Peter_Puget

Quote from Zenolith: “A professor of economics at the University of NewHampshire, Marc Herold, has done a far more thorough survey of thepress than I have. He lists location, type of weapon used and sourcesof information. He finds the civilian death toll in Afghanistan up toDecember 10 exceeding 3,500 (he has since raised the figure to 4,000),a sad and startling parallel to the number of victims in the twintowers.” Oddly, Prof. Herold has in fact lowered his estimate and recent estimates are coming in as low as 700. Some of these estimates are from NG aid organizations. PP

Wazzup WS? Your analytic powers never cease amaze me. Look at the times of our posts. Jeez, you be a goof ball. When we talk about ratings we need to know what we mean. As has been mentioned working load ratings are/can be very different than failure point. Second “ratings” are always very specific and can be misleading if used as the sole criteria for selecting or determining which product to use. This is true of a wide variety of things. For example the so called “expectations gap” between the function of a audit of finacial statements and the public’s perceived understanding. Think of UL labels or the electric code. Also a rating doesn’t necessarily say anything about how the equipment will weather/age. Its ability to withstand abuse. For example, I think I’d prefer a non-SS bolt over a SS bolt when it’s only a day old but after a few years give me the SS., Add to this the fact that in the field an object’s “rate status” often cannot be determined. (Sidebar: if you checked out the Nate Beckworth link W posted and read any of his TRs you’d see that he bought the wrong bolts for rivets. Not slamming him by any means but showing that even very experienced climbers can make errors) A good anchor design takes all of these factors into account.

So if the one from my hardware store says working load 500# thats rated?

Exactly what does "rated" mean?

If, for a while, the ruse of desire is calculable for the uses of discipline soon the repetition of guilt, justification, pseudo-scientific theories, superstition, spurious authorities and classifications can be seen as the desperate effort to "normalize" formally the disturbance of a discourse of splitting that violates the rational, enlightened claims of its enunciatory modality. I think I just put the nail in that coffin.

Dwayner - I feel compelled to correct you. A hardened alpinist doesn't place pro! BTW what pro were anticipating a hardened alpinist using? And don't say tube chock.

Dwayner - Think of it as modern poetry with a touch of French.

What I know of "alpinism" I learned from this BB. http://www.hawaii.volcanoes.national-park.com/wwwboard/hawachat.htm It's the only BB that matters. The rest is just chatter. PP

Chatter chatter chatter Check out this link & look up Derek Bailey: www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi Something worth reading!

Hey! Yesterday Pope and I exchanged pleasantries. Today Dwayner made a great coupel of posts to this thread. There is hope for this world. All you naysayers jump on in the waters fine! PP

Just a quick reminder guys: whenever you say you want to regulate something through government control what you are really saying is that you want to use the police power of the state (ie the gun!) to make people do something they do not want to do. Also look at those areas with significant governmental control of economic resources and you’ll find the most destroyed environment. The textbook example is the old “Eastern Block” and the Soviet Union. The Modern economy failed us? Look around large areas set aside for wilderness preservation, our ability to go on extended climbing trips, our ability to even get to the crags, our long and healthy lives? There are lots of examples of “pre-capitalist” societies screwing up their environment. The world is always full of uncertainty, unmet expectation, unforeseen problems, looming challenges but our modern economy is the best one to deal successfully with them. PPFree Minds & Free Markets NB – The CC.com posters here in NA have more in common with Ken Lay in terms of wealth than they do someone working in a sweatshop in Indonesia.

I believe that the distance Kathy is refering to is a minimun distance. If the bolts are closer than this there is the potential for anchor failure at an load for less than if the bolts were placed beyond this distance. Of course many variables come into play. Are bolts ever placed this close? Not often but I have seen it. I am not sure how this issue relates only to Fixes bolts tho. "Nonstandard" testing while possibly producing encouraging results is nothing I would want used as a basis for setting up a long term anchor. The additional cost of doing it right is so small that it boggles my mind that anyone would do otherwise. PP

quote: Originally posted by pope: Peter, this could be arranged. My guide's fee is a bargain at $250 per diem. You would not be allowed to refer to me as your "partner", although you could call me your "climbing partner". Pope – Don’t worry I’ll do all the leading so we won’t need to use your guide and thus we would avoid what seems to me to be his terribly excessive fees. Do you always climb with him? I must warn you that I have never been attracted to men but since you seem so sure that I’ll like your ass, I will approach it with an open mind – just don’t get your hopes up.

Dru – I was being somewhat serious in my original post. Down here in the States it was just Martin Luther King day, so I have been thinking about people wi th disparate viewpoints coming together. As I have said before, I have a dream where all climbers climb together in peace and harmony. No silly divisions. Isn’t there some saying about arguments having to be so vitriolic because the are over so little? Just a couple weeks ago Mattp was nominated for Poster of the week. He is a steadfast believer in joining together. This week’s nominee, Dwayner, is well known for his quote, “Where is the Aloha.” I am willing to bet that if Pope and I did go to Vantage we would burn the place up and not only from the heat of our debate. Better than any Pub Club is a day on the rocks!

