Peter_Puget

quote: Originally posted by Retrosaurus: Peter,Are you a politician? Sure talk like one. Just whose dick are you sucking? [ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: Retrosaurus ] Wow! You edited and ended up with that? What a genius. Don't worry your CC buddies understand how difficult it is to find the correct lithium level! Hang in there and remember even tho you feel better you must still take your meds or else those voices will come back.

Glad I could get you to see the error of your ways. Although I think I have created a monster! What is missing from your discourse is common sense. Did you forget your meds?

I agree there might be a hidden agenda. But even so, Retro’s thoughts strike me as nothing than his usual selfish thoughts. His main motivation seems to reduce “others” ability to easily access an area that he has quick and easy access to. Let’s say you drove from Bremerton, Portland or BC - a few miles can easily change the viability of a weekend trip dramatically. Retro of course agrees with this. Hopefully whatever the NPS’ motivations they will not be nearly as self serving as Retro’s. If each choice is always analyzed by how it impacts me directly and in isolation, we will all wake up someday in some place we’d never imagined. Then when we say “how did we get here” it’ll too late..

Fred - I'll second the recomend for Northoverhang. I would use the Overhang Bypass start and then join Northoverhang for its final crack. It is if I remember correctly an 5.9 handcrack with lots of exposure. PP

Erik - I am not trying to use "big" words. I think biggest enemy is my lack of typing skills. Rereading my big word post is see that I left out some important ones by mistake!

Yeow! Erik be nice!

I agree Gregm. My thought is that for the manufacturer the marginal cost of the additonal rope is approaching the inconsequential but since they can charge more than an inconsequential amount fo rthe additinal rope its merely a way to increase their bottom line. Stop the insanity is right!

Back to the original subject matter. If the west side access is not replaced/repaired, I think that in the spirit of its undeveloped status that all guiding should be prohibited as well in that area. [ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Given: Mt Rainier is a unique and fragile environment. That is to say there are no substitute goods available.Given: Constant funding crisis in NP system Given: Several “developed” options for exploring Mt. Rainier exist.Given: A significant group of people enjoy exploring/experiencing undeveloped areas. By not developing the westside road people who wish can experience a semi wild area that otherwise would not be available to anyone. (at least a s asemi wild area) While this undeveloped status would in fact make it unlikely to impossible for many to enjoy the area, they have several other options for exploring the Park. Many of these options may be enhanced due to resources previously spent on the West Side access being redirected to the remaining developed areas. Additionally, the undeveloped westside will serve as a wildlife “incubator” whose spillover effect will enhance visitor’s experience throughout the park. For climbing, Mt Rainier will still offer weekend climbs but also offer the exclusive (at least in the contiguous states) opportunity of mini-expeditions where climbers can have week long trip in relative solitude in a heavily glaciated eniviroment. Try doing that in CA or Colorado! I should say that climbing Rainier is of almost zero interest to me.

W- Your earlier comments now strike me as a veneer of civility betrayed by your attack on FW. An attack extended to the point of goofiness that you brought in the West Bank conflict. So much for mutual respect. I say just come out and attack; the pretense of civility is wearing poorly. Honestly I think that a west side isn’t such a bad idea but I am willing to say “hey why not leave one sector of the park relatively undeveloped.” The fact that you value such a outcome is important to me only in so far as you hold it. I completely disagree with much of your thought process yet the fact of my disagreement does not enter into my calculation with regard to west side road. The fact that I believe you honestly highly value the effects of “no road” is enough. Whether you value it because of some sense of spirituality or because of some malignant misanthropy matters not. I say if you want to ruminate over a fuzzy subject think about what number of people must hold an opinion before those holding a different one must compromise. For example let say there were two groups one development the other antidevelopment. If the ratio between the two was 50-50 we’d all agree compromise was fair what if the relative positions change At what point do compromise not have to be made. I say providing heartfelt guidance on this question rather than making references to a spiritual plane will prove far more helpful in the long run.

Not quite mountaineering but still a good read. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0933686005/avsearch-bkasin-20/104-9360876-7887149

W said: “In short, we have to equal or better the pressure put upon on those making these decisions, to that of the groups in favor of development and unrestrained access. And, increase our communication and therefore our ability to compromise with such groups- we all have to share. If regard for all is shown, mutual regard will be returned to us.” Truer words have hardly been spoken. This is true regardless of the specific issue at hand. Constructive engagement and the rare and difficult ability to see that in what ultimately becomes a set of competing arbitrary values everybody can be a good guy (or gal) despite what values they champion are what make the common wealth work.

