Peter_Puget

Just a quick reminder guys: whenever you say you want to regulate something through government control what you are really saying is that you want to use the police power of the state (ie the gun!) to make people do something they do not want to do. Also look at those areas with significant governmental control of economic resources and you’ll find the most destroyed environment. The textbook example is the old “Eastern Block” and the Soviet Union. The Modern economy failed us? Look around large areas set aside for wilderness preservation, our ability to go on extended climbing trips, our ability to even get to the crags, our long and healthy lives? There are lots of examples of “pre-capitalist” societies screwing up their environment. The world is always full of uncertainty, unmet expectation, unforeseen problems, looming challenges but our modern economy is the best one to deal successfully with them. PPFree Minds & Free Markets NB – The CC.com posters here in NA have more in common with Ken Lay in terms of wealth than they do someone working in a sweatshop in Indonesia.

I believe that the distance Kathy is refering to is a minimun distance. If the bolts are closer than this there is the potential for anchor failure at an load for less than if the bolts were placed beyond this distance. Of course many variables come into play. Are bolts ever placed this close? Not often but I have seen it. I am not sure how this issue relates only to Fixes bolts tho. "Nonstandard" testing while possibly producing encouraging results is nothing I would want used as a basis for setting up a long term anchor. The additional cost of doing it right is so small that it boggles my mind that anyone would do otherwise. PP

quote: Originally posted by pope: Peter, this could be arranged. My guide's fee is a bargain at $250 per diem. You would not be allowed to refer to me as your "partner", although you could call me your "climbing partner". Pope – Don’t worry I’ll do all the leading so we won’t need to use your guide and thus we would avoid what seems to me to be his terribly excessive fees. Do you always climb with him? I must warn you that I have never been attracted to men but since you seem so sure that I’ll like your ass, I will approach it with an open mind – just don’t get your hopes up.

Dru – I was being somewhat serious in my original post. Down here in the States it was just Martin Luther King day, so I have been thinking about people wi th disparate viewpoints coming together. As I have said before, I have a dream where all climbers climb together in peace and harmony. No silly divisions. Isn’t there some saying about arguments having to be so vitriolic because the are over so little? Just a couple weeks ago Mattp was nominated for Poster of the week. He is a steadfast believer in joining together. This week’s nominee, Dwayner, is well known for his quote, “Where is the Aloha.” I am willing to bet that if Pope and I did go to Vantage we would burn the place up and not only from the heat of our debate. Better than any Pub Club is a day on the rocks!

Fixed anchors on popular routes should:- Be simple- Be field maintainable- Be of easily ascertainable design- Be bomber- Be inconspicuous if possible If they are bolts I think that they should not be of too new ( not time tested) or of home spun design. For example about 15-20 years ago Taper bolts were the rage. It was soon discovered that these were dangerous and they fell out of fashion. Washer/chain systems in place on many Si/38 routes are an example bad home spun design. Another example is the old Metolius cable anchor. These were a terrible design by an otherwise fine company. A Fixe with the integral ring are nice now but on a popular route how fast will the ring wear out? A better solution in my book is a short length of chain attached to a regular hanger via a quick link. Think of painting the whole mess so it will not have too big of a visual impact. If you are replacing a bolt don’t even consider anything less than 3/8” 1/2” SS is even better esp. if you are using a rotohammer. Once you start messing with an anchor be prepared to replace a whole new one. Even if you don’t intend to, you might have to due to unforeseen circumstances.

Sometimes the gulf between our fantasy and our mundane existence is simply too far.... I am glad I left out the part about the goodbye kiss tho! PP

After running over all the possibilities my “perfect” climbing would start with an early morning drive over the pass through a torrential downpour. As we descend into the Columbia drainage the stunning sunrise sets our heart a pounding as we anticipate the cranking ahead. We climb all day. Old nemeses fall like cordwood. New problems are vanquished before they appear. Lambone is overhead commenting, “man those cats would rule the gym” as he passes by. On the drive home we recount the day’s adventures, the envious look of other climbers, the lustful stares of the young girls. Dropping my partner off at his house he asks if we are going back next week and I reply, “Sure Pope. Another Vantage weekend it is!” On the drive home I can hardly wait for the weekend to arrive.

That bricklayer hammer looks kinda cool. One thing I'd be worried about tho is the length of the pick(?). I use to climb alot with an old Chouinard Alpine hammer and the long pick was always getting tangled in stuff. I wonder how hard it would be to shorten the bricklayer. If I couldn't shorten it I am sure that the ensuing tangles would drive me batty. Anyone have any ideas on what the best way to shorten it would be? By the way after deciding that I never wanted to climbed another ice or mixed route I started using the pick end of the Alpine hammer as a cleaning tool and wore it down to a fair approximation of the Piton hammer shape. PP

It’s easy to replace wood handles. I have an old Chouinard head in my garage ready for a new handle right now. When its handle was last replaced it lasted several walls with extensive nailing only to break when I was using it as a pry bar. I think the advantages of a real piton hammer head are well worth the additional cost especially given that $50.00 more won’t seem so much up after a couple walls. When I have had wood handles break they have always loosened over time or split in such a way as to not loose the head. Now I always bring a spare along for the ride. If you ever see one of those discontinued Chouinard blue handled hammers for sale stay away. I was belaying a friend on a FA and as he was placing a bolt at the belay he noticed the head slowly detaching. It blew off before the bolt was placed. Now get this: he took it (the handle) back and complained and they said something to the effect that they knew there was a design problem with them and they were going back to wood handles. The sad part is the were still offering them for sale!

