Peter_Puget

or here: http://www.rescue-equip.com.au/REstandards.html

Thanks for clarifying what you meant I do see considerable ambiguity it what you first wrote but understand what you mean now. I agree that much bolting is overboard and oddly given the outcry actually quite limited in scope. By that I mean limited to a few somewhat restricted areas.You still did not answer how you would justify your actions (or acceptance of actions such as bolting a natural line) to those who think that the use of ropes and pitons is not pure? Expand the question to include those who feel all bolts are bad regardless of the purity of the line. For example, Pope has previously said all rap bolting is improper for him it is an impure eyesore. Shouldn’t he expect that all such impure routes be removed? If I accept your personal ideal that “what is consistent with my personal viewpoint defines purity” I think he should.How do you suggest the various often mutually exclusive aesthetic viewpoints be reconciled? By the way I think Chuck makes some very good points about the very high level of ambiguity involved here. By the way you can always modify my example of the boulderer and change it to a roped climber. Here is a concrete example. Bircheff-Williams route in the Valley. I have done it several times once using pure stemming at the crux, another trying to use the tiny finger jams, doing the wide section past the crux as a lieback, doing it as a trad wide crack. [ 03-27-2002: Message edited by: Peter Puget ] [ 03-27-2002: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

I sympathize with your conclusion but your reasoning drives me crazy. For example consider the following quote from your post: Quote:“The whole point of rock climbing is taking the challenge that nature presents you and solving it by 1) making yourself stronger and 2) finding the easiest way. Contrived climbs ignore 2) in order to train for 1)”. Imagine a boulderer who seeks contrived hard problems. He never trains to get stronger; doesn’t boulder enough to get stronger he simply tries to succeed at problems via better technique. I can see myself as such a character when I was studying hard and could get out very rarely. Quote:“Doing so ruins the experience of those who follow the purer form of rock climbing and ascend the natural line of weakness.” You practice a purer form of climbing? How do you judge purity? Years ago some climbers said essentially the same things about ropes and pitons? In their minds you are far from pure. How do you justify your actions in relation to their judgement? I should note that in a thread about a year ago Dwayner and Pope were cheering me on after my comments regarding bolting at 38/Si.

wow, God weather, aye. I'm an Agnostic.

Matt - Several times before I have suggested top ropes shpould be considered "real" routes and that they are the preferred alternative to over bolting. I would ask you how many times have you contacted or attempted to contact the people putting up these routes and told them of your viewpoint? What have their responses been?

Small rack to 3" maybe 3.5" Will be fine. The first 30' pitch has the most wide stuff. You don't need big stuff in the chimney which can be avoided. The chimney is the crux.

quote: Originally posted by pindude: I myself was once a young climbing goods salesman in the '80s, and still am close to the outdoor retailing world. Then, as today, salespeople--er, customer service people--are "cliniced" by the manufacturer's rep in a large group setting maybe for a couple hours every 6 months or so. They generally are not "factory trained," although if they are, they are lucky dogs. We were never offered Chouinard or BD factory-training, nor am I aware that it was offered to any of the individual employees working in other specialty shops. As far as factory is concerned, maybe a tour if we were in Ventura or SLC after the move, yes, but factory training, no. Suffice to say, the manufacturer spends precious little time teaching salespeople the culture of their company, nor can they afford to. Most of the customer service training of that man/woman or kid on the floor comes from the individual store's management, and the salesperson's own motivation. Regardless, there are always going to be good salespeople and bad salespeople. I think you got a bad one. Your example was not supportive of your argument because you equated the shop's poor salesperson with Yvon, which I think even he would take issue with. You should be able to distinguish between Yvon and his company, and a right- or wrong-headed salesperson on the floor of a retail shop. If I had gotten a second hammer with a separating head, I would have taken that back too and gotten another manufacturer's tool or my money back, which by all rights the store should have done for you. If not, then sometimes it is better to deal directly with the manufacturer to resolve CS issues. Thanks for letting me know you're here, and not really in Bath, England. You got one on me there. I guess Bath, England doesn't equal Federal Way just as that bad salesperson doesn't equal Yvon and his company. For details on the sale, there was a great article by Krakauer appearing in Outside, about when it happened in 1989. I'm sure you'll take great pleasure in noting I can't give you a link to the specific issue and article--Outside online has not archived their mag for issues before 1992. Bottom line, there were 3 lawsuits pending vs. Chouinard Equipment. Each of the 3 had to do with user-error, NOT company error. Yvon took his lawyer's advice to settle each of the 3 pending suits, and separate/protect his real cash cow--Patagonia--by selling majority ownership of Chouinard Equipment. He sold to his employees. Don't know if he still owns a portion, but his employees--with I think Peter Metcalf as head that whole time--have been managing it since, of course having renamed the company Black Diamond. I thought Yvon did a great job of running Chouinard Equipment, and think Metcalf and the employees are doing even better with BD. May PP rest in peace. -pindude Quote from my first post to this thread: “I have virtually no experience with the new BD because of an experience I had with the old company.” Quote from my second post to this thread: “The representative was a "factory trained" representative form CA.” Pinhead – My first post made clear my dealings were with the company in question. The second must have been misleading. My intent was to indicate that my contact was an “Chouinard” employee from California. He was not a salesperson at a third party retailer. Sorry if I confused you. I should note that we (the contact) were acquaintances although by no means good friends. I have no reason to think he was out and out trying to deceive me. So even if he was mistaken it is quite shocking that an employee would believe such a thing about his employer. I should note that my replacement hammer was not the same style as the first (slightly longer shaft) and yet it began to break soon too. The fact that it too began to break shortly after use is certainly strong corroborative evidence that the engineering was poor on this item. By the way my first hammer broke while placing an anchor at the top of an aid pitch during an FA. Thank God for Zip lines! Also I currently do not and never have lived in Federal Way or for that matter south of I-90 ( at least in Washington). Dwayner and Erik are making me rethink the Tacoma experience. As far as holding YC responsible certainly during a period of lawsuits and risk assessment the production of a faulty hammer should have been brought to his attention. If not, then he is more of a goofball than I imagine. Sadly you appear to know next to nothing as to the details of the formation of BD. You couldn’t even state whether it was a stock transaction or a sale of company assets. For someone who gives others the grade “F” you are certainly silly. I have no problem holding you to your own standard which you happen to fall woefully short of. I entered this as merely relating my experiences in a pub club online environment not a organized debate. To give me an “F” is plainly ridiculous. While others may engage in sport calumny on this site, I am being sincere and honest. Peter

