy! and buy you many beers...