Thanks Duchess. Here is the link for everyone: http://www.nps.gov/planning/mora/finalgmp/home.htm

JT has a bunch of grain fests. Whoever mentioned that Vogel’s star system was not always accurate was right on the money. Maybe if you state some preferences you would get better feedback. Here goes my off the short list of enjoyable 5.10 routes: (all 5.10) Dance of The Woo Li Masters, Black President, Desert Song ( first pitch only - second pitch is a bit scarier and harder but the quality climbing is short so it is not worth the effort), Rubicon, Coarse & Buggy (can’t remember if this is 11 or 10), EBGBs a bit scary on top if you aren't dialed into the faces, Exorcist, Decompensator of Lhasa (I seem to be the only to like this guy) Best advice anyone can give is go hiking in the Wonderland! If the weather sucks, Indian Cove often has better weather but the rock is much more decomposed.

Mike - How can we get a copy of "Mount Rainier’s recently released General Management Plan" Why don't you ask Jon or Tim to post a copy here on this site? Without it, it seems, our opinions will be simply chatter.

Putting the route into the rating “equivolator” results in the following output: At Index 5.7+ – Short people may find the second pitch to be the crux. At Squamish 5.10a - The first pitch has a sting in its tail. Well worth the effort expended. At 38/Si S11 (.10b) – One of the top five crack pitches in Washington. Second pitch is a giant step into bigness. At Vantage 5.10a/b– Popular. At Yakima 5.7 – Start in the first corner left of ______.

Dwayner – My dear friend you have made a very common error. It is not “meat gaze” but “meet gays” You have inverted the double entendre. I mention this only to set the record straight. Serious Big Wall Beta - A female friend of mine who has soled several grade VIs did note that urinary tract infection is a much greater threat to women than men. Once she admitted that she bailed from a solo adventure due to such an infection and let all the guys think she just psyched out because she was too embarrassed to admit the real reason.

OK, I hesitate to even put this story to print. The names have been suppressed to protect those involved. Many many years ago, a climber had a lease on some warehouse space and to make a few extra bucks he would rent it out to various groups for party purposes. Of course along with the warehouse came a collection of low brow climbing types. (namely: his friends) Well at one particular party a short cute blonde caught an unnamed climber’s eye. After several hours of flirting he was psyched! Fortunately the low brow climbers were of both sexes and an alert female caught on to the fact that the cute blonde was a girl with “something extra.” After some debate the male climbers were only partially convinced and our paramour climber could not be persuaded until the cute blonde could hold her bladder no longer and was caught red handed, so to speak, urinating standing up with her piss stream a yellow arc extending several feet before her.

Not really responsive to the intial question but..the Pinnacles Rock! I first was exposed to rock climbing there in the 60's as a kid with my dad. I would suggest looking up Clint Cummin's site on the Pinnacles routes. Maybe even asking him about good TR spots. Great hiking there too. It isn't all that close to Fresno is it?

Pope - Why haven't you tried this for those sportos: http://salon.com/people/wire/2002/02/19/pope/index.html

Although I clearly think that Dwayners views on bolting are {insert derogatory comments of your choice here], after reading this - see quote below - on Salon.com, I feel his advice on the subject matter of this thread might be worthwhile. "If men should find a lesson here, perhaps it is to consider the seductive possibilities of an archeology career. "Dxxxx is the kind of guy who has an infectious passion for his work," sighs Sharon, also an American. "Who wouldn't want to spend an hour in an Egyptian tomb listening to that soft, sensitive voice explaining the technicalities of hieroglyphs? There is something uniquely attractive about a man so absorbed in discovery. Plus I suppose also there is the thought of what it might be like to be the focus of that intensity." [ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Yup guys:Bush what a fool. But what do you call those foolish enough to be ruled by him? Perhaps it's best to consider him an evil genius.

Back in the days of EBs I was climbing Misty Beethoven (Glacier Point Apron) and while belaying my partner up the second pitch he took several long “falls.” Each time he simply would slide down the rock on all fours and then would stick his but out in the air and literally come “squeaking” to a stop. He was convinced that hearing the squeak was indicative of a good smear. I don't think modern rubber ha sth esame squeak.

Dwayner – Although my “post modern” post sometime ago was rather smug, my posts today have been absolutely serious. Thanks for eschewing my oblique strategies and plainly stating the truth.

Ok I'll say 1,300. BTW that's alot closer to 700 than 3,500. My question is how do we judge the correct amount and does the amount matter at all? Are the high estimates just self serving BS and if not, how can we tell. How do you pick your data points to present? What standard are we holding the numbers up against? A scalar is meaningless in terms of logical argumentation although we may not be able to stop some emotional impact. How does a series of reports showing a number (small by the way I take that as indicative of the restraint of the US)of personal harm help me to decide sanything relative to the the current conflict. I already have no trouble imagining the sadness some must feel and the tragedy of lost life. Without a context I am left feeling that logic is being purposely avoided and my emotions tapped into as a cheap replacement.