No but that is where PP is buried. May he rest in peace. Pinhead - Relax. As far as it being the "same" company I am not familiar with the legalities of the "sale." I wouldn't mind if you filled me in tho. Quote from pinhead <<a suspect and fallacious example.>> It is simply true. Unlike Freeclimb I am reporting something from my direct experience. The representative was a "factory trained" representative form CA. You may think it suspect but your suspicions do not change the facts. I never quoted a mag article. Take it as you will. I would ask, how assuming the example is true, it is fallacious? I guess I should say how is my assertion fallacious or not supported by my example. Sadly they gave me a new blue handled hammer soon its head began to separate too.

Funny thing this thread started with positive comments directed at the old GPIW and related companies. Now it seems as tho the old Chouinard owned company is being slammed and yet the BD defenders think the new company is being slammed. Freeclimb seems to be complaining about the old company. I have virtually no experience with the new BD because of an experience I had with the old company. The old Chouinard owned company, despite the old man's assertions of quality, made some real shit and after knowing it was shit did continue to sell the stuff even after production was discontinued. Eg: the old blue handled piton/ice hammer. I took back a hammer sans head and was told by an employee that they were aware of the problem and going back to wood after their inventory ran out. After hearing that I figured anyone who thinks that YC deserves respect was a total goofball. Imagine selling as an ice tool/piton hammer something you knew had defect that caused it to break. Call me a liar Pindude but in fact it is the truth. It also has nothing to do with the modern Black Diamond. Just adding my rant to the world.

Anyone ever doen Gold Bar Girls or Claus Von Bewlow? Haven't heard much about them so my guess is they are dirty.

Damn! Too much whining on the site today. Going back to my themes of last week (lists -already did Leavenworth): Any specific recommendations for Scott at Index?

For me your average basic chicken, I think that the “they fit in a wider ranger so the higher weight/unit is offset by the fact that you carry less” argument is somewhat bogus. The number of pieces I want to place on a given pitch is set by the difficulty of the climbing. Only rarely am I unable to get a piece in the general vicinity of my desired location. Thus the size of my rack (most often) doesn’t really decrease when the range of each piece increases. This might change at other areas but for most Washington crags I find it true.

I can never keep up with you guys

Who is the he in his. And should it be capitalized?

Take all the ratings in that area, at least for the cracks, with a big grain of salt. For example compare them to Butcher of Bagdad (at least I think thats the name: a bolt protected stemming climb.)just to their left. BoB is a very good climb steming and a cross between face holds and little jams.

One more thing a route you never want to bivi on:Regular NW face route on Half Dome

Oops! I forgot to mention bivouacs are a cool way to avoid those damn early starts! PP

Well said Roger! Being high on a climb and seeing a new day dawn is a great experience. With that said here are a couple of great bivi sites. Note if you use these site you will be awarded with a great time but your climbing prowess will be in question. 1. Ledge at the bottom of the last pitch of Space Shot in Zion. Your friends will wonder about you but in good weather its just like a sleep in the campground. The ground is but minutes away (an easy a1 pitch with trivial free climbing and a few rappels but being its fun as hell. It took alot of persuading to get my partner to agree to this one!) 2. Big Ledge on NE Buttress of Sleese. In early season make snow cones and check out the BIG face. Super cool location. Again your friends will think you wimpy. Ayway I say Bivuoacs Away!

I agree with those saying buy some TCUs. One thing to remember about all the talk concerning wieght is that for most Icicle climbs, in fact most climbs in general, it is really not going to be a big factor. PP

Hey there is no culture growing in my arms! I am squeeky clean. Bobinc - Maybe it's why we have time to post!

What's a "Chica" A new burrito treat?

“Porr Spelling and grammer reflect porly on are sport” Is there some way to possibly put a spell check feature in? CC.comers [myself included] seem to be handicapped with regard to basic spelling and grammar. While in such a congenial forum such as this only a bore would condemn another on the basis of such errors, my concern is with how this reflects on the “climbing community.” At least we need the ability to correct/modify topic titles after they have been created. Please the NPS, the Forest Service, various unions and others are watching us. How will we be judged.

Ok Indulge me. Those concerned with "fairness" please help me to understand you rposition what does fair mean. I didn't seem to read the definition for unacceptable. But surely such a critical keystone of yoru argument must have an unequivocal defintion.

Good question Dru! So do I need to bring along one of the gun toting CCers to deal with those pesky bears?

I didn't say anyone has to be nice. I just had a crush on Allison since she use one of my favorite words (deign)an now my fantsay bubble has burst. [ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]