Pope – They absolutely can be. For example the longest fall I have taken in the last 12 years was a botched clipped to a fixed draw at Little Si. If I was TRing I would have just cruised by the spot no need to stop and clip. By the way months ago I suggested that one thing that can be done to help reduce sport bolting was to encourage TRS as an valid means of FA. I was surprised that most responses to this idea were negative. Some of these responses were by member of the CC.com anti-bolt contingent. Would this help? Who knows for sure but since many claim that the vanity is one of the main drivers of sport bolters it might. It would surely discourage the addition of bolts at places like the Fun Forest where bolts were added to existing TRs. Do too many draws insult my intelligence? No, but maybe my aesthetic sense. Chuck – I was thinking of that Star Trek thing the other day! I want it.

I am merely suggesting that the mental aspect of climbing is more than just fear. In fact on most “trad” routes I have very little fear at all. The mental stamina required to do a long series of difficult moves is very hard to come by. This is true whether you are climbing trad, sport or top rope. Indeed the mental concentration required to do a single power move can also be great. Just ask any power lifter. In general to the extent on aspect of climbing is emphasized on a route it is at the expense of the others. A person is under no obligation to like all aspects equally, so to expect a particular climbing experience to be equally rewarding to all is absurd.

Will - Having both climbed and participated in gymnastics I can say that in my experience many parts of a routine are very scary and have the potential for injury. True it doesn't happen much but the same can be said for free soloing.

I think Jay is right in suggesting that the the argument over bolting overstates the actual problem. But would liek to add that the solution of the problem is through friendly constructive engagement. I do have to add a comment to those who say that sport climbing reduces climbing to a merely physical endeavor. That is tantamount to saying that for example, gymnastics, has only and physical component. Ask any gymnast if there is a mental component and I am sure the response will be hell yes! PP

Hey, that's what I was going to say but then thought I was misunderstanding him!

Not sure when you left the area but some of the areas east of Mt Vernon have been visited with greater frequency than in the past and some new sport areas have also sprung up.

Chuck and Pope - The way you two write I almost get the impression that you're suggesting something is amiss!

As someone else said: "There are no hard problems in Washington."

I have an old (1974-5) chest harness that I still use if I have a bunch of steep fixed ropes to jug. I also have a few hexes from the same period that I bring out on occasion.

W - In some ways your post is well taken in some ways it shows a certain contempt for the site. A few years ago I was driving with someone mentioned in a recent thread as one of the "legends" and discussed equipment for of all places Patagonia. Someplace he has been several times. To my knowledge Wallstien does not know him personally I can easily imagine a web site where a person like Wallstien could post on here about his current trip and a "big name" might respond with a useful bit of info. About ten years ago I called up out of the blue a person well known for FAs in Zion. A week later I recieved a pile of topos in the mail. Would he participate in some imaginable website? I think so.

W – Quote:” let's not assume in totality they think they are either "too cool" to participate, or "driven away" by the spray thugs”Well I agree with that and never suggested [insert edit:we should assume] it either. A few stories regarding shit does not always equal bad. Pictures posted of shit next to toilets pretty much = bad. I never suggested that everyone should come here but given Jon’s experience, mine and others it is clear that many would like to participate and choose not to because of some of the drivel. Word up - whether it attracts or drives people away, it is just flat out inappropriate to slam people over real or imagined infidelities. Saying people don’t post here because it is “their own choice” or are “just flat out aren't interested” is a meaningless tautology. [ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Jon – Your comments are well taken. I hope that the group learns to moderate itself. W – By Low-brow I didn’t mean a discussion of easy routes and such but threads about shitting and so for. As far as decrying something - I unabashedly decry threads like that. Do I decry threads like the one concerning North Face presenter? Yes. Many of the posts were terribly insulting and just plain nasty. To the extent we do not speak out against such behavior regardless of its impact on the site we are letting ourselves, and in my opinion, Jon down as well. Many including yourself have concluded that this behavior drives away many. It matters not whether they are great or not. Their absence detracts from this site.

W- Are you saying that it is infact the low brow and often meanspirited nature of the site itself which repells high energy climbers? PP

Please go back and read the original thread! The term used was "on-site" meaning he actually climbed it v. sprayed about the route, read the guidebook while watchng TV, saw a slide show about the route.

One the drive home from work after the “evil corporate world” thread started I listened to a story on NPR about high price perfumes. Seems that all the craft has gone out of making them. The life cycle of fragrances has shortened dramatically with new products being added yearly and sometimes monthly. The number of competitors has dropped precipitously as the old small scale high price producers have been bought out/driven out by the big boys. The result was called “High Price Mass Marketing.” Sound familiar?

Over the years I have had several crack machines in a series of garages and found that they weren’t so great for technique training but they were pretty good at training for endurance. One crack went up the side of my parents’ garage across the ceiling (three car widths) and down the other side. After a while I gave up on the long cracks you could really “climb” and concentrated on short cracks used as pull-up bars. For me these short cracks were FAR superior to the long ones. I even made several cracks suitable for Lat Pull machines. These turned out to be a total waste of time. PP