Peter_Puget

Not quite mountaineering but still a good read. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0933686005/avsearch-bkasin-20/104-9360876-7887149

W said: “In short, we have to equal or better the pressure put upon on those making these decisions, to that of the groups in favor of development and unrestrained access. And, increase our communication and therefore our ability to compromise with such groups- we all have to share. If regard for all is shown, mutual regard will be returned to us.” Truer words have hardly been spoken. This is true regardless of the specific issue at hand. Constructive engagement and the rare and difficult ability to see that in what ultimately becomes a set of competing arbitrary values everybody can be a good guy (or gal) despite what values they champion are what make the common wealth work.

Thanks Duchess. Here is the link for everyone: http://www.nps.gov/planning/mora/finalgmp/home.htm

JT has a bunch of grain fests. Whoever mentioned that Vogel’s star system was not always accurate was right on the money. Maybe if you state some preferences you would get better feedback. Here goes my off the short list of enjoyable 5.10 routes: (all 5.10) Dance of The Woo Li Masters, Black President, Desert Song ( first pitch only - second pitch is a bit scarier and harder but the quality climbing is short so it is not worth the effort), Rubicon, Coarse & Buggy (can’t remember if this is 11 or 10), EBGBs a bit scary on top if you aren't dialed into the faces, Exorcist, Decompensator of Lhasa (I seem to be the only to like this guy) Best advice anyone can give is go hiking in the Wonderland! If the weather sucks, Indian Cove often has better weather but the rock is much more decomposed.

Mike - How can we get a copy of "Mount Rainier’s recently released General Management Plan" Why don't you ask Jon or Tim to post a copy here on this site? Without it, it seems, our opinions will be simply chatter.

Putting the route into the rating “equivolator” results in the following output: At Index 5.7+ – Short people may find the second pitch to be the crux. At Squamish 5.10a - The first pitch has a sting in its tail. Well worth the effort expended. At 38/Si S11 (.10b) – One of the top five crack pitches in Washington. Second pitch is a giant step into bigness. At Vantage 5.10a/b– Popular. At Yakima 5.7 – Start in the first corner left of ______.

Dwayner – My dear friend you have made a very common error. It is not “meat gaze” but “meet gays” You have inverted the double entendre. I mention this only to set the record straight. Serious Big Wall Beta - A female friend of mine who has soled several grade VIs did note that urinary tract infection is a much greater threat to women than men. Once she admitted that she bailed from a solo adventure due to such an infection and let all the guys think she just psyched out because she was too embarrassed to admit the real reason.

OK, I hesitate to even put this story to print. The names have been suppressed to protect those involved. Many many years ago, a climber had a lease on some warehouse space and to make a few extra bucks he would rent it out to various groups for party purposes. Of course along with the warehouse came a collection of low brow climbing types. (namely: his friends) Well at one particular party a short cute blonde caught an unnamed climber’s eye. After several hours of flirting he was psyched! Fortunately the low brow climbers were of both sexes and an alert female caught on to the fact that the cute blonde was a girl with “something extra.” After some debate the male climbers were only partially convinced and our paramour climber could not be persuaded until the cute blonde could hold her bladder no longer and was caught red handed, so to speak, urinating standing up with her piss stream a yellow arc extending several feet before her.

Not really responsive to the intial question but..the Pinnacles Rock! I first was exposed to rock climbing there in the 60's as a kid with my dad. I would suggest looking up Clint Cummin's site on the Pinnacles routes. Maybe even asking him about good TR spots. Great hiking there too. It isn't all that close to Fresno is it?

Pope - Why haven't you tried this for those sportos: http://salon.com/people/wire/2002/02/19/pope/index.html

Although I clearly think that Dwayners views on bolting are {insert derogatory comments of your choice here], after reading this - see quote below - on Salon.com, I feel his advice on the subject matter of this thread might be worthwhile. "If men should find a lesson here, perhaps it is to consider the seductive possibilities of an archeology career. "Dxxxx is the kind of guy who has an infectious passion for his work," sighs Sharon, also an American. "Who wouldn't want to spend an hour in an Egyptian tomb listening to that soft, sensitive voice explaining the technicalities of hieroglyphs? There is something uniquely attractive about a man so absorbed in discovery. Plus I suppose also there is the thought of what it might be like to be the focus of that intensity." [ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Yup guys:Bush what a fool. But what do you call those foolish enough to be ruled by him? Perhaps it's best to consider him an evil genius.

