Peter_Puget

I am in the minority but I say consider the old style friends. The are cheap and robust enough to last the rest of your climbing days. If you can get to MEC you can get them plenty cheap. In the smaller sizes tho the flexible cam does come in handy more often than the larger sizes.

I agree with David W that a wide range of opinions and participants in the discussion can only improve the quality of the debate. I say address the argument not the resume! PP

Peter[/qb] Peter, that sounds like some of my B.S. I know but I couldn't resist poking fun. But thanks for adding the following two points. After making my post I neglected to mention these closley related factors. "if the quality of the pitch warrants the attention of many climbers" "is the line going to be of such quality that a bolt seems worth it?" Unlike you I do not believe that a sample of the climbing population should be queried. The difficulty of obtaining a proper sample aside, putting in a bolt doesn't seem such a difficult a decsion. If constructive criticsim and firendly feedback is given as just part of the general enviroment I believe that most people would make the right choice. Those who are renagades will always be a problem. Of course Pope and I also agree that top ropes can be groovy too. PP

Off- Isn't "chicken" in the phrase "chicken bolt" redundent? Oh and be careful Mr. Anderson hates it when his careful topologies are critiqued. Peter

For the record, my thread on bolting wasn't a troll either. I wanted to know how the gang felt about bolting that was perhaps thoughtfully executed. Now I know that they really don't care, which is a good thing. It's hard to stay dry around here sometimes, what with all of the spray.

Now where does this anger come from? Richard makes a simple post and gets slammed. A simple PM will get you the name of my therapist she worked wonders for Dwayner and me.

I read up all winter (Samuel, Delwen "Investigation of Ancient Egyptian Baking and Brewing Methods by Correlative Microscopy" Science July 1996, v273, n5274, pg. 488) and will be waiting at the finish line with the results - so Go Dwayner Go!. Petey [ 07-24-2002, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Ah Richard, Thanks for the obviously well thought out query. I would say that the true "trad" ascent is onsight, groundup, placing own pro (to the extent possible - ie if there is fixed gear parties subsequent to the FA can clip that and still be legit.) Therefore in my eyes you did a trad ascent on aid for the FA. Subsequent ascents by you were simply not in compliance with what I believe you mean by "trad". Can you place a bolt on after leading it? I say sure. If you feel it is needed to provide adequate pro go for it. Remember that some people regually free solo onsite climbs harder than most CC.comers can climb on their best day so if the criteria against placing the bolt is only that the route "can be free climbed by someone without the fixed gear" virtually all routes won't fixed gear. Another thng to consider is that you spent two days cleaning the route; after a year will those RP placements still be viable? Probably not. I view it this way: by asserting yourself and taking public property in order to make the FA you have a broader responsibilty to make the route resonably safe and climbable for everyone. That doesn't mean a bolt every four feet, but certainly the normal effects of the normal accumulation of dirt on the nut placements should be considered. PP More routes please!

Goofballs this TR should be on top. So ML, friends tell me this route blows Sleese away. Do you agree. This route almost inspires me to try a real mountain again.

Is it the balance between Yin and Yang - Between Light and Dark - Between Good and Evil - Between the Sacred and the Profane that necessitates that every thread such as "NR:Direct of Bear TR" be offset by one such as "Day or two of rock"? Something cosmic must be going on! [ 07-23-2002, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: poptart ]

Bad rock and me don't mix! By the way Sleese except for the very top was pretty solid. Just that the climbing wasn't what I was imagining looking at that ridge. One thing with a car shuttle the descent was pretty straight forward - no funky stuff to give a non-mountaineer type the shivers. Have your friend post some pics of Gimli!

Thanks for the info. My memories of Sleese are limited to the amazing bivi spot. The climbing was not even close to being the quality I was expecting. Everyone seems to concurr with your opinion of the better climbing on Bear. Now post some pics guys! Draw up a topo! Office bound minds need to know!

this poptart would suggest that you smoke a bowl, it might just raise your IQ to the level of conversation required to say something halfway useful, or are you another one of these little kids posting here to feel like a grownup?

Poptart was being entirely serious in the post that started the thread. Sometimes there's so much hot air around here about bolting that it feels like the inside of a toaster. The thread started in Spray to save the moderators from having to move it to Spray, where most anti-bolt threads end up anyway. Now some pastry puts up a serious question about bolting and all of the anti-bolt spraylords clam up. What's up with that?

Dwayner - Keep you hands off my biners! (or as you like to call them my "booty") I need all of them for my next sport climb. Speaking of sport, as far as those sports bras, go ahead and keep them, they never really fit right any how. By the way, for the rest of you here is a picture of Dwayner relaxing after one of our marathon counseling sessions: Don't ask where,'cause we aren't telling until we pick all the plums!

Peggy ROCKS!!!! And she climbs at Index and bags peaks like no ones business! And I have had had a secret crush on her for years but....she's married. PP

Poptart is a complex overprocessed food product. Poptart has deep thoughts about things other than getting in your toaster. Poptart sees that both ehmmic and hikerwa have frosting in their hair. How did it get there?