Fixed anchors on popular routes should:- Be simple- Be field maintainable- Be of easily ascertainable design- Be bomber- Be inconspicuous if possible If they are bolts I think that they should not be of too new ( not time tested) or of home spun design. For example about 15-20 years ago Taper bolts were the rage. It was soon discovered that these were dangerous and they fell out of fashion. Washer/chain systems in place on many Si/38 routes are an example bad home spun design. Another example is the old Metolius cable anchor. These were a terrible design by an otherwise fine company. A Fixe with the integral ring are nice now but on a popular route how fast will the ring wear out? A better solution in my book is a short length of chain attached to a regular hanger via a quick link. Think of painting the whole mess so it will not have too big of a visual impact. If you are replacing a bolt don’t even consider anything less than 3/8” 1/2” SS is even better esp. if you are using a rotohammer. Once you start messing with an anchor be prepared to replace a whole new one. Even if you don’t intend to, you might have to due to unforeseen circumstances.

Sometimes the gulf between our fantasy and our mundane existence is simply too far.... I am glad I left out the part about the goodbye kiss tho! PP

After running over all the possibilities my “perfect” climbing would start with an early morning drive over the pass through a torrential downpour. As we descend into the Columbia drainage the stunning sunrise sets our heart a pounding as we anticipate the cranking ahead. We climb all day. Old nemeses fall like cordwood. New problems are vanquished before they appear. Lambone is overhead commenting, “man those cats would rule the gym” as he passes by. On the drive home we recount the day’s adventures, the envious look of other climbers, the lustful stares of the young girls. Dropping my partner off at his house he asks if we are going back next week and I reply, “Sure Pope. Another Vantage weekend it is!” On the drive home I can hardly wait for the weekend to arrive.

That bricklayer hammer looks kinda cool. One thing I'd be worried about tho is the length of the pick(?). I use to climb alot with an old Chouinard Alpine hammer and the long pick was always getting tangled in stuff. I wonder how hard it would be to shorten the bricklayer. If I couldn't shorten it I am sure that the ensuing tangles would drive me batty. Anyone have any ideas on what the best way to shorten it would be? By the way after deciding that I never wanted to climbed another ice or mixed route I started using the pick end of the Alpine hammer as a cleaning tool and wore it down to a fair approximation of the Piton hammer shape. PP

It’s easy to replace wood handles. I have an old Chouinard head in my garage ready for a new handle right now. When its handle was last replaced it lasted several walls with extensive nailing only to break when I was using it as a pry bar. I think the advantages of a real piton hammer head are well worth the additional cost especially given that $50.00 more won’t seem so much up after a couple walls. When I have had wood handles break they have always loosened over time or split in such a way as to not loose the head. Now I always bring a spare along for the ride. If you ever see one of those discontinued Chouinard blue handled hammers for sale stay away. I was belaying a friend on a FA and as he was placing a bolt at the belay he noticed the head slowly detaching. It blew off before the bolt was placed. Now get this: he took it (the handle) back and complained and they said something to the effect that they knew there was a design problem with them and they were going back to wood handles. The sad part is the were still offering them for sale!

Pope – They absolutely can be. For example the longest fall I have taken in the last 12 years was a botched clipped to a fixed draw at Little Si. If I was TRing I would have just cruised by the spot no need to stop and clip. By the way months ago I suggested that one thing that can be done to help reduce sport bolting was to encourage TRS as an valid means of FA. I was surprised that most responses to this idea were negative. Some of these responses were by member of the CC.com anti-bolt contingent. Would this help? Who knows for sure but since many claim that the vanity is one of the main drivers of sport bolters it might. It would surely discourage the addition of bolts at places like the Fun Forest where bolts were added to existing TRs. Do too many draws insult my intelligence? No, but maybe my aesthetic sense. Chuck – I was thinking of that Star Trek thing the other day! I want it.

I am merely suggesting that the mental aspect of climbing is more than just fear. In fact on most “trad” routes I have very little fear at all. The mental stamina required to do a long series of difficult moves is very hard to come by. This is true whether you are climbing trad, sport or top rope. Indeed the mental concentration required to do a single power move can also be great. Just ask any power lifter. In general to the extent on aspect of climbing is emphasized on a route it is at the expense of the others. A person is under no obligation to like all aspects equally, so to expect a particular climbing experience to be equally rewarding to all is absurd.

Will - Having both climbed and participated in gymnastics I can say that in my experience many parts of a routine are very scary and have the potential for injury. True it doesn't happen much but the same can be said for free soloing.

I think Jay is right in suggesting that the the argument over bolting overstates the actual problem. But would liek to add that the solution of the problem is through friendly constructive engagement. I do have to add a comment to those who say that sport climbing reduces climbing to a merely physical endeavor. That is tantamount to saying that for example, gymnastics, has only and physical component. Ask any gymnast if there is a mental component and I am sure the response will be hell yes! PP

Hey, that's what I was going to say but then thought I was misunderstanding him!

Not sure when you left the area but some of the areas east of Mt Vernon have been visited with greater frequency than in the past and some new sport areas have also sprung up.