Back in the days of EBs I was climbing Misty Beethoven (Glacier Point Apron) and while belaying my partner up the second pitch he took several long “falls.” Each time he simply would slide down the rock on all fours and then would stick his but out in the air and literally come “squeaking” to a stop. He was convinced that hearing the squeak was indicative of a good smear. I don't think modern rubber ha sth esame squeak.

Dwayner – Although my “post modern” post sometime ago was rather smug, my posts today have been absolutely serious. Thanks for eschewing my oblique strategies and plainly stating the truth.

Ok I'll say 1,300. BTW that's alot closer to 700 than 3,500. My question is how do we judge the correct amount and does the amount matter at all? Are the high estimates just self serving BS and if not, how can we tell. How do you pick your data points to present? What standard are we holding the numbers up against? A scalar is meaningless in terms of logical argumentation although we may not be able to stop some emotional impact. How does a series of reports showing a number (small by the way I take that as indicative of the restraint of the US)of personal harm help me to decide sanything relative to the the current conflict. I already have no trouble imagining the sadness some must feel and the tragedy of lost life. Without a context I am left feeling that logic is being purposely avoided and my emotions tapped into as a cheap replacement.

Quote from Zenolith: “A professor of economics at the University of NewHampshire, Marc Herold, has done a far more thorough survey of thepress than I have. He lists location, type of weapon used and sourcesof information. He finds the civilian death toll in Afghanistan up toDecember 10 exceeding 3,500 (he has since raised the figure to 4,000),a sad and startling parallel to the number of victims in the twintowers.” Oddly, Prof. Herold has in fact lowered his estimate and recent estimates are coming in as low as 700. Some of these estimates are from NG aid organizations. PP

Wazzup WS? Your analytic powers never cease amaze me. Look at the times of our posts. Jeez, you be a goof ball. When we talk about ratings we need to know what we mean. As has been mentioned working load ratings are/can be very different than failure point. Second “ratings” are always very specific and can be misleading if used as the sole criteria for selecting or determining which product to use. This is true of a wide variety of things. For example the so called “expectations gap” between the function of a audit of finacial statements and the public’s perceived understanding. Think of UL labels or the electric code. Also a rating doesn’t necessarily say anything about how the equipment will weather/age. Its ability to withstand abuse. For example, I think I’d prefer a non-SS bolt over a SS bolt when it’s only a day old but after a few years give me the SS., Add to this the fact that in the field an object’s “rate status” often cannot be determined. (Sidebar: if you checked out the Nate Beckworth link W posted and read any of his TRs you’d see that he bought the wrong bolts for rivets. Not slamming him by any means but showing that even very experienced climbers can make errors) A good anchor design takes all of these factors into account.

So if the one from my hardware store says working load 500# thats rated?

Exactly what does "rated" mean?

If, for a while, the ruse of desire is calculable for the uses of discipline soon the repetition of guilt, justification, pseudo-scientific theories, superstition, spurious authorities and classifications can be seen as the desperate effort to "normalize" formally the disturbance of a discourse of splitting that violates the rational, enlightened claims of its enunciatory modality. I think I just put the nail in that coffin.

Dwayner - I feel compelled to correct you. A hardened alpinist doesn't place pro! BTW what pro were anticipating a hardened alpinist using? And don't say tube chock.

Dwayner - Think of it as modern poetry with a touch of French.

What I know of "alpinism" I learned from this BB. http://www.hawaii.volcanoes.national-park.com/wwwboard/hawachat.htm It's the only BB that matters. The rest is just chatter. PP

Chatter chatter chatter Check out this link & look up Derek Bailey: www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi Something worth reading!

Hey! Yesterday Pope and I exchanged pleasantries. Today Dwayner made a great coupel of posts to this thread. There is hope for this world. All you naysayers jump on in the waters fine! PP