Tried it once aid climbing - it sucks. First it doesn't really work that smoothly. It is right where I didn't need more stuff around my body. f it didn't catch right away I thought: would it just melt away if it started to catch. No one I know who solo climbs roped uses this system. I have some friends who are pretty happy with the silent partner. PP

Last weekend, a new line was bolted somewhere in Washington. The pitch is 100’ long, and has eight bolts and one gear placement below the anchors. It is more that fifteen feet from any other route. The route was climbed by two climbers, several times each, before the bolt placements were finalized. The bolts were placed in accordance with local area ethics, and no bolt was placed near a protectable feature. The area is not a sacrifical chosspile. With all of the hoo-hah and anti-bolting rhetoric we see on this board, did these bolters do something that might warrant a visit from the Bolt Police? If not, then why? If so, then why? Poptart has a strong suspicion the Bolt Police may be anti- bad bolting, not simply anti-bolting. I have to go get in the toaster now. Talk among yourselves.

Climbed these routes years ago so memory may be fading. APESVILLE: - Good pro with nuts. Climbed it before TCUs. At that time it was a bit dirty. The climb is one hard (strenuous not technical) move around lip of first roof. Good secure finger jams. MONKEY LIP: The section past the first roof is protected by KBs/Bugaboos. (almost entirely fixed) Years ago they were kinda shitty looking. The route, unlike Apesville, doesn't just directly climb through the roof but attacks it more indirectly. Not to start a controversy but a couple of stainless bolts would make this an instant classic. It was a bit dirty too. Both routes belay shortly above the first roof. I have only climbed the right hand break past the second roof. I believe that this is Apesville, as the routes cross each other. The pitch is a bit more go for it as there is a distinct possibility of hitting the slab below if you blow it. It too is dirty. Having done this once when climbing Monkey Lip when I climbed Apesville we decided to escape by climbing a ramp up and left. I think you could also move right and continue up to Logger's Ledge if you wanted to. Is that 5.11a you are thinking of Hangdog? I hardly remember it. It was ok pro kinda funky. I Tr'd it before leading it so I can't say what is would be like onsight. I remember it being an easy .11a. The crux might be getting past a small roof at the bottom? Sorry not a memorable route. PP

Originally posted by Peter Puget: ...The comments regarding Retro's son were directed at Retro not his son... Originally posted by Retro in response to the above quote: "This is total bullshit; it was directed at my son with the intent of injuring me." Sadly mitch we continue disagree on this. His statement was clearly directed at you while referencing your son. Seems like he hit more of a goldmine than he intended. Originally posted by Peter Puget: ...Since before the current "offensive" post you already sized him up as a wimpy asshole, how can any of you now complain when your constant harassment of him elicited an "offensive" response... Originally posted by Retro in response to the above quote: "Because I have never harrassed scot'trix. This was unprovoked. All I did was provide the info that he was looking for. And he was foolish enough to attack the one thing that I value more than life itself. If you want to get fucked up, this is the way.'" Quote by Retro before Scott posted his off4nsive message: "The route can be protected with traditional gear and should have not been bolted for the convenience of the inept [i.e. scot'teryx]." Refer to my earlier post regarding coherency. It should be noted that in the excerpt Retro referenced the "you" was not directed solely at Retro but at the entire group of guys seemingly so upset at poor Scott. Relax Mitch Life really isn't so bad.

Quote from Mattp that I was agreeing with: "I'm more-or-less with Off on this one – both of his posts. So Scott said something offensive. Sure, he ought to be ashamed of himself (maybe he is) and an apology would be most welcome. And I agree that children are special so there is something particularly offensive in his remark." Quote from Retro claiming I was defending Scott: "PP, MK, whatever, Back from the moral and ethical void to defend the likes of scot'whatever" Why does it not surprise me that most (including this quoted post) of what Mitch says has no logical coherency? PP

I agree with Mattp on this one. The comments regarding Retro's son were directed at Retro not his son. Certainly a young child wouldn't be reading this BB in any event. Since before the current "offensive" post you already sized him up as a wimpy asshole, how can any of you now complain when your constant harassment of him elicited an "offensive" response. I have to call BS on the sudden attention to gentleness. BTW - Out of lurking mode to say Hi to my buddy Dwayner! PP

[ 06-20-2002, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Thanks for your support Pope I needed it. But pull you pants up the whole castrati thing is a bit out there. Truly Mattp is trying to stear the ship steady and yet I wonder is it worth it? Over one year ago I began posting in a series of posts being as steady as Mattp. Someone even told me once "Peter your nice guy methods will get you know where." After awhile I agreed but still remained reactive. How many routes are there at the Pearly Gates? 30, 40, 50? So two have suspect bolts. Hardly an epidemic. If more people posted here then perhaps we'd have more of a consensus. As it is One man shouts witch and the rest scream burn her! The first post on this thread stated something to the effect of "I'm not trying to start a flame war" Are we really to believe that? Syz writes:that Viktor is bolting cracks expresssly to create a market for new books. Later he changes his story. Did he ever talk to Viktor? I say Mattp send a pm to Viktor ask him how many negative comments he has recieved and out of those how many came from cc.com. I bet almost none have. But how many jerks have come online and slammed him and/or his friends. Hey listen up guys those insults are personal and they aren't limited to those in Leavenworth. Mattp, I await your report. Pope will you have sent him a note with your concerns? I doubt it. Sad. Sad